Strike in 09 at United is looking real

[Porch]

Any returning pilots should keep their foot in the door at whatever they were doing, come to class and get a feel for what is going on before they leave what they are doing now.

The airlines that have taken back UAL pilots in the past learned their lessons. Their elitist, snobbish attitudes don't fit in at the LCC's. Once the door is closed, they are not getting back in. They have cost airlines on the financial edge thousands in training costs and have brought very little to the table. The LCC's realized they need pilots with great attitudes that want to help the airline and increast moral. Not bogarts.

 

[HA25]

Sorry to be a wet blanket but there is no way any airline of any size is going to be allowed to strike under any administration (Dem or Rep). With recent rulings against unions ability to strike even when their contracts have been thrown out, I doubt management is very scared of that route. I don't think it's right but I think that's the way it's going to be.

yeah, just like Clinton screwed APA... I think the days of Dems being friendly to pilot unions are over.. Labor is being hung out to dry by the Republicrats and big business is calling the shots.

either way, best of luck to UAL ALPA et al.

 

[AA717driver]

Bill Hopson was killed in 1928. There was no union till 1931, but you you knew that didn't you. Bill was never part of a union because it had yet to exist. But you knew that didn't you... just like you know your apathetic attitude is right. Just like you don't reply to the rest of my posts, because you know you can't defend apathy, the blame game, union welfare tit mentality and do-nothing ways.

This union will be useless until guys like you and others start getting involved...

Yep, Rez, guess I was thinking of someone else.

I don't reply to the rest of your posts because it's always the same thing: stay the course, trust ALPA, get involved.

If I'm willing to encourage and participate in a SOS, how does that translate to apathy?

Am I apathetic because I don't do union work now? Maybe that's because I got LAID OFF AFTER 17 YEARS WITH AN ALPA CARRIER. Maybe I wouldn't have gotten laid off if ALPA hadn't thrown my pilot group under the bus (like Pan Am, too). But you wouldn't understand that because it didn't happen to YOU--we're just a page in 'Flying The Line III'.

It's real easy to sit in the office and pontificate, Rez, no one calls you on it.

BTW, the first thing I did after AA bought us was get involved in the union on the Jumpseat Committee and sitting in when our elected reps. couldn't be at the BOD meetings. So you can take your apathy claims and shove them.

ALPA hasn't done squat for any carrier outside of the Big 4 prior to 9/11 and the only success they can claim since then is FedEx. Big deal, I could negotiate FedEx's contract--they can't hide the money.

Yeah, Rez, I've got a hard on for people like you. I don't like cheerleaders. All Rah, Rah and no answers. If a course of action isn't working, it's hard to continue supporting it.

My ideas may not be right, but at least I'm not pushing an agenda that's been proven to be a failure. TC

 

[Flopgut]

"Nobody wants it back"

Brought to you by the Know Nothings, Do Nothings and Whatevers... of the US Air Line Pilot Profession.

I don't know if I have ever seen someone more perfectly wrong than you Rez. You just don't get it.

Big picture: We aren't going to get anything back through traditional collective bargaining means. Mgts have short circuited the whole process for now. We have to try something new. I like the www.rrb.gov as a sister plan for all of us (obviously). I'm trying to get some other input on here as I try to write out a prospectus/summary and get this ball rolling.

Talk of striking, showing up in huge numbers at events, vollunteering your time off to Prater's ALPA is what Mgts want you to do. Engage all you want in the old, failed ways of doing things, they're counting on that. But ask yourself this: Why is our working reality governed by the RLA when our retirement reality is NOTHING like theirs?

Let's stop taking direction from Prater and start telling him what direction to take! I swear, 90% of the reason I want old guys to retire at 60 is because I'm sick of the old ways of doing things.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Yet you call Tejas a pragmatic realist for simply going along with whatever Management is willing to dole out to him.

No.. I said he understands reality. The SOS lovers don't. Discuss PATCO and APA sick out.

You can't do an illegal job action and have the public against your efforts. The public will not tolerate an illegal job action by pilots. With public support or indifference we will detroy ourselves..

A guy starts this thread about how UAL pilots need to stand firm and fight for their pay and benefits and, once again, you snipe and pick at everyone's posts. You post incessantly about one thing and one thing only - the lack of union participation by ALPA members.

That is my cause. There are allot of things that need to be done.. I am just championing particaption.

News flash - we all pay dues.

Right. and we all pay taxes. the question is what are you/we doing to make the place better. Saying you pay dues is like looking for a special kudos for passing your PC. Guess what.. you are expected to pass your PC. and we are expected to pay dues.

Just b/c most guys don't go above and beyond that is not the reason why our union doesn't seem to have teeth. What would you recommend UAL pilots do?

I don't recommend self destructive actions like an SOS.

Other than show up at the next LEC meeting, that is. What if they all did? What if we had 100% attendance at the last rally?

But they don't. That is reality.

Do you think that management would suddenly reinstate the pay rates of DAL and UAL pre 9/11?

Do think the chances are greater if they do don't...?

If no one showed up to support MLK's "I have a dream" speech do you think he'd be taken seriously? How about Ghandi's Salt March? Numbers speak volumes. And this is the point many don't get.

What would be your specific recommendation to UAL pilots, Rez? Other than show up at meetings, of course. What pay rates would you find acceptable for them? If we continue down this road,

If we continue down this road of non-particaption? we will continue to get hammered.

then all the "good dudes" who currently fly WILL NOT be flying for the airlines in the future and your prediction of Illegal immigrants flying will become fact.

Agreed!

Why in the world would anyone want to enter into a profession that is on the downhill slide? Answer me that.

I agree. My concern is that you guys don't even want to try the majority particpation route. Why? It works.

Instead of a majority of us being active in our careers we are aloof. then when the Master Warning goes off we suddenly want to be effective unionist with radical action. it doesn't work that way..

The reason why we are on these message boards is becuase we care. We just have different ideas about how to go about the agreed end result.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Your correct in that the Gov't has gone out of it's way to destroy the Unions and the Working Man.

Let us not forget the New York Transportation Workers in 2005. They were willing to fight for what they believed in. Their head honcho, Roger Toussaint, was willing to spend some time in jail to make it happen. The end result - the workers got what they deserved/fought for.

You could NEVER expect ALPA to ever even CONSIDER a illegal job action. You can't expect a unix to "grow a pair."

Until the pilots of ALPA, APA etc. are willing to "walk away" from this so-called "career", the changes won't be for the better.

The fines levied against that union are sucking the coffers dry...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Yep, Rez, guess I was thinking of someone else.

Yup....

I don't reply to the rest of your posts because it's always the same thing: stay the course, trust ALPA, get involved.

No... get involved. Challenge the leadership. effect positive change. Hint: ranting on FI is not challenging the leaderhip. Calling for a self destructive SOS is not challenging the leaderhip. Coming up with workable solutions is challenging the leadership. Running for office is...

If I'm willing to encourage and participate in a SOS, how does that translate to apathy?

It translates to stupidity and self destructive-ness..

Am I apathetic because I don't do union work now? Maybe that's because I got LAID OFF AFTER 17 YEARS WITH AN ALPA CARRIER. Maybe I wouldn't have gotten laid off if ALPA hadn't thrown my pilot group under the bus (like Pan Am, too). But you wouldn't understand that because it didn't happen to YOU--we're just a page in 'Flying The Line III'.

I won't bore you with my regressive career if you don't bore me.. We've all been hit hard.. let's look to the future.

It's real easy to sit in the office and pontificate, Rez, no one calls you on it.

Cause no one shows up the LEC meetings..

BTW, the first thing I did after AA bought us was get involved in the union on the Jumpseat Committee and sitting in when our elected reps. couldn't be at the BOD meetings. So you can take your apathy claims and shove them.

I am talking all of us. The majority...

ALPA hasn't done squat for any carrier outside of the Big 4 prior to 9/11 and the only success they can claim since then is FedEx. Big deal, I could negotiate FedEx's contract--they can't hide the money.

You da man...

Yeah, Rez, I've got a hard on for people like you. I don't like cheerleaders. All Rah, Rah and no answers. If a course of action isn't working, it's hard to continue supporting it.

I may be seen as a cheerleader however, my issue is guys like you offer no solutions. You are in a lifeboat and you are cursing the boat itself. Claiming the boat sucks and we should reject it and get out of the boat. You hate the boat.

The problem is if you destroy the lifeboat then you are in the water and your survivability is practically nil. I don't get it. Why do you want that?

My ideas may not be right, but at least I'm not pushing an agenda that's been proven to be a failure. TC

Why not promote a majority particaption? We all want the same thing: effective protection of our careers.

Please effectivly debate how promoting a majority of membership particaption will or will not work.

Also debate how an SOS will or will not. If an SOS is such a great idea, then why isn't it so? why haven't we seen a grassroots effort for an SOS? Why aren't EB and EC members pushing it? If it is such a good idea then someone in the leadership organization would be talking about it....

Regardless if you want an SOS you are going to have to particpate. Wow isn't that what I am advocating? participation?

You can't expect the leadership to push forward an SOS without feeling out the membership and seeing what kind of backing there is... again...if you want an SOS you gotta get particaption...


We both want the same thing... we just have different routes....

[requesting line by line quote and response]

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I don't know if I have ever seen someone more perfectly wrong than you Rez. You just don't get it.

And your way is effectively getting us where?

Big picture: We aren't going to get anything back through traditional collective bargaining means. Mgts have short circuited the whole process for now. We have to try something new. I like the www.rrb.gov as a sister plan for all of us (obviously). I'm trying to get some other input on here as I try to write out a prospectus/summary and get this ball rolling.

I am all for innovation and new ways. But in order to change the paradigm we have to get more people involved.

If you want to execute this sister paln you are going to have to educate more members. That means getting them involved. Also once you gain acceptance you have to convince congress. 14% of PAC particaption might owrk... but more PAC contributions will make it easier.

Talk of striking, showing up in huge numbers at events, vollunteering your time off to Prater's ALPA is what Mgts want you to do.

The racist and anti-civil rights advocates wanted allot of people to show up to MLK I have a dream speech?

the British wanted thousands to follow Ghandi on the Salt March? I don't get it?

Engage all you want in the old, failed ways of doing things, they're counting on that. But ask yourself this: Why is our working reality governed by the RLA when our retirement reality is NOTHING like theirs?

Because Air Line Pilots love to support Corp America.

Let's stop taking direction from Prater and start telling him what direction to take!

Ok... that means get acitive. More guys need to send emails, make phone calls, show up at LEC meetings, pass resolutions, run for office and vote for change. Its called particaption and acitivism!

I swear, 90% of the reason I want old guys to retire at 60 is because I'm sick of the old ways of doing things.

Agreed! I want new and innovative ways to protect this profession. We can rename ALPA and call it something else! I don't care. But in order to get rid of the old ways we need more pilots involved. Doing nothing is support for the old ways and the status quo!

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Yet you call Tejas a pragmatic realist for simply going along with whatever Management is willing to dole out to him.

You don't even know me...yet you make an assumption based on what? My comments about UAL pilots going on strike for 3-6 months ???

OK...you tell me, if there is a complete shutdown on UAL property...how long do you think the entity will last before there is a BK filing of some sort?

How long are the Pilots willing to stay out? If they don't get 100% of what they want...then what will they actually accept?

Some guys talk SOS.
Did you know that the last SOS was a complete failure? Some pilot groups didn't even want to get involved.

How would you go about getting everyone involved?

 

[ualdriver]

If AA17 and Tejas-Jet think ALPA is such a waste of time, why are you sitting here debating it? I think playing checkers is a waste of time, but I'm not on the checkers.com forum telling them how they're wasting their lives playing the game.

For pete's sake Tejas-Jet and AA17- ALPA sucks, OK? Got it. Take your pins off. Don't contribute to ALPA-PAC. Find a nice non-union carrier to join. JetBlue, Skybus, Virgin, and Skywest are all hiring. ALPA's not for everyone.