Southwest Window

[FurloughedAgain]

If you take the PFT component out of the discussion you're also left with an interesting discussion. There are those on this thread and others that suggest that you should avoid going to company "A" in favor of company "B" or "C" where the upgrade is faster and growth potential is better. Now, ignoring for a moment how poorly that gamble has paid off for myself and others, it brings up an interesting question.

Lets say you're in your late 30s or early 40s. Company "A" calls, but you have yet to receive a call from company "B" or "C"? What do you do? Say, no thanks and gamble that B or C is going to call? And if they call that you will be successful at the interview?

Or not even apply to company A? If not, for how long? You're not getting any younger. If the prom queen won't dance with you, then how about the pretty girl in the corner? What happens when 11pm rolls around and the only girl left without a dance partner is one that you would rather not dance with?

These are all hypothetical questions just to get us all thinking. Its EASY to have a preference for which airline we might ultimately have the opportunity to fly. But at the end of the day, its rare to have such a choice -- and even more rare for the call to come from 2 or more airlines within such a short period of time that you are able to interview at both and select one over the other.

I'd argue that most of us dance with the first girl who offers and then, if there is time, changes dance partners later.

I'd also argue that you don't have a decision to make until a job offer has been made. So if you THINK that you MIGHT want to dance with that girl, you may as well apply. You can always say no later. Just make sure that you could be happy with her for the rest of your career if the prom queen never calls.

There's your post filled with mixed metaphors for the day.

 

[labatt]

Go ugly early. Applies to most life lessons and scenarios.

 

[General Lee]

Furloughed again,

Nice post. Sure, apply to all, go with the first one that hires you. But, only one requires you to pay for a type rating IF you don't have one.

My point on these threads is to show there is a difference between airlines. Some have huge retirements, some have a lot less. Some have infighting that may create a bad environment for years. Some have different types of flying available, and some stay on one type of plane for the rest of your career (until a merger that may or may not happen). There are some airlines that have bases that are more preferable, or bases that may want to be avoided. All of that is important when looking for "the last airline you will hopefully ever work for."

If you are in your early 40s, joining an airline with fewer upcoming retirements may not be a good idea. Joining an airline with 5000 or more retirements scheduled (the big 3 are examples) may give that older pilot the chance to get a left seat, or a younger guy/gal may have an unbelievable career with great variety in planes and trip types.

All of those things must be looked at, and not every airline can give someone that many choices. Thanks to Consolidation and bag/change fees, the big 3 have turned into profit machines, and that means more stability too. That's yet another point prospective pilots need to look at too.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[FurloughedAgain]

No argument there Gen Lee. My post was more to justify my own poor decisions over a twenty year career thus far. Gives me an excuse to say, "i just went to whichever airline offered me a job at the time. And when a better one came along, I took that one too".

I stared at my phone and willed it to ring as hard as I could, but Delta never called. nor did United or American. Nomatter how much networking I did or how long I kept my application updated, they didn't call. If they would have, who knows...

So when somebody did call and I was on the wrong side of 40 with a type rating in pocket... Well, what would you have done?

Not to add yet another metaphor, but it's kind of like baseball. Not every player gets to the big leagues. Some are going to have to be satisfied playing for the farm leagues. (Not that SW is the farm leagues by any means... It's not a perfect analogy)

 

[SWA Bubba]

Ha Ha this is like herding cats. Even a simpleton like yourself should be able to comprehend it. You got hired by Southwest, conditionally. The condition was that you obtain a type on a B737, as you were not qualified. You paid for your training on the 737 to obtain the said job. I'm not saying I disagree, hell I would have done it too. You recouped all your monies right away, I get it. For you not to see the irony of you calling someone else out on the PFT issue is disingenuous at best, and it makes you look rather vapid.

Using the same rational that SWA-bashers provide in their insults, everybody in this industry has also "paid for training." All you guys here. Every...Single...Pilot.

The chief complaint (or rationalization, that is) in calling Southwest "PFT," is said to be that we "shouldn't have to have our own type rating, because the company should provide it," or "it's not required by the FAA for the job." Okay, fine, let's look at that...

When you apply at any major airline that you want to work for, you look at their minimums page, and ensure you have them met. You do what you need to do. Southwest just required higher standards for entry. And until just recently, every airline required more ratings than the FAA did. You only needed a commercial license to be a new-hire FO flying for a major-- no ATP, and no type rating required. However, you had to get whatever your prospective employer said was his minimums, in ratings, hours, and education. And damn near every one of them required you to buy your own ATP, on your own dime, when it wasn't required by the FAA for the job you got hired for. So you guys all did the exact same thing.

Personally, I came out of the military, so I bought an ATP rating and a type rating in order to satisfy Southwest's requirements. If I wanted to work for USAir or Northwest, or whatever, I would have only had to have bought the ATP rating. So, tell me guys, seriously--what's the difference? The answer is, not a damn thing. Neither the ATP nor the type rating was required by the FAA of a newhire, which is SWA-hater's chief argument. Why didn't SWA just give its pilots a type rating when they upgraded and actually needed it to be legal? Well, the same reason the other airlines didn't just give you an ATP along with your type rating when you upgraded and actually needed it. I'm guessing it was individual airlines' ideas for minimum competency and motivation.

So when all you guys say that Southwest is "PFT," you're really saying that you're PFT as well,... just not quite as much. That's like a homophobe deriding someone for taking it in the a$$, and then when it's pointed out that he does the same thing, his response is, "well, -I- don't let him put it in as far." Yeah, that's a great argument.

Trust me, there's a world of difference between actually paying your employer for the right to fly his airplane for him, and your chosen airline requiring one more (not-legally-required) rating than the other airlines requirements for (not-legally-required) pilot ratings.

But I'm sure pointing out you other PFT-er's raging hypocrisy won't stop anyone here on FI. But hell, seriously, if that's the worst insult you can come up with for me as a Southwest pilot, then I must be doing alright.

Bubba

 

[Nindiri]

So when all you guys say that Southwest is "PFT," you're really saying that you're PFT as well,... just not quite as much. That's like a homophobe deriding someone for taking it in the a$$, and then when it's pointed out that he does the same thing, his response is, "well, -I- don't let him put it in as far." Yeah, that's a great argument.

You know the thread has taken a surreal turn when homophobia and anal sex show up.

 

[outerfix]

Wow, this is almost as much fun as the USAPA forums. I wonder if it's possible for anyone to actually post any useful information about when the hiring window may open?

Thanks.

 

[ron burgundy]

Using the same rational that SWA-bashers provide in their insults, everybody in this industry has also "paid for training." All you guys here. Every...Single...Pilot.

The chief complaint (or rationalization, that is) in calling Southwest "PFT," is said to be that we "shouldn't have to have our own type rating, because the company should provide it," or "it's not required by the FAA for the job." Okay, fine, let's look at that...

When you apply at any major airline that you want to work for, you look at their minimums page, and ensure you have them met. You do what you need to do. Southwest just required higher standards for entry. And until just recently, every airline required more ratings than the FAA did. You only needed a commercial license to be a new-hire FO flying for a major-- no ATP, and no type rating required. However, you had to get whatever your prospective employer said was his minimums, in ratings, hours, and education. And damn near every one of them required you to buy your own ATP, on your own dime, when it wasn't required by the FAA for the job you got hired for. So you guys all did the exact same thing.

Personally, I came out of the military, so I bought an ATP rating and a type rating in order to satisfy Southwest's requirements. If I wanted to work for USAir or Northwest, or whatever, I would have only had to have bought the ATP rating. So, tell me guys, seriously--what's the difference? The answer is, not a damn thing. Well, the same reason the other airlines didn't just give you an ATP along with your type rating when you upgraded and actually needed it. I'm guessing it was individual airlines' ideas for minimum competency and motivation.

So when all you guys say that Southwest is "PFT," you're really saying that you're PFT as well,... just not quite as much. That's like a homophobe deriding someone for taking it in the a$$, and then when it's pointed out that he does the same thing, his response is, "well, -I- don't let him put it in as far." Yeah, that's a great argument.

Trust me, there's a world of difference between actually paying your employer for the right to fly his airplane for him, and your chosen airline requiring one more (not-legally-required) rating than the other airlines requirements for (not-legally-required) pilot ratings.

But I'm sure pointing out you other PFT-er's raging hypocrisy won't stop anyone here on FI. But hell, seriously, if that's the worst insult you can come up with for me as a Southwest pilot, then I must be doing alright.

Bubba

yyyyy

 

[FlyinGuy]

So when all you guys say that Southwest is "PFT," you're really saying that you're PFT as well,... just not quite as much. That's like a homophobe deriding someone for taking it in the a$$, and then when it's pointed out that he does the same thing, his response is, "well, -I- don't let him put it in as far." Yeah, that's a great argument.

How 'bout a football metaphor next time....k


Oh, one more thing on this subject.....who flippin cares!!!

 

[Crash Pad]

Well i've been at SWA 6 years and I think Wave and Red are smoking crack. It's still a good company and a good job... but it ain't what it used to be. It will take a miracle for a NH to upgrade in under 20 years now. Delta, United, American are all better options if the left seat is the goal. I can say that the right seat at SWA is still better than the left seat at many other places. Time will tell, but the Koolaid at SWA is starting to taste a little sour.

How did everyone just let this one go by? I haven't posted in a while but had to get off the bench when I read this baby. I thought it was an awesome hipster ironic post, funnier than a PBR in an upscale restaurant, then upon further review it occurred to me that it was honest. Surely one of the four people who post hourly on these threads will blow this one up, I'm looking at you Wave, Red, and Bubba. Epic fail all around so let me try some angles:

Aint what it used to be in the bygone era known as 2008. Those were the days when the flight attendants were young, hot, and wearing go go boots. Herb smoking like a train right next to the fueler while he threw bags on Christmas. Us against the world back then! Texas international getting the Write amendment to shut us down, giving away Whiskey in a fair war, the list goes on. That was SIX years ago. Its all gone now. Everything has gone corporate and run by bean counters. Nobody knows anyones name, we used to greet each other with hugs now its hand shakes, sensitivity training, can't even grab the ass off the A flight attendant. No more Filet in coach, smoking in the cockpit, some crews are reduced to slamming minis in their room on short overnights. I'm thinking of hanging it up, it just isn't the airline or profession I signed up for.

Disclaimer: I don't work at Southwest, I'm in the pool of indirect accidental hires. SWA seems like a good airline and I hope to work there some day. I'm still relatively new to the industry but I have heard the same line of crap for my entire career. I let the old timers slide. Why ruin the nostalgia. Stop listening to the 88' hire next to you. His story is not yours. Here is a refresher on your story:

Six years ago=2008
1. We started the year with a DOW of 12,262 Jan 09 7,608
2. Economy lost 841,000 private sector jobs
3. Housing eradicated, banking in flames, lending seized, FED shoveling money into the furnace, stimulus package.
4. Airline Hiring ZERO!!! because Dec. 13, 2007 age 65 became law.

Meanwhile you get a job at a major, pick up a distressed home, pump money into the 401K, and grab some SWA stock at 8 bucks a share. Put down the PBR and grab an ice cold cold cool aid.

 

[redflyer65]

How did everyone just let this one go by? I haven't posted in a while but had to get off the bench when I read this baby. I thought it was an awesome hipster ironic post, funnier than a PBR in an upscale restaurant, then upon further review it occurred to me that it was honest. Surely one of the four people who post hourly on these threads will blow this one up, I'm looking at you Wave, Red, and Bubba. Epic fail all around so let me try some angles:

Aint what it used to be in the bygone era known as 2008. Those were the days when the flight attendants were young, hot, and wearing go go boots. Herb smoking like a train right next to the fueler while he threw bags on Christmas. Us against the world back then! Texas international getting the Write amendment to shut us down, giving away Whiskey in a fair war, the list goes on. That was SIX years ago. Its all gone now. Everything has gone corporate and run by bean counters. Nobody knows anyones name, we used to greet each other with hugs now its hand shakes, sensitivity training, can't even grab the ass off the A flight attendant. No more Filet in coach, smoking in the cockpit, some crews are reduced to slamming minis in their room on short overnights. I'm thinking of hanging it up, it just isn't the airline or profession I signed up for.

Disclaimer: I don't work at Southwest, I'm in the pool of indirect accidental hires. SWA seems like a good airline and I hope to work there some day. I'm still relatively new to the industry but I have heard the same line of crap for my entire career. I let the old timers slide. Why ruin the nostalgia. Stop listening to the 88' hire next to you. His story is not yours. Here is a refresher on your story:

Six years ago=2008
1. We started the year with a DOW of 12,262 Jan 09 7,608
2. Economy lost 841,000 private sector jobs
3. Housing eradicated, banking in flames, lending seized, FED shoveling money into the furnace, stimulus package.
4. Airline Hiring ZERO!!! because Dec. 13, 2007 age 65 became law.

Meanwhile you get a job at a major, pick up a distressed home, pump money into the 401K, and grab some SWA stock at 8 bucks a share. Put down the PBR and grab an ice cold cold cool aid.

I won't blow up anything Crashpad. What you post is correct. And I'll step out right here and say if I was a 30 something new hire....Delta would be an awesome choice. This isn't the same old Southwest and believe me, I've sat next to those guys that have been here forever and are clueless.

The really ironic thing about your post (the highlighted part)....is EXACTLY what I did. One caveat, I bought some SW stock at $6/share, but you were damn close. I've continued to buy all the way up. Up over 200% now. And in no way am I a cool aid drinker. My goal is to take care of Number One and vote what's good for our pilot group.

As far as working a lot, that's just always been who I am. I look at guys doing manual labor M-F with just two days off. Hell I did those kind of jobs back in the day. I just carried that work ethic with me. Now granted, I don't have small kids at home, or other commitments to hold me back from working hard. I get that. I love the option of both. Work hard, or work easy. Your choice.

A couple of things I laugh at internally..

1. Guys here that put a relative high block value on picking up open time. I've actually heard guys say 'I won't get out of bed if it doesn't at least pay 5tfp.' Hey, that's there choice. But you do know that plenty of the regular public go to work (the whole day) for $125-200? We get disconnected with how much we make and the big picture. Just my opinion.

2. Guys that don't jump on a retirement plan. We have a guy on the SWAPA forum saying he can't max out his 401k (17.5) while selecting a 10% contribution. I get his point. His point is the we need a raise and most likely a B-fund. And I agree. But why wouldn't you have a much higher contribution? Too many ex-wives, too many kids, too big a house? I'm usually done with my 401k contributions by May or June. Then the big checks start rolling. Just another personal choice I guess.

Work hard, carry no debit, fully fund your retirement. Oh, and don't get divorced I guess. If you rinse and repeat that you will see some huge compounding down the road. Then a some point, you can really pull back on working so hard and just coast.

 

[SWA Bubba]

You know the thread has taken a surreal turn when homophobia and anal sex show up.

How 'bout a football metaphor next time....k

That was just for the General's benefit. You know, to put it in terms he could understand, since that seems to be the way he thinks about everything. :0

Bubba

 

[SpauldingSmails]

Here's all I'll add to the PFT debate. I'll quote Potter Stewart, a former Associate Justice of the Supreme Court - he's famous for saying, "hard-core pornography" is tough to define, but "I know it when I see it." I think PFT is similar - it's tough to nail down an exact categorization of PFT vs. typical lowbrow miserly management antics, but it's usually evident when you see it.

For the record, I do not see SWA requiring a B737 type as a PFT scheme. It's an additional qualification, just like a college degree (that wasn't free either), but I will say that it seems gauche and sheisty for an airline to require such a costly and specific thing that is customarily provided to the pilot by an airline just to reduce their burden.

 

[General Lee]

Here's all I'll add to the PFT debate. I'll quote Potter Stewart, a former Associate Justice of the Supreme Court - he's famous for saying, "hard-core pornography" is tough to define, but "I know it when I see it." I think PFT is similar - it's tough to nail down an exact categorization of PFT vs. typical lowbrow miserly management antics, but it's usually evident when you see it.

For the record, I do not see SWA requiring a B737 type as a PFT scheme. It's an additional qualification, just like a college degree (that wasn't free either), but I will say that it seems gauche and sheisty for an airline to require such a costly and specific thing that is customarily provided to the pilot by an airline just to reduce their burden.

But the type at SWA is a "requirement", not an additional qualification. Without it, no class date. DL does require a college degree, but how many guys at SWA don't have a college degree? Does a college degree "save" DL any money? There's the catch.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[SpauldingSmails]

Well, it's both.

Likewise, you won't get hired at DAL without the ol' college degree. You can always take that 737 type rating elsewhere, just like a degree, even if you're not hired at SWA. I'm not saying that I agree with their requirement for the qualification, just that I don't see it as PFT.

For those who said, they were "hired" without the rating - that's a bit disingenuous. They were given a "contingent job offer", unless they were given their DOH before attaining the type rating.