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Spirit closing DTW pilot base

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Gearthrower said:
Apathy is what they count on most to get their way that is why we must fight every little violation because it is the slippery slope. Let one thing slide by next time it will be a whole section of the contract they let slide.
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They already took away the 5 days off. Our contract doesn't seem to even guarantee 4 days off. It just says to the maximum extent possible (same language as the 5 days off). Poor wording in the contract if you ask me.

This will be a rough year as as we go tit for tat with the company.
 
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I totally disagree with your last statement on the 4 days off it specifically states and I quote,"No less than 4 days off in Domicile accept during the transition. So no they can not just take that it would be a slam dunk in arbitration if it ever went that far. The squishy language is in the 5 days off section but it is really only squishy if you are a Dirt Bag airline managment.
 
On what page in the contract where you reading? I was reading page 25-3 to 25-4. The words "In lieu of the above, to the maximum extent possible" proceed the statement about 4 days off. Is it also in a different section of our contract?

I hope I am wrong (as I am a commuter) and love the 4/5 days off.
 
In lieu of the above, to the maximum extent
possible, no less than four (4) consecutive days off in domicile,

The first part of the section states the standard is 5 days between pairings, but there will never be or "No Less than 4 days off between pairings" This is very clear and there is substantial bargaining history that would support this interpretation.​
 
Actually, 25.B.3.g.5 states....Regular lines ...."To the maximum extent possible, blocks of five (5) consecutive days off in domicile. In lieu of the above, to the maximum extent possible, no less than four (4) consecutive days off in domicile, except regular lines may contain blocks of less than four (4) consecutive days off in domicile on the first three and last three days of the month. Exceptions to multiple day-off blocks may occur with prior consultation of the Scheduling Committee Chairman."
 
It just seems like the words "to the maximum extent possible" really muddy the waters. It is easy to highlight the words that support your opinion, but the legal world reads the entire sentence.

Why do we let them consistently give us four days off when it clearly says "To the maximum extent possible, blocks of 5 consecutive days off in domicile"?
 
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I give dude after two contracts that have had the same language and numerous bid packages that have had nothing less than 4 days off between pairings and never once has the company successfully created a line that had less than 4 days off between pairings what more proof do you need. Historically, we have more then enough documentation to win just about any court case if they try and use your argument. There is nothing in the contract that says I have to come to work either. The first part of the sentence you continually reference is a conditional statement that references the previous that there will be no-less than 5 days off between pairings if they do not do that then there will be no less than 4 days off between pairings. End of story, Check Please, there is nothing to see here!
 
What if I have vacation or sick, do I still have to come to work. Please, Beetle if you have been here for longer than two years you would not argue this section, why, because the company has never successfully violated it, because they do not want to force an arbitration that could posibly lead to them having to give us 5 days between pairings. And yes I know this to be true because I have worked in the union when the company has tried to violate this section and they always back down because they know that it is a very risky battle to fight and could ultimately back fire on them. When you write contract language it often is to your benefit to write squishy language, because it could be used to further your cause in later arbitration cases.

Example:

A pilot will report for a reserve assignment within 3 hours of notification under normal driving conditions.

A pilot will report for a reserve assignment within 3 hours of notification.

What language is better; The first is and why because, if you get stuck in traffice because you live 2 hrs from you domicile and can not make it to work for 3 1/2 hrs then this is the squishy language that you will use in your NOI to walk away without a mark on your record.

The same applies to what we are discussing; do you feel confident in your read on the language to violate the contract. Because I feel confident that I could win almost any case based on past practice on the companies part an past grivence settlements where they have agreed that this is an absolute.
 
Good point. If they try to get less than 4 they might get stuck with 5.

I'm guessing that is why we didn't fight them on the 5 issue (we could get stuck with less than 4).
 
This is all a worthwhile argument, but we'll just have to sit tight and see what the NC presents the pilot group with for the next contract. Pref bid would likely negate this entire discussion.......
Might be a good idea to let your reps know that you are demanding membership ratification.
 
castle bravo said:
This is all a worthwhile argument, but we'll just have to sit tight and see what the NC presents the pilot group with for the next contract. Pref bid would likely negate this entire discussion.......
Might be a good idea to let your reps know that you are demanding membership ratification.
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Although possible - I am sure the MEC would not ratify a new contract without a membership vote.

If you don't like an eventual TA produced by the NC look no further than the MEC - the NC is under the DIRECT control of the MEC.

Just some thoughts.........
 
Is there anything preventing pref bidding and a guaranteed 5 days off between trips? Pref bidding would actually make it easier and more efficient. With pref bidding they could even guarantee 5 days off during transitions (which we currently don't have).

Pref bidding is a tool that could make great schedules for the pilots and company. But, historically this tool has been used to the disadvatage of the pilots (Although I heard TWAs was good). Pref bidding could make our lives better if (and only if) it is implemented properly.
 
Pref-bidding would only work if we could create the pairings and had complete control of the parameters loaded into the pref-bidding software. With the current pairings created by scheduling all pref-bidding would do is create the same crummy schedules they currently have because the pairings are not optimized. Marketing would have to be held responsible for not changing the schedule at the last minute thus not giving planning enough time to write the schedules. Now, Marketing gives the flying for the following month about 2 to 3 days before the they are due to be published an sent out to the domiciles. This is hardly enough time to tweak the pairings they only run them thru the optimizer maybe twice before they build the lines. This should be done at least 4 time to get the best pairing efficency.

Pref-bidding will not work because they almost certainly would not let us have complete control of the program and marketing would not give the information to planning with enough time to optimize the pairings. If you do not have good solid pairings then pref-bidding would be a big loser for us.

The last system they proposed in after the last contract was Navatechs, and the most recent was Karmen. The same program that NW uses. TWA had a good system but it was run by the union and they had complete control over it, also they had good solid pairings that made the system worth wild for the crews. Also, Spirit can not be trusted to run any computer program by itself. Just how easy is it to print you schedule if DTW or FLL in the crewroom. It has been like that for as long as I can remember, just imagin now them running the program that run your whole life. The fundamentals to run a program this complex are not in place on the companies side all the promises they make a useless.

And I can not login to CrewTrac.
 
Gearthrower said:
"Pref-bidding would only work if we could create the pairings and had complete control of the parameters loaded into the pref-bidding software. "

I can hear the company laughing at this a mile away.



"This should be done at least 4 time to get the best pairing efficency. "

Never has this been a priority in Miramar.



"Pref-bidding will not work because they almost certainly would not let us have complete control of the program and marketing would not give the information to planning with enough time to optimize the pairings."

Words of wisdom and experience. NC are you listening?



"The last system they proposed in after the last contract was Navatechs, and the most recent was Karmen. The same program that NW uses."

What a strange coincidence. Want to bet bet that Miramar envisions a system exactly like what NWA uses? You will lose transition conflicts. You will lose training conflicts. You will lose vacation conflicts.



"Also, Spirit can not be trusted to run any computer program by itself"

The fox guarding the hen house.
Click to expand...
 
Pref-bidding (if we get all the control of pairings we want) would be an improvement to our QOL BUT not life shattering event. While Pref-Bid is a HUGE money saver an productivity improver for the company in ANY form.

That distinctly gives the NC an upperhand in this. The company either goes for what we need out of the program or it dies on the table wih no LOA or section in the contract.

Just look at the recent past - the company will trip over a twenty to pick up a nickel................the NC knows this. Have faith in your volunteers that work for us on their days off.
 
Gearthrower said:
it looks as if they did some sort of proving run down to Key West, the flight number shows up on the flowsheet. This will prove to be a total problem child 4801ft. I can not wait for my turn in the barrell to try and skid off the runway. If I wanted short field landing practice I would buy a C185. It looks like they warmed up on the Dade Collier Transition training field. It is the large airfield out in the middle of the Everglades just off the Curso Arrival into FLL. Check the lastest Jepp Revision 20 I believe it was placed behind MIA.
Click to expand...

Heyas,

Key West is a special place. Flew the Dash for PDT out of there a ton.

NAS Key West's idea of separation is somewhat of a curiosity, though. We came out of there IFR one day on an assigned heading. Up out nowhere a fully loaded F-14 goes by so close it fills up the front AND side windshield on the right side, and you could make out the words stenciled on the ordinance.

When we pointed it out to departure (run by the NAS), he just comes back "oh, don't worry about him, he's VFR":rolleyes:

Nu
 
The only people pref bidding will hurt (if implemented properly) are the guys who love to pick up junior assignment and open time.
 
Beetle007 said:
The only people pref bidding will hurt (if implemented properly) are the guys who love to pick up junior assignment and open time.
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Maybe, maybe not- especially if the co keeps paying 150% for days off open time pickup, and 200% for JA. What would crimp the free-for-all these "team players" exploit would be to create a pay bank system. Limits on monthly/quarterly/annual credit would help, too. Then again, that would help the currently stalled upgrade situation as well. What a concept.
 
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Well they are officially reducing the F/A base by 50% starting April 1, to be completed by Aug 1. I'm guessing it will displace the bottom 175 from DTW. It may be a few less that 175, but just a rough guess
 
USA Jet may be looking for FA's for its YIP base and growing passenger business.
 
I know a few who will come to FLL, a majority I would say would quit.....then again this may be a negotiations thing too, much like the pilots, we'll see
 
Beetle007 said:
And those 6 passwords (I counted 7 for me) require that you they be changed every so often and can't be the same as a previous password =)
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Correction - I have 8 passwords for Spirit now. I forgot they gave me a password when I had to sign that annual HR employee handbook acknowledgment. I now have a password for the "Spirit Airlines Human Resources and E-Training' website login"

How many of you guys actually created a login and signed that thing?
 
How many FA's are in DTW? What will the most Junior FA be?

That really sucks by the way.
 
There are 361 F/As in DTW as of the Jan bids. After the base reduction the most junior will be early 2002 seniority date
 

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