Strike in 09 at United is looking real

[ualdriver]

OK...you tell me, if there is a complete shutdown on UAL property...how long do you think the entity will last before there is a BK filing of some sort?

When the cash runs out. If they have as much cash then as they do now, it would be a long time if the planes aren't moving.

How long are the Pilots willing to stay out? If they don't get 100% of what they want...then what will they actually accept?

We'll probably end up settling for something that at least lifts the bar up a little bit for the industry, just like we did with our last contract outside of bankruptcy. I guess we'll have to see how things go at CAL or AMR for starters as we don't even come up to the plate until DEC '09. Regardless, it's going to have to be something that will allow us to remain competitive with our "peers" at certain carriers who will probably do nothing to "raise the bar" on their end and will use any gains the unionized carriers make over the next few years to undercut all of us.

Some guys talk SOS.
Did you know that the last SOS was a complete failure? Some pilot groups didn't even want to get involved.

SOS is a waste of time that will bankrupt its membership. No thanks. It isn't going to happen.

How would you go about getting everyone involved?

Personally, I volunteer and try to use my ALPA committee position to help people with their problems and answer their questions. Of course, ALPA does little to nothing for its membership as implied by many ALPA haters, so of course I do nothing.

 

[Flopgut]

And your way is effectively getting us where?



I am all for innovation and new ways. But in order to change the paradigm we have to get more people involved.

If you want to execute this sister paln you are going to have to educate more members. That means getting them involved. Also once you gain acceptance you have to convince congress. 14% of PAC particaption might owrk... but more PAC contributions will make it easier.



The racist and anti-civil rights advocates wanted allot of people to show up to MLK I have a dream speech?

the British wanted thousands to follow Ghandi on the Salt March? I don't get it?




Because Air Line Pilots love to support Corp America.



Ok... that means get acitive. More guys need to send emails, make phone calls, show up at LEC meetings, pass resolutions, run for office and vote for change. Its called particaption and acitivism!




Agreed! I want new and innovative ways to protect this profession. We can rename ALPA and call it something else! I don't care. But in order to get rid of the old ways we need more pilots involved. Doing nothing is support for the old ways and the status quo!

Rez: A great plan will not be brought about by having a whole bunch of pilots participate. It will take a great plan to get them to participate....Maybe! Th deal is: We all work so much now no one has the time to spare! Your tagline thingy says "no one's ever participated", that's not quite true. Many did once upon a time but we used to fly 30% less hours than we do now. ALPA has to lead. Leadership will have to inspire the group. ALPA is like an abusive spouse, they have to make the change. Guys like you have to stop preaching about traditional union activities and get on board with a new way of doing things. Call ALPA tommorrow and say: "get me somebody to yell at!". Stop with this whinning: pilots won't do what I want em to crap.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez: A great plan will not be brought about by having a whole bunch of pilots participate.

Then how will it be done? Will the defunct leadership do it? Not according to the haters. Your problem is you are not offering any solutions. Or if you do your solution is to wait for the leadership to finally come to its senses. How long are you going to wait?

It will take a great plan to get them to participate....Maybe! Th deal is: We all work so much now no one has the time to spare!

And you think by doing nothing your situation will improve? Do you think management will say.. "you know we didn't realize how much we like you apathetic pilots so we are going to give you more days off so you can do union work..."

Your tagline thingy says "no one's ever participated", that's not quite true. Many did once upon a time but we used to fly 30% less hours than we do now.

So whats the solution? Be indentured servants?

ALPA has to lead. Leadership will have to inspire the group.

Agreed. Does the membership have any responsibility?

ALPA is like an abusive spouse, they have to make the change.

Does the abuser have to stop beating too? My point is there is responsibility on both sides.

Guys like you have to stop preaching about traditional union activities and get on board with a new way of doing things.

Sounds good. what new things do you suggest. [direct request for your input on new things. please reply]

Call ALPA tommorrow and say: "get me somebody to yell at!".

Yelling is for the weak. It closes doors and is regressive. See many pilots just want to slam thier fist on the desk and demand action. It doesn't work this way. Especially when management and gov't have most of the cards.

Stop with this whinning: pilots won't do what I want em to crap.

Whining? I am adovating action, activism, change, innovation and solutions. Oh, I get it.. if you say I'm whining then it will distract from your whining...


Look man, ALPA has big problems but waiting for the leadership to "do the will" of the membership isn't working... is it?

Many of us are trying to make things better by addressing the external and internal problems. Guys like you won't do anything until everything is how you want it to be. What about the other guys that want it the way they want it.... 60,000 guys demanding ALPA be thier own personal career valet....




p.s. ualdriver ...tejas-jet is like minded...

 

[roadrunnerblue]

DAL737FO hit the nail on the head. The PEB will prevent ANY labor group at ANY large legacy carrier from striking. Simple as that.

It's just not a power that an airline union has.

Good luck

This would change if for just once all airline pilots in the US would go out on strike together in solidarity. Even if it is just for 1 day!

God forbid if we had the balls to extend this and were willing to be incarcerated for the common good (and bring this ******************** government to its knees) and forcefeed some respect down their collective throats. No we are our own worst enemies!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

This would change if for just once all airline pilots in the US would go out on strike together in solidarity. Even if it is just for 1 day!

Obviously you haven't been reading these threads. Please provide a detailed and objective analysis of why a SOS would work. Also discuss the APA sick out and PATCO.

God forbid if we had the balls to extend this and were willing to be incarcerated for the common good (and bring this ******************** government to its knees) and forcefeed some respect down their collective throats. No we are our own worst enemies

Everyone wants everyone to fall on thier sward but themselves...

 

[Morning Wood]

Look out for Kasher as well. I don't think there is a pilot at Alaska that thinks we will get a contract before 2009 especially when the company is talking in 2009 economics - Go figure. Why settle anything now when they can delay and keep paying the crappy wages they have in the current contract?

The entire industry just sucks right now. I'm suggesting a National "Call in sick day during the 4th of July holiday." Any takers? ALPA can't support officially due to the rules they operate under, but I think this would give the industry and the public a wakeup call!!

Baja.

Ha. You go first, tough guy. I don't think ALPA or anyone else has the balls to do such a thing. Ask anyone at AA who did just what you suggest and had to pay a great big fine if that tactic worked for them.

 

[PAPA FOX!]

Sorry to be a wet blanket but there is no way any airline of any size is going to be allowed to strike under any administration (Dem or Rep). With recent rulings against unions ability to strike even when their contracts have been thrown out, I doubt management is very scared of that route. I don't think it's right but I think that's the way it's going to be.

The way to work around that is on given random days all flights divert to a suitable alternate several hundred miles from dest. This will wreak just as much havok as a formal strike.

 

[Draginass]

There is no way on earth that the President (ANY president) is going to allow a legal strike. The public could care less about your pay and benefits. They also don't care if the pilots up front are even Americans. All they care about is that THEY get to where they are going on time and on the cheap. The politicians scoff at ALPA because they know the paper tiger is toothless and "fixed."

 

[BOOZENEWS]

Let us not forget the New York Transportation Workers in 2005. They were willing to fight for what they believed in. Their head honcho, Roger Toussaint, was willing to spend some time in jail to make it happen. The end result - the workers got what they deserved/fought for.

You could NEVER expect ALPA to ever even CONSIDER a illegal job action. You can't expect a unix to "grow a pair."

Anyone union leader who is truly a man would be willing to go to jail for 10 days as Mr Toussaint did. (actually 3 days due to good behavior)

10 days is less than HALF of what Paris Hilton is facing!! GROW A PAIR!!

 

[BOOZENEWS]

Also, if any union were smart they would bring attention to the public and make the need for higher pay a SAFETY issue. Play the safety card over and over.

Think about it, you'd pay a doctor more to ensure you had the best medical care and you'd pay a lot more for a lawyer than the cheapest if you were falsely accused of a crime you didn't commit.

TELL THE PUBLIC THAT TOP PAY IS NEEDED TO ENSURE THEM A SAFE FLIGHT!!

 

[AdlerDriver]

Also, if any union were smart they would bring attention to the public and make the need for higher pay a SAFETY issue. Play the safety card over and over.

Think about it, you'd pay a doctor more to ensure you had the best medical care and you'd pay a lot more for a lawyer than the cheapest if you were falsely accused of a crime you didn't commit.

TELL THE PUBLIC THAT TOP PAY IS NEEDED TO ENSURE THEM A SAFE FLIGHT!!

Nice thought but unrealistic. Doctors kill a lot more people each year than pilots. Doubtful anyone sees a trip to the islands on some low-cost outfit in the same light as getting cut on by a cut-rate surgeon.

All the public knows/cares is what the ticket costs. If there were aircraft flown by low paid pilots falling out of the sky on a regular basis, maybe you could get folks to start looking at the qualifications of the pilots flying them around. Until then, it's all about the ticket price.

 

[FLYLOW22]

"You are worth what you negotiate."

"You will gain nothing unless you are willing to lose everything."

Two quotes worth considering as a group. Talk amongst yoursleves.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Anyone union leader who is truly a man would be willing to go to jail for 10 days as Mr Toussaint did. (actually 3 days due to good behavior)

So if you expct your union leaders to go to jail... then how about you?

10 days is less than HALF of what Paris Hilton is facing!! GROW A PAIR!!

Does the public want to be flown by criminals? Can Air Line Pilots endure a gangsta image?

Before you say who cares... read your quote below where you want the public to care....

Also, if any union were smart they would bring attention to the public and make the need for higher pay a SAFETY issue. Play the safety card over and over.

Safety is not for sale superchief... When you have an emergency do you call dispatch and negotiate more pay for a successful outcome?

Is the the little girl's life in the cabin worth more under different circumstances?

Professionals don't sell safety or human security or health.

Think about it, you'd pay a doctor more to ensure you had the best medical care and you'd pay a lot more for a lawyer than the cheapest if you were falsely accused of a crime you didn't commit.

Poor analogy. Serious problems in the healthcare industry suggest that you get the healthcare that your Healthcare provider provides. Better yet, why does your CEO getting better healthcare than you? Why does your CEO's children get to live under his plan but under yours there is limited coverage to keep your child healthy or alive.

TELL THE PUBLIC THAT TOP PAY IS NEEDED TO ENSURE THEM A SAFE FLIGHT!!

Unions have found they simply waste cash by trying to "educate" the public. It takes allot of money and the message effectiveness is very short term.

No, the best way is pro-active, methodical and majority particaption by union members.

Quick fix one stop shopping with express check out like you've suggested are for the ill equipt and desperate with no where else to turn....

 

[Flopgut]

Then how will it be done? Will the defunct leadership do it? Not according to the haters. Your problem is you are not offering any solutions. Or if you do your solution is to wait for the leadership to finally come to its senses. How long are you going to wait?




And you think by doing nothing your situation will improve? Do you think management will say.. "you know we didn't realize how much we like you apathetic pilots so we are going to give you more days off so you can do union work..."





So whats the solution? Be indentured servants?




Agreed. Does the membership have any responsibility?




Does the abuser have to stop beating too? My point is there is responsibility on both sides.




Sounds good. what new things do you suggest. [direct request for your input on new things. please reply]




Yelling is for the weak. It closes doors and is regressive. See many pilots just want to slam thier fist on the desk and demand action. It doesn't work this way. Especially when management and gov't have most of the cards.




Whining? I am adovating action, activism, change, innovation and solutions. Oh, I get it.. if you say I'm whining then it will distract from your whining...


Look man, ALPA has big problems but waiting for the leadership to "do the will" of the membership isn't working... is it?

Many of us are trying to make things better by addressing the external and internal problems. Guys like you won't do anything until everything is how you want it to be. What about the other guys that want it the way they want it.... 60,000 guys demanding ALPA be thier own personal career valet....




p.s. ualdriver ...tejas-jet is like minded...

Rez: I have a request for info on your union backround? How did you get so messed up? Your goofy manifesto based soley on participation is ludicris. Participation for the sake of participation is going to get us nowhere. It is exactly what Prater wants us to do, while he sees to his own agenda.

Union work is dirty, messy, unpleasant work that is best done with plenty of yelling and hyperbole. We are skilled labor, we need to start acting like it. Try this: Call your rep and do something OTHER than kiss his/her a$$. Tell them your pi$$ed off and you think they suck.

We don't handle the marketing of our airlines' product (obviously) so we can't raise prices on our own. We aren't close to amendable dates on our contracts, so we have some time on our hands. My idea of pushing for railroad style pensions for our craft is not that bad. It certainly beats the he!! out of anything you've typed on here. I defy you to come up with something half as well thought. It is the perfect thing we could be working on while we wait for broader improvement opportunities. Instead of just reacting to all these proposed changes, we could come up with our own scheme and play a little offense. But, to do this, Prater is going to have to act a little less selfish and display some intellect, which is going to be a struggle for him.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez: I have a request for info on your union backround?

Will my background be used to valid your position?

How did you get so messed up?

Not sure, but I bet you'll tell me!

Your goofy manifesto based soley on participation is ludicris.

No... particaption and activism is one piece to the puzzle. It is the piece I choose to work on...

Participation for the sake of participation is going to get us nowhere.

Why? Please explain the difference between 0% particiaption and 100%.

It is exactly what Prater wants us to do, while he sees to his own agenda.

He wants us to be involved in the direction of our careers? Sounds good! His own agenda? What is that specifically. IOW.. what is he trying to gain?

Union work is dirty, messy, unpleasant work that is best done with plenty of yelling and hyperbole.

Nothing can be further from the truth. Attitudes and thoughts like yours get doors shut and invitations recinded. When it comes to gov't, industry and companies, ALPA's legal rights are limited. You've got to convince these three groups to invite or even want us at thier table. Your MO is regressive and counter productive.

We are skilled labor, we need to start acting like it.

How does skilled labor act? can you provide historical examples so I know what you mean?

Try this: Call your rep and do something OTHER than kiss his/her a$$. Tell them your pi$$ed off and you think they suck.

If someone, anyone, called you and said that would you listen or hang up? Sounds disrespectful and I don't expect anyone who is being disrespected to remain on the line.

We don't handle the marketing of our airlines' product (obviously) so we can't raise prices on our own. We aren't close to amendable dates on our contracts, so we have some time on our hands. My idea of pushing for railroad style pensions for our craft is not that bad.

Agreed. I think you might be on to something. Tell me... how are you going to influence others to adopt your idea of railroad pensions? Will you tell them they suck?

It certainly beats the he!! out of anything you've typed on here.

What I am advocating is the mechanism that you will use to promote railroad particaption. To influence others to agree with you so that you can show them they way to a better airline career via railroad pensions is called leadership...

How 'bout that... the membership conducting leadership.

You've got an idea. A better way. You have vision and a direction. Now you just need to convince others to follow your path to railroad pensions...

That is what I am suggesting...

I defy you to come up with something half as well thought.

See, we can work different issues... you work on the ideas and I'll work on the mechanism, or systems or the team building to get pilots together to make great ideas like yours a reality. Everyone brings something to the party.

It is the perfect thing we could be working on while we wait for broader improvement opportunities.

Agreed. We agree more than not...

Instead of just reacting to all these proposed changes, we could come up with our own scheme and play a little offense. But, to do this,

to do this.... you can come from one or both directions. You can start at the local level and/or you can start at the national level.... You are eventually going to have to convince the EC, EB and maybe the BOD. It can be done..

Prater is going to have to act a little less selfish and display some intellect, which is going to be a struggle for him.

The ALPA President takes direction and lead form the EC, EB and BOD. He is not the final word in the organization. It would be easier if you convince him of your idea but if you can't it is not the end.. there are other ways....

 

[pipe]

The fines levied against that union are sucking the coffers dry...

STEP 1
The union should do whatever they want, take all the fines the courts can give them, get the contract.

STEP 2
Declare bankruptcy. Restart the union with a different name.

Sound familiar? Apparently it works.

PIPE

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

STEP 1
The union should do whatever they want, take all the fines the courts can give them, get the contract.

Dumb

STEP 2
Declare bankruptcy. Restart the union with a different name.

Dumber

Sound familiar? Apparently it works.

No it doesn't sound familiar. What unions have done this?

 

[Flopgut]

Will my background be used to valid your position?





Not sure, but I bet you'll tell me!




No... particaption and activism is one piece to the puzzle. It is the piece I choose to work on...




Why? Please explain the difference between 0% particiaption and 100%.




He wants us to be involved in the direction of our careers? Sounds good! His own agenda? What is that specifically. IOW.. what is he trying to gain?



Nothing can be further from the truth. Attitudes and thoughts like yours get doors shut and invitations recinded. When it comes to gov't, industry and companies, ALPA's legal rights are limited. You've got to convince these three groups to invite or even want us at thier table. Your MO is regressive and counter productive.




How does skilled labor act? can you provide historical examples so I know what you mean?






If someone, anyone, called you and said that would you listen or hang up? Sounds disrespectful and I don't expect anyone who is being disrespected to remain on the line.



Agreed. I think you might be on to something. Tell me... how are you going to influence others to adopt your idea of railroad pensions? Will you tell them they suck?




What I am advocating is the mechanism that you will use to promote railroad particaption. To influence others to agree with you so that you can show them they way to a better airline career via railroad pensions is called leadership...

How 'bout that... the membership conducting leadership.

You've got an idea. A better way. You have vision and a direction. Now you just need to convince others to follow your path to railroad pensions...

That is what I am suggesting...



See, we can work different issues... you work on the ideas and I'll work on the mechanism, or systems or the team building to get pilots together to make great ideas like yours a reality. Everyone brings something to the party.



Agreed. We agree more than not...




to do this.... you can come from one or both directions. You can start at the local level and/or you can start at the national level.... You are eventually going to have to convince the EC, EB and maybe the BOD. It can be done..




The ALPA President takes direction and lead form the EC, EB and BOD. He is not the final word in the organization. It would be easier if you convince him of your idea but if you can't it is not the end.. there are other ways....

Yeah, I am going to tell them they suck! Look, not everybody can appropriately dissent. EX: What could anybody who wanted ALPA to change their stance on age 60 possibly dissent about? NOTHING! They just simultaneously hit the jackpot and screwed the union's majority, WTF could they gripe about? Conversely, if you DIDN'T want the policy to change, you've got a legitimate beef! F-ing union took a dump man. When I tell them they suck, it's entirely accurate.

BTW, last time I called CALALPA was right after the age 60 debacle. They couldn't believe it either. I talked to my rep and one of the senior functionaries and they BOTH were stunned that our guy went with Prater. They were convinced the CAL guy would be voting with the majority at the EB and he DIDN'T. Something occurred at Herndon that allowed Prater to get his way.

I appreciate the feedback on the idea. I am going to keep working on it and hopefully it goes somewhere. It would be great to get that sort of benefit for ALL our members. And, frankly, our employers should get firmly behind it as well! You think of anything else that can help me work on it, let me know. If I were you, I would give up on simple participation as a remedy. It's big play time...somebody has to make a play, doesn't matter who it is.

 

[pipe]

Dumb



Dumber



No it doesn't sound familiar. What unions have done this?

Please tell me you're not too slow to recognize the condensed version of the airline business model. You see, the problem is that we are fighting with corporations that don't care about morality or contract law. It's kind of like the whole argument about honoring the Geneva Conventions when you fight a terrorist.

Civilization depends on honor. When your opponent has none, you are at a severe disadvantage. You're in the right, but you're probably going to lose the fight.

I'm just suggesting that maybe a union should try to beat them at their own game. If they can use BK law to dump the employees off the balance sheet, why couldn't a union do the same with those fines?

PIPE

 

[AA717driver]

Pipe--Don't you see? If you just become part of the process and get others involved, you generate the synergy necessary to harness the group dynamic and things will happen.

The LEC's will motivate the MEC's who will interact with the Executive BOD and, with the leadership of the President, it will happen.

Right now, the problem isn't on the National level. Blaming the President of ALPA and the National Officers is just a cop out. We need action on the local level to begin to generate the necessary synergy. THEN and only then, will things start to happen.

Oh, yeah, don't forget to contribute to the PAC... TC