SWA/AAI and the flight deck jumpseat

[Bob Dylan]

What demographics? Why don't you just spit out what you want to say. Let's hear it. Go Charlie Sheen on us. Tell us about your supposed superiority. Just go heavy on the blood, hookers and coke . . . . keep it interesting.

Hmm, did anyone ever leave AirTran for Southwest? Did anyone ever leave Southwest to go to AirTran?

 

[miles otoole]

Did anyone ever leave Southwest to go to AirTran?

The many without college degrees weren't qualified.

 

[Lear70]

Not trying to get between you two kiddos but I THINK what he's saying is that the Airtran pilot group is, on average, 10 YEARS younger than WN.

A lot of it (in the late 90's to early 2000 range years) was that AirTran didn't have a great reputation through the 90's, and was considered a stepping stone airline, so we got a lot of younger pilots who either just met the minimums or were only slightly above it (this was the hiring boom for many other airlines as well, and the older, more highly-experienced pilots were getting snapped up by the Delta's, United's, and SWA of course).

Contract 2000 improved pay and work rules to a degree where it could be a career airline (especially after all the bankruptcies post-9/11 brought SNB wages down), AirTran had been taking all our 717 deliveries and was just starting to gear up heavy on the 737 deliveries, guys started upgrading in 4-5 years, and only THEN did it start getting the attention of the highly experienced pilots (and correspondingly older ages). By about 2004-2005 the resume stack was thick with the same people who were applying to SWA, Delta, NWA, CAL, etc., across all age groups, and AirTran was able to pick and choose.

About that time it looks like HR started taking a much larger cross-section of age groups, and was mixing the age groups so you wouldn't have a mass bulk of retirements all at the same time, which is why in the last 5 years you've seen Delta early retirees and late 20-somethings fresh out of the regionals and just about everything in between, although I believe the average class age is 35 or so the last couple years.

This is why nearly the entire bottom 50% of our Captain seniority list is in their early 40's / mid- to late- 30's. Couldn't tell you how often my first 2 years here I flew with a CA who was younger than me with about half my total time and experience. It's just a function of who had been hired in the last couple years before the big growth spurt in the late 90's. Same thing actually happened at SWA about 20-25 years ago, if you look at your demographics, although those guys are all in their mid- to late 50's now and comprise most of your CA list.

In short, I don't think it's that AAI HR deliberately hires younger (I actually think they look for a good cross-section for ages, as much as they say they don't take it into account, you know how life really works for EEOC stuff). I think you're just seeing the sequence of events of how AAI staffed back when it was tough to get applicants in the late 90's to just pre-9/11.

That will/should/could factor into the whole career expectation thingy.

Gup

Absolutely. You can't argue that your retirement numbers are dramatically higher than ours and that the majority of our pilots will have, on average, 5-7 more years of working productivity than yours. It's just simple math, and I'm sure will factor into the equation, but again, that's above my pay grade.

 

[Ty Webb]

Hmm, did anyone ever leave AirTran for Southwest? Did anyone ever leave Southwest to go to AirTran?

No one cares . . . . except you!

Mr. Irrelevant. :laugh:

 

[ivauir]

What demographics? Why don't you just spit out what you want to say. Let's hear it. Go Charlie Sheen on us. Tell us about your supposed superiority. Just go heavy on the blood, hookers and coke . . . . keep it interesting.

Ty,

Your hostility is misplaced, and unwelcome. You will not goad me into responding in kind, if you can't be civil you can continue your "dialog" with Bob and the rest of the usual suspects.

To recap, here is YOUR quote that began this "conversation":

Don't have to wait to be an old fart to enjoy your seniority at AAI. Hell, we had some make CA before they were 30. :laugh:

Southwest doesn't have many make upgrade before they are thirty, and that is not a recent phenomena. As Gup points out we are a markedly older group, and the differing ages of the company's don't explain the difference. I'm just curious how you explain that difference.

 

[Tripower455]

The many without college degrees weren't qualified.

Not that it mattered, since it was a huge downgrade, career wise, but thanks for playing!

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty,

Your hostility is misplaced, and unwelcome. You will not goad me into responding in kind, if you can't be civil you can continue your "dialog" with Bob and the rest of the usual suspects.

To recap, here is YOUR quote that began this "conversation":



Southwest doesn't have many make upgrade before they are thirty, and that is not a recent phenomena. As Gup points out we are a markedly older group, and the differing ages of the company's don't explain the difference. I'm just curious how you explain that difference.

We don't have many, but we have some.

The difference isn't in the employee groups, but in the perspective of the beholder.

You want to seize any little crumb, and hold it over your head like some sort of trophy. It's laughable.

"SEE! They had some guys make Captain by 30!!!!!!"

Nobody cares. Statistical aberrations are irrelevant. It's like the two or three fools on here shrieking with delight because three alleged AirTran FO's were jokingly begging to be bought and stapled on an anonymous message board one drunken night during the height of contract negotiations. . . . . .

Again, nobody cares, but you. Enjoy. It's all yours, big guy. :laugh:

 

[Bob Dylan]

A lot of pilots didn't apply to AirTran, Spirit or other lower tier airlines except as a stepping stone or last resort airline job. I doubt that anyone considered Southwest that type of job.

I recall AirTran pilots on this very forum literally begging to be bought and stapled to Southwest. I guess all the trannies already forgot about that.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Double post.

Ty's a loozer.

 

[jball2]

FYI- Our (SWA) youngest CA will be 35 in Nov. There are only 42 captains in their 30s.

 

[miles otoole]

FYI- Our (SWA) youngest CA will be 35 in Nov. There are only 42 captains in their 30s.

Sounds like a function of growth the past 10 years. Isn't at's upgrade 4-5 years? What's the last ten year growth rate of the fleet for each company? Maybe that would be more telling of expectations.

 

[jball2]

I just looked at AAI's sen. list dated 12/22/09 and there were 127 captains in their 30s. Surely there's more by now. Just posting numbers, not debating.

 

[Lear70]

Sounds like a function of growth the past 10 years. Isn't at's upgrade 4-5 years?

No.

It WAS close to that back in 06-07, but I'm starting year 6 and was about a year and change from upgrade if we'd kept our delivery schedule instead of the airplanes all going to SWA now, so most junior CA is 7-8 years seniority right now versus what, 11-12 at SWA?

 

[scoreboardII]

Absolutely. You can't argue that your retirement numbers are dramatically higher than ours and that the majority of our pilots will have, on average, 5-7 more years of working productivity than yours. It's just simple math, and I'm sure will factor into the equation, but again, that's above my pay grade.

So, based on your previous statements of fair and equitable, it would be fair and equitable to include age of pilot group and years of service remaining in consideration for seniority placement, right?

 

[Lear70]

So, based on your previous statements of fair and equitable, it would be fair and equitable to include age of pilot group and years of service remaining in consideration for seniority placement, right?

I just know that such subjects have come up in SLI arguments in the past with other airlines and have been found relevant if there's a big split that affects retirements and/or career expectation.

If it's just a few years' difference in age once all the data is analyzed, it may not be much of an issue. If the age difference is found to be much more disparate than that? Well, that's up to the MC/NC's and/or arbitrator but yes, I'm sure it will figure in to "fair and equitable", just as it has in all the other recent SLI arbitrations.

 

[redflyer65]

No.

It WAS close to that back in 06-07, but I'm starting year 6 and was about a year and change from upgrade if we'd kept our delivery schedule instead of the airplanes all going to SWA now, so most junior CA is 7-8 years seniority right now versus what, 11-12 at SWA?

Right around 10yrs.

 

[Ty Webb]

A lot of pilots didn't apply to AirTran, Spirit or other lower tier airlines except as a stepping stone or last resort airline job. I doubt that anyone considered Southwest that type of job.

Then you haven't been around very long.

I recall AirTran pilots on this very forum literally begging to be bought and stapled to Southwest. I guess all the trannies already forgot about that.

Bobby, I hope you are a better pilot than you are a propagandist. :laugh:

 

[ivauir]

Ty,

Don't bother complaining about Bod Dylan. If you can't engage in a civil dialog I won't waste my time.

Bu Bye.

 

[Ty Webb]

Same to you.

ivauir This message is hidden because ivauir is on your ignore list.

There. I did something about it. I invite you to do the same.

Regds,
Ty

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

We don't have many, but we have some.

The difference isn't in the employee groups, but in the perspective of the beholder.

You want to seize any little crumb, and hold it over your head like some sort of trophy. It's laughable.

"SEE! They had some guys make Captain by 30!!!!!!"

Nobody cares. Statistical aberrations are irrelevant. It's like the two or three fools on here shrieking with delight because three alleged AirTran FO's were jokingly begging to be bought and stapled on an anonymous message board one drunken night during the height of contract negotiations. . . . . .

Again, nobody cares, but you. Enjoy. It's all yours, big guy. :laugh:

Oh, they were joking? Riiiiight...

 

[Bob Dylan]

Then you haven't been around very long.



Bobby, I hope you are a better pilot than you are a propagandist. :laugh:

You just really need to start being rational. You just hit the lottery big time - we know it, you know it and everyone else knows it too. Don't risk pissing this opportunity away, because I'd bet that all of SWA from the BOD to the CEO on down will not jeopardize their culture for the sake of your greed. They will figure out a way to never include you in the SLI. They all win and you lose.

As you said, place your bets.

 

[SWA/FO]

I don't think Ty is going to like being at Southwest. Some people just are never happy and I think this is the case here.

We have 7000 apps onfile of people that want to be here. People that would die to be in the trannies situation. "lucky" would be the word I would use.

 

[Ty Webb]

Oh, they were joking? Riiiiight...

I don't know if they were or weren't . . . . . and it doesn't matter.

The only persons qualified to speak for AirTran pilots are ATN71 Officers and Executives . . . .

This has already been beaten to death, but three guys on an anonymous message board doesn't mean squat.

Just like Hose, Baghdad Bob and SWA/FOol don't mean squat. :laugh:

 

[Ty Webb]

I don't think Ty is going to like being at Southwest. Some people just are never happy and I think this is the case here.

We have 7000 apps onfile of people that want to be here. People that would die to be in the trannies situation. "lucky" would be the word I would use.

Oh, Lord. . . . . It's pretty obvious why you're not part of the interview process. . . . . . :laugh:

 

[SWA/FO]

Why don't you change your tune a bit Ty? I mean look at Lear70... I actually like reading his posts. I can tell he wants to be here. I'm not sure we have enough room here for your ego.

 

[humveedriver]

I don't think Ty is going to like being at Southwest. Some people just are never happy and I think this is the case here.

We have 7000 apps onfile of people that want to be here. People that would die to be in the trannies situation. "lucky" would be the word I would use.

I think we are lucky if we get a fair shake with the SLI. I don't think being stapled is lucky. That's the only downside I see being bought by a company with a strong balance sheet and senior pilot group. The whole we are better than you thing was bound to be unavoidable. I accept that it is not possible for a SWA pilot to see this any other way other than their own.

 

[waveflyer]

I think we are lucky if we get a fair shake with the SLI. I don't think being stapled is lucky. That's the only downside I see being bought by a company with a strong balance sheet and senior pilot group. The whole we are better than you thing was bound to be unavoidable. I accept that it is not possible for a SWA pilot to see this any other way other than their own.

Why can't a job and a company be better w/o the people involved being compared?
I've said it before- don't find yourself on the Swapa list whether stapled or integrated by any means and think you're not lucky. You are. As am I. None of us are bigger than SWA.

7000 applicants for 100 positions who will be forever stapled to the bottom of ALL of us, ought to tell you this.

 

[humveedriver]

Why can't a job and a company be better w/o the people involved being compared?
I've said it before- don't find yourself on the Swapa list whether stapled or integrated by any means and think you're not lucky. You are. As am I. None of us are bigger than SWA.

7000 applicants for 100 positions who will be forever stapled to the bottom of ALL of us, ought to tell you this.

I think that's a great question. I tried goggling most admired companies and google completed the search for me after i merely typed "most ad". SWA ranks 4th in the world according to Fortune. That's not even against other airlines, that's including ALL major corporations. So without a doubt it is a an honor that SWA bought AirTran. But I don't think it is fair to factor in the pilots to that argument because we are "widgets" in the equation. Once we are hired we have seniority numbers and our advancement is based on that number and not "performance". Imagine if our seniority was evaluated yearly based on our individual on time performances and fuel consumption per leg! Every airline has thousands of applicants for few jobs, it is the nature of the industry. Post 9/11 AT had over 10,000 applicants. When I was job hunting I had my resume in a at least 6 major airlines, make that ALL the majors that were hiring. So SWA bought my airline, I think that is a different ball of wax than being hired off the street. It doesn't make me any less appreciative of the company signing my paycheck or less appreciative of the culture they developed and maintained. Which is the best in the industry. From everything I have read, Corporate SWA is really taking a really positive approach to integrating AT. So we are already getting a glimpse of what you already know. It's just that at the end of the day I think we are both pilots, ATP, type one each and need to respect we ended up at the same place via different paths. You are going to say my path was easier (even though I never sent SWA my app thanks to the terrorists). I suppose thats why there is a process agreement, merger committee and even arbitrators. Because there is no realistic way for either side to say what is fair all on thier own.

 

[Quimby]

I think we are lucky if we get a fair shake with the SLI. I don't think being stapled is lucky. That's the only downside I see being bought by a company with a strong balance sheet and senior pilot group. The whole we are better than you thing was bound to be unavoidable. I accept that it is not possible for any pilot to see this any other way other than their own.

Fixed it for you.

 

[Ty Webb]

. . . . So without a doubt it is a an honor that SWA bought AirTran. But I don't think it is fair to factor in the pilots to that argument because we are "widgets" in the equation. Once we are hired we have seniority numbers and our advancement is based on that number and not "performance". Imagine if our seniority was evaluated yearly based on our individual on time performances and fuel consumption per leg! Every airline has thousands of applicants for few jobs, it is the nature of the industry. Post 9/11 AT had over 10,000 applicants. When I was job hunting I had my resume in a at least 6 major airlines, make that ALL the majors that were hiring. So SWA bought my airline, I think that is a different ball of wax than being hired off the street. . . . . ..

Very well put. I couldn't agree more. . . . . If we were going to be be bought, I'm glad it was SWA, but to imply, as many SWA guys have, that we should be grateful to just walk away from our investment and start over at the bottom is ridiculous. We're not filling a vacancy, we're bringing the jobs with us. Don't like the jobs we're bringing? Think they're beneath you somehow? Don't bid 'em.