SWA/AAI and the flight deck jumpseat

[waveflyer]

That was eloquent humvee- but that's not the point. You said if the SLI doesn't meet your expectations that the whole thing could be a "unlucky" turn of events. ...

Seriously?

Bc that's as ridiculous as any of us saying the same thing. Getting to FLY for one of the most admired companies anywhere AND be well paid is never an unlucky event. Most of us are slugging it out having to fly for the most inept and ridiculous companies to stay in our career. Of which Air Tran was one. Remember you were saving for a strike/

Ty- you are bringing your jobs- but unless you're asking for a fence over them, then you aren't considering that we're bringing a LOT more jobs and a better company who is paying you a LOT more. To be integrated evenly into our jobs is a better benefit to y'all then us gaining access to yours-
Says the guy west of the rockies.

 

[humveedriver]

That was eloquent humvee- but that's not the point. You said if the SLI doesn't meet your expectations that the whole thing could be a "unlucky" turn of events. ...

Seriously?

Bc that's as ridiculous as any of us saying the same thing. Getting to FLY for one of the most admired companies anywhere AND be well paid is never an unlucky event. Most of us are slugging it out having to fly for the most inept and ridiculous companies to stay in our career. Of which Air Tran was one. Remember you were saving for a strike/

Ty- you are bringing your jobs- but unless you're asking for a fence over them, then you aren't considering that we're bringing a LOT more jobs and a better company who is paying you a LOT more. To be integrated evenly into our jobs is a better benefit to y'all then us gaining access to yours-
Says the guy west of the rockies.

Wave, I'm sure you are painfully aware that I had nothing to do with this acquisition. I know exactly how you guys feel. The view from my foxhole is not that different than your own. It's all about preserving as much bidding power as possible. At the end of the day all any of us want to do is to be able to bid those days off that we need to make our wife/kid happy (well those are my reasons..eveyone has their own). It really doesn't matter if the SLI meets my expectations or not. I'm going to make the best out any situation, because that's how I roll. I got your point though. FWIW, I don't think our strike vote is a valid argument. We were trying to make AirTran a better place. We were trying to help our F/O's. I don't think there is a single airline pilot out there who doesn't understand and respect what that strike vote represented for us and the industry as a whole.

 

[scoreboardII]

I FWIW, I don't think our strike vote is a valid argument. .

FWIW, it is a very valid argument showing the conditions you were working under at the moment of snapshot.

A group who had had enough with their current employer and where willing to job action to get their point across. How can you not see that as relevant?

 

[humveedriver]

FWIW, it is a very valid argument showing the conditions you were working under at the moment of snapshot.

A group who had had enough with their current employer and where willing to job action to get their point across. How can you not see that as relevant?

That's called damned if you do and damned if you don't.

 

[scoreboardII]

I agree with your pilot groups rationale, but your not answering why the strike vote is an invalid argument to show the state of AT pilots employment prospects.

In fact, you are bolstering my point by stating "damned if you do, damned if you don't", that shows you had no other choice and details the conditions you worked under.

So, again, why is the strike vote irrelevant?

 

[Ty Webb]

I agree with your pilot groups rationale, but your not answering why the strike vote is an invalid argument to show the state of AT pilots employment prospects.

I can't believe you wrote this. How much airline industry do you have, outside of SWA?

What about a Fedex job . . . A UPS job, a job at pre-9/11 Delta? Crappy jobs, huh? Must have been. Those pilots took strike votes, too.

The more times you bring it up, the more you look the fool.

 

[humveedriver]

I think I am just looking at it differently than you are. I am looking at it as an example of our unity and our dedication to make AT a better workplace. You are saying "look how bad it was there". We finally got our act together and took a stand. If you say it's relevant, so be it. It was a pretty defining moment though for a pilot group that had been through alot.

 

[27 driver]

Truth is that none of us know what the arbitrators will consider in our situation. It's been said many times here before that every integration is different and brings unique dynamics to play. Will it be pay, longevity, seats, career expectations, future growth, awesome points, etc.? There will be a panel of three and they could all look at different criteria to formulate their decision. In the end they will solve any unresolved issues and we will move on....good, bad or indifferent. At least I will. I assume most others will as well.

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

That was eloquent humvee- but that's not the point. You said if the SLI doesn't meet your expectations that the whole thing could be a "unlucky" turn of events. ...

Seriously?

Bc that's as ridiculous as any of us saying the same thing. Getting to FLY for one of the most admired companies anywhere AND be well paid is never an unlucky event. Most of us are slugging it out having to fly for the most inept and ridiculous companies to stay in our career. Of which Air Tran was one. Remember you were saving for a strike/

Ty- you are bringing your jobs- but unless you're asking for a fence over them, then you aren't considering that we're bringing a LOT more jobs and a better company who is paying you a LOT more. To be integrated evenly into our jobs is a better benefit to y'all then us gaining access to yours-
Says the guy west of the rockies.

There are a few scenarios that could make this an unlucky event for different demographics of our pilot group for different reasons. I guess we are all rediculous to some degree.

As far as bringing jobs to add to the greater number of jobs you already have, to make even more jobs, that's a true statement. However, the "better company that is paying us a lot more" (your words) isn't coming from you as much as the mgmt that has promoted the culture that you enjoy. If it weren't for their mgmt style, you'd be sluggin it out like the rest of us.

It is refreshing to hear some of your own espouse being "lucky" to have been hired by WN. Why is OK for them to be lucky to be hired, but it's a curse for the FL guys to be lucky enough to be bought out by WN? Most of us from both sides of the fence would rather be lucky than good any day .

 

[scoreboardII]

I can't believe you wrote this. How much airline industry do you have, outside of SWA? more than you tiger, since 79.

What about a Fedex job . . . A UPS job, a job at pre-9/11 Delta? Crappy jobs, huh? Must have been. Those pilots took strike votes, too. And they still work there...

The more times you bring it up, the more you look the fool.

The only fool here is the fulltime property manager playing partime airline pilot.

The discussion is why was the strike vote irrelevant, not the state of how sucky or unsucky it was to work. You read to much between the lines. I think it is a relevant point, you don't, we'll see.

 

[Ty Webb]

The only fool here is the fulltime property manager playing partime airline pilot.

The discussion is why was the strike vote irrelevant, not the state of how sucky or unsucky it was to work. You read to much between the lines. I think it is a relevant point, you don't, we'll see.

I guess your "answer", when you don't have one, is to try to take it personal . . . try to "out" me, huh? What a pathetic little chicken ******************** you are.

I'm not a property manager, but I do develop commercial websites. Something you might want to take into consideration the next time you want to "out" someone. Might want to check with your "sources" a little better next time. . . .

 

[miles otoole]

However, the "better company that is paying us a lot more" (your words) isn't coming from you as much as the mgmt that has promoted the culture that you enjoy. If it weren't for their mgmt style, you'd be sluggin it out like the rest of us.

Bingo-summed up perfectly. You could transpose every Airtran/Spirit/AAI/US/AW pilot with every pilot ever hired at SW and you would have the exact same company, thanks to the business model and some hedging decisions. For some reason they think they have a unique skill set.

 

[redflyer65]

Will it be pay, longevity, seats, career expectations, future growth,

These are the things that Ty thinks is just 'anecdotal'. That will have no relevance on the SLI. I believe most AAI pilots know better than that and understand why.

Everything is on the table and will be argued before the panel..

1- Huge strike vote at AAI
2- Huge pay and QOL (ie career expecations) between the two carriers.
3- Number of AAI pilot applications on file.
4- Seniority of pilots that jumped ship from AAI to SW.
5- Number of SW pilots with apps on file at AAI.
6- How many actual SW pilots made that move.
7- The senitment of 'High Fiving' AAI pilots when the deal was announced.
8- Even 'Please Buy and staple us' post on this website will be brought up.
9- Difference in hiring standards at both carriers. (type rating, PIC time)

If you think a list this long is just 'antecdotal', I think you might be mistaken.

Wouldn't the AAI guys argue all of this if the roles were reversed? Of course they would. This is a huge gap for the arbitor to award anything close to realitive seniority.

 

[Lear70]

So, again, why is the strike vote irrelevant?

Well, I'll take a bite at that, just for grins and giggles...

It's irrelevant because it never matured into a strike or even into a release into a cooling off period, which could have resulted in a contract without a strike as well at the 11th hour.

The point is that you can't play "worst case scenario" without also admitting the possibility of the "best case scenario" (where we get our current CBA without a strike) and that won't fly in trying to argue using a strike vote as a "negative career expectation" outlook for AAI pilots. Too many carriers have held successful strike votes and have never gone on strike to attempt to paint it as a "doomsday scenario" for that airline.

So yes, it's irrelevant. You *DO* have *MANY* arguments that work in your favor, such as number of retirements, slightly higher age group pilots in the CA seats, higher career expectation in total income (yes, I said money will be a factor - maybe not as much as some think, but it's a factor), and some other items, too. We bring our own advantages as well, such as our international growth that was needed and deliveries, and it will all be submitted, weighed, and decided, without our input from the FI peanut gallery.

In the end, something fair will happen. In the meantime, I know the waiting sucks...

 

[Ty Webb]

I think you should go with those.

 

[dicko]

These are the things that Ty thinks is just 'anecdotal'. That will have no relevance on the SLI. I believe most AAI pilots know better than that and understand why.

Everything is on the table and will be argued before the panel..

1- Huge strike vote at AAI
2- Huge pay and QOL (ie career expecations) between the two carriers.
3- Number of AAI pilot applications on file.
4- Seniority of pilots that jumped ship from AAI to SW.
5- Number of SW pilots with apps on file at AAI.
6- How many actual SW pilots made that move.
7- The senitment of 'High Fiving' AAI pilots when the deal was announced.
8- Even 'Please Buy and staple us' post on this website will be brought up.
9- Difference in hiring standards at both carriers. (type rating, PIC time)

If you think a list this long is just 'antecdotal', I think you might be mistaken.

Wouldn't the AAI guys argue all of this if the roles were reversed? Of course they would. This is a huge gap for the arbitor to award anything close to realitive seniority.

I really don't know where to start Red. Its actually very funny.

I'll put it this way. If your lawyer stands up in that room and starts talking about; "somebody saw some AirTran pilots highfiving at an airport". I'll give you $ 100.00.

Are you high ? Please tell me you are closely associated with, or on your MC.

 

[waveflyer]

Bingo-summed up perfectly. You could transpos every Airtran/Spirit/AAI/US/AW pilot with every pilot ever hired at SW and you would have the exact same company, thanks to the business model and some hedging decisions. For some reason they think they have a unique skill set.

Not unique skill sets, but unique work ethics, attitudes, and people, yes. And absolutely not- you cannot plug just anyone into this model. Hence our worries about the culture. That said I do believe most AT guys will fit in if they don't get poisoned by the SLI as ALPA's out the door.

Swa's philos has always been you can train the job, but not the attitude and person. Many many airlines made their pilots selfish and bitter, so I get your point. But I have too many friends who have always thought certain things swa pilots do are beneath them- ie: cleaning up, getting strollers, pushing wheelchairs- and if not- let the union infect them with a 'not my job' attitude.
I agree that much has to do w/ mgmt- but it really doesn't work with just anyone who doesn't care.

 

[ivauir]

The more times you bring it up, the more you look the fool.

The more you resort to name calling the more you reveal of your true nature.

 

[Music]

Blah!!

Not unique skill sets, but unique work ethics, attitudes, and people, yes. And absolutely not- you cannot plug just anyone into this model. Hence our worries about the culture. That said I do believe most AT guys will fit in if they don't get poisoned by the SLI as ALPA's out the door.

Swa's philos has always been you can train the job, but not the attitude and person. Many many airlines made their pilots selfish and bitter, so I get your point. But I have too many friends who have always thought certain things swa pilots do are beneath them- ie: cleaning up, getting strollers, pushing wheelchairs- and if not- let the union infect them with a 'not my job' attitude.
I agree that much has to do w/ mgmt- but it really doesn't work with just anyone who doesn't care.

Wave,

Everything you sight above, we have done and continue to do. Ironically, the 'culture' that you speak of is nowhere to be found here on this site from SWA pilots. I guess that's because you don't want your 'gene pool' to be tainted by our group of wheel chair pushers and stroller retrievers!

 

[greenpilot]

The strike vote will not matter. Let's take a look at the DAL/NWA merger. How many times did NWA take strike votes? How many times did NWA go on strike? If a strike vote made a difference NWA would have been stapled to the bottom of delta's list.

 

[ASADFW7]

Flightirrelevant and the 400th wave of the pecking order for this deal, it is getting old. Hey is anyone actually being disrespectful on
The jumpseat ?

 

[jball2]

With the exception of two AAI captains, everyone has been EXCEPTIONAL! I am sure we have had a few guys push the limits of good taste as well. I won't hold those two bad apples against an entire group though. One of them really wasn't that bad, he was just VERY cocky and young. The other was an old guy who just had to "tell me how things are gonna be" from his positoin of having me captive on the JS. His FO was a great guy and made up for him.

 

[Dan Roman]

I really don't know where to start Red. Its actually very funny.

I'll put it this way. If your lawyer stands up in that room and starts talking about; "somebody saw some AirTran pilots highfiving at an airport". I'll give you $ 100.00.

Are you high ? Please tell me you are closely associated with, or on your MC.

LOL, I'll add $100 if they bring up what some anonymous poster put on a public web board that anyone can join says!!
Perhaps you guys better come up with so more posts identifying yourself as an AirTran pilot and you want to be stapled, that could change everything for the whole industry when it comes with how to deal with mergers!

 

[texman]

There are a few scenarios that could make this an unlucky event for different demographics of our pilot group for different reasons. I guess we are all rediculous to some degree.

As far as bringing jobs to add to the greater number of jobs you already have, to make even more jobs, that's a true statement. However, the "better company that is paying us a lot more" (your words) isn't coming from you as much as the mgmt that has promoted the culture that you enjoy. If it weren't for their mgmt style, you'd be sluggin it out like the rest of us.

It is refreshing to hear some of your own espouse being "lucky" to have been hired by WN. Why is OK for them to be lucky to be hired, but it's a curse for the FL guys to be lucky enough to be bought out by WN? Most of us from both sides of the fence would rather be lucky than good any day .

The people are the culture, not mgt. Mgt is a title. We all own it.

 

[Bob Dylan]

How many SWA pilots had apps on file for AirTran? Zip, zilch, nada!

How many Trannies had apps on file for Southwest? Hundreds, possibly thousands.

This is what an arbitrator will look at. Heck, trannies were begging to be stapled a day before the acquisition was announced.

This is the biggest thing an arbitrator will consider.

 

[Ty Webb]

How many SWA pilots had apps on file for AirTran? Zip, zilch, nada!

How many Trannies had apps on file for Southwest? Hundreds, possibly thousands.

This is what an arbitrator will look at. Heck, trannies were begging to be stapled a day before the acquisition was announced.

This is the biggest thing an arbitrator will consider.

Bob . . . . I'm being equally serious here:

Did someone drop you on your head when you were little?


C'mon . . . . Talk to Ty. . . . . .


:nuts:

 

[miles otoole]

Wave,

Everything you sight above, we have done and continue to do. Ironically, the 'culture' that you speak of is nowhere to be found here on this site from SWA pilots. I guess that's because you don't want your 'gene pool' to be tainted by our group of wheel chair pushers and stroller retrievers!

Exactly-every airline pilot pushes strollers/wheelchairs, etc when able. Funny thing is, I have many, many buds who are furloughed AA, UA, and CAL who got hired at SW and all say they work no harder or serve the customer any less than when they were at their previous jobs. The general feedback is "Anyone could do this job (SW). You just do the job you were hired to do." Sorry Wave, in the interview, everyone exudes the "luv." Not one person has ever been asked to leave because they found out they "just didn't have it" once on the line.

 

[miles otoole]

The people are the culture, not mgt. Mgt is a title. We all own it.

LOL-makes for a really cool tshirt saying. Herb was the "culture." The SW success comes from the business model. Do you really believe you have special HR people to secretly screen real "people people?" Microsoft also still believes they are the best high-tech company in the industry because of their "people and culture." Think about it.

 

[SWA/FO]

Ty what info can you get from an IP address? Inquiring minds want to know? Do you know everyone on flightinfo.com. Also, did you ever interview at SW, UAL, AA, FDX, UPS etc.

After SLI, what is your "dream base" including ATL. 9 bases to choose from?

thanks.

 

[scoreboardII]

I guess your "answer", when you don't have one, is to try to take it personal . . . try to "out" me, huh? What a pathetic little chicken ******************** you are.

I'm not a property manager, but I do develop commercial websites. Something you might want to take into consideration the next time you want to "out" someone. Might want to check with your "sources" a little better next time. . . .

I guess you didn't see the smiley thingy?

Thou doth protest to much...