Southwest Window

[DCAA320]

Well everyone knows wave has a small dick and the genital has a tight vagina because no one will go near it so they are a good match.

 

[waveflyer]

Nice try DC
Since you're confused, this will explain things:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1D4nZ-a3WM

 

[FurloughedAgain]

He's right. The thread has drifted far enough away so as to make it useless to anyone seeking info on the topic. Why don't you guys take your discussion private or start a new thread and allow this one to come back to topic?

 

[freightdogfred]

Hell, many guys spend literally thousands of dollars on professional interview preparation prior to interviewing. Other guys don't. It's all in how badly you want a particular job, and what it's worth to you for a shot to get it.
Bubba

Really? Who the hell does that? Did you do that?

Oh wait...You bought the type. I guess you did do it.
I bought a six-pack and went out and watched Top-gun.

 

[redflyer65]

And got hired at the Tran?

 

[madjack]

Ouch!

 

[slaquer5]

Really? Who the hell does that? Did you do that?

Oh wait...You bought the type. I guess you did do it.
I bought a six-pack and went out and watched Top-gun.

I am sure you are flame baiting.
I have heard of lots thst have done that.


That goes for other airlines besides SWA .
I have a feeling that you have been around for a while . The hire thst goes on now is not the good old boys hiring club that you and I know.

 

[PCL_128]

Bubba, once again you demonstrate how SWAPA isn't a real union. It's just a collection of selfish pricks looking out for number one. ALPA bargaining policy prohibits PFT at ALPA carriers, and requires NCs to bargain it away if it exists. It's damaging to the profession, and it's the responsibility of a real union to eliminate such threats, just like the B scale in the '80s. But you don't care, because you're not a trade unionist. As long as everything is okay for you, you don't care about anything else. It's the mantra of the SWAhole: "what's in it for ME?!"

 

[freightdogfred]

And got hired at the Tran?

Yup. Hired at the Tran. Was a good job, before it was run into the ground/dismantled. WN kept the big boys honest on airfare, and FL kept WN honest. Too honest evidently, hence the buyout, and as we all know/have been told it by the experts here it was not really worth anything, one step ahead of bankruptcy, substandard pilots, etc. Delta's been the big winner and the passengers in Atlanta have been the big losers, as airfares have risen faster in Atlanta than any other part of the country. As Slaquer said, it's far from my first rodeo, and soon i'll be a kool-aid guzzlin corndog so i got that goin fer me, which is good, and didn't even have to pay for my type ha ha. I'm actually kinda stoked at getting every weekend/holiday off and GK's given me a 180% return on my ESOP so it's all good. See youse guys in the funny papers

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

Well said fdf.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Bubba, once again you demonstrate how SWAPA isn't a real union. It's just a collection of selfish pricks looking out for number one. ALPA bargaining policy prohibits PFT at ALPA carriers, and requires NCs to bargain it away if it exists. It's damaging to the profession, and it's the responsibility of a real union to eliminate such threats, just like the B scale in the '80s. But you don't care, because you're not a trade unionist. As long as everything is okay for you, you don't care about anything else. It's the mantra of the SWAhole: "what's in it for ME?!"

Dude--your blind hatred for Southwest is just making you stupid. You know that?

You're really gonna make a stand that SWAPA is a bunch of "selfish pricks looking out for number one," based on not wasting negotiating capital to change the company's hiring minimums? Seriously, that's your argument? That's pretty damn funny, actually.

Let's talk about "selfish pricks," shall we?

Q: How many ALPA carriers have literally sold their own brethren down the river (i.e. allowed outsourced flying to the cheapest regional) in return for an extra percentage point or two in a contract raise?
A: Most, if not all of them. Bad for the entire industry. Selfish pricks, right? SWAPA has never moved backward on scope, and has expended substantial negotiating capital continually strengthening its scope, to the point where now it's the industry's gold standard. The first thing SWAPA did when Southwest bought AirTran was get your profession-damaging outsourced flying eliminated.

Q: What union actually sacrificed one of its own chapters (over a thousand members) in hopes of luring a a larger pilot group to join it, for the sake of increased dues money?
A: ALPA, in the case of TWA ALPA and American Airline's APA, during their SLI. More selfish pricks, right?

Q: How many ALPA groups have allowed their junior members to be furloughed when they might have been able to prevent it?
A: A lot; possibly most of them. Maybe not as selfish as other things, but they certainly didn't go out of their way to save their juniors. To the best of my knowledge, SWAPA is the only pilot union to ever voluntarily ask the company to reduce everyone's hours (and pay), simply to prevent any junior members from being furloughed (when we lost the leases on some planes and total flying was cut).

Q: How many DFR lawsuits has ALPA lost for actually screwing over various subsets of its own members (and usually related to money)?
A: I don't actually know for sure what the number is (ironically, you may), but the number is damn sure more than the zero that applies in SWAPA's case. You're right that some union has a bunch of "selfish pricks" in it, but it isn't who you think.

And after all that, you're gonna' whine that SWAPA is "damaging the profession," just because our company has a hiring standard that you don't like, and we don't waste money to try to persuade them to change it? That's so sad, it's laughable. Your entire argument is a joke, PCL.

Requiring a type rating isn't PFT anymore than requiring an ATP was. I doubt that anyone at ALPA, other than you, would even consider it that. Regardless, however you want to try to spin an ALPA rule for your pathetic argument's sake, it wouldn't matter anyway--federal law trumps unions' "policy." Spending union dues money for the benefit of non-members (applicants that neither work for the company nor belong to the union) opens the door for lawsuits. But then again, getting your ass handed to you in court has never stopped you before.

Bubba

 

[Nindiri]

Du
The first thing SWAPA did when Southwest bought AirTran was get your profession-damaging outsourced flying eliminated.

Bubba

You've mentioned that several times now. Which outsourced flying, exactly, are you talking about?

 

[waveflyer]

You've mentioned that several times now. Which outsourced flying, exactly, are you talking about?

http://worldairlinenews.com/2011/09/07/skywest-ends-its-relationship-with-airtran/

SkyWest ends its relationship with AirTran
By Bruce Drum on September 7, 2011

SkyWest Airlines CRJ200 (CL-600-2B19) N947SW (msn 7786) LAS (Jay Selman), originally uploaded by Airliners Gallery.

SkyWest Airlines (St. George) as planned, yesterday (September 6) stop flying for AirTran Airways from the Milwaukee station. AirTran and parent Southwest Airlines have taken over some of the regional routes but many are unprofitable for larger aircraft. Southwest does not have a pilot scope clause for the company to contract with other carriers to operate feeder flights.

Copyright Photo: Jay Selman. Please click on the photo for the full story.

SkyWest?s former MKE routes:

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Don't forget jets4jobs - abrogating seniority at one company to benefit pilots from another.

Age 65 occurring post 9/11 causing thousands of furloughed pilots to stay on the street years longer than would other wise be necessary just so the senior guys could have a few more years to get their financial house in order.

PFT ended due to supply and demand. Not because the Chautauqua pilots or the Commutair pilots or the Valujet pilots suddenly had the leverage to tell their company to stop.

 

[freightdogfred]

Dude--your blind hatred for Southwest is just making you stupid. You know that?

You're really gonna make a stand that SWAPA is a bunch of "selfish pricks looking out for number one," based on not wasting negotiating capital to change the company's hiring minimums? Seriously, that's your argument? That's pretty damn funny, actually.

Let's talk about "selfish pricks," shall we?

Q: How many ALPA carriers have literally sold their own brethren down the river (i.e. allowed outsourced flying to the cheapest regional) in return for an extra percentage point or two in a contract raise?
A: Most, if not all of them. Bad for the entire industry. Selfish pricks, right? SWAPA has never moved backward on scope, and has expended substantial negotiating capital continually strengthening its scope, to the point where now it's the industry's gold standard. The first thing SWAPA did when Southwest bought AirTran was get your profession-damaging outsourced flying eliminated.

Q: What union actually sacrificed one of its own chapters (over a thousand members) in hopes of luring a a larger pilot group to join it, for the sake of increased dues money?
A: ALPA, in the case of TWA ALPA and American Airline's APA, during their SLI. More selfish pricks, right?

Q: How many ALPA groups have allowed their junior members to be furloughed when they might have been able to prevent it?
A: A lot; possibly most of them. Maybe not as selfish as other things, but they certainly didn't go out of their way to save their juniors. To the best of my knowledge, SWAPA is the only pilot union to ever voluntarily ask the company to reduce everyone's hours (and pay), simply to prevent any junior members from being furloughed (when we lost the leases on some planes and total flying was cut).

Q: How many DFR lawsuits has ALPA lost for actually screwing over various subsets of its own members (and usually related to money)?
A: I don't actually know for sure what the number is (ironically, you may), but the number is damn sure more than the zero that applies in SWAPA's case. You're right that some union has a bunch of "selfish pricks" in it, but it isn't who you think.

And after all that, you're gonna' whine that SWAPA is "damaging the profession," just because our company has a hiring standard that you don't like, and we don't waste money to try to persuade them to change it? That's so sad, it's laughable. Your entire argument is a joke, PCL.

Requiring a type rating isn't PFT anymore than requiring an ATP was. I doubt that anyone at ALPA, other than you, would even consider it that. Regardless, however you want to try to spin an ALPA rule for your pathetic argument's sake, it wouldn't matter anyway--federal law trumps unions' "policy." Spending union dues money for the benefit of non-members (applicants that neither work for the company nor belong to the union) opens the door for lawsuits. But then again, getting your ass handed to you in court has never stopped you before.

Bubba

Man's got a point. ALPA's a business, nothing more, nothing less. They will throw one group to the wolves, in hopes of landing a larger-dues paying one. The same old re-tread lawyers, sitting at the same desks for over 20 years hauling in 300K+ a year and they get their ass handed to them every time in court. ALPA is politics, a lobby, a bunch of greasy, venal, debauched, profiteering praetorians. There's also a negative side to their business.

As far as the allegation that SWAPA is a bunch of "selfish pricks looking out for #1"...well, the man has a point.

 

[PCL_128]

Dude, brevity is a virtue. And your "facts" are anything but. Not worth going into details on this thread, because it's all unrelated, but I'll be happy to answer them if you start another thread about it.

Requiring a type rating isn't PFT anymore than requiring an ATP was. I doubt that anyone at ALPA, other than you, would even consider it that.

To be clear, I don't consider it PFT. I haven't used that term, others have. I've just said that it's wrong and damaging to the profession.

 

[Double Shot]

Hey pcl

Shouldn't your avatar say we were alpa.

And. ....

When is your last day? I think it is awesome that you won't be

coming over.

 

[PCL_128]

Hey Double Doosh,

Haven't you asked those questions twenty times already?

 

[Nindiri]

http://worldairlinenews.com/2011/09/07/skywest-ends-its-relationship-with-airtran/

SkyWest ends its relationship with AirTran
By Bruce Drum on September 7, 2011

I never thought of that as outsourcing, but I suppose you could call it that for the purpose of this thread. No matter, I never really cared for it anyway, and I was happy to see it gone.

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

Hey pcl

Shouldn't your avatar say we were alpa.

And. ....

When is your last day? I think it is awesome that you won't be

coming over.

It should say "We are STILL ALPA" thanks to SWAPA. I don't blame them, with their lack of interest in how ATN ALPA did things until just recently (after they gave away the opportunity for int. overrides, additional per diem, and crew meals), they don't want the responsibility for administering our contract until forced upon them. It'll make them look bad.

 

[dicko]

ALPA is politics, a lobby, a bunch of greasy, venal, debauched, profiteering praetorians. There's also a negative side to their business.

Pure gold. Absolute gold. ?

As far as the allegation that SWAPA is a bunch of "selfish pricks looking out for #1"...well, the man has a point.

 

[waveflyer]

I never thought of that as outsourcing, but I suppose you could call it that for the purpose of this thread. No matter, I never really cared for it anyway, and I was happy to see it gone.

Why would you not call it outsourcing?
Was it any different than anyone's agreement?

 

[Nindiri]

I usually think of outsourcing as airplanes flying under our colors. But again, no matter, I will concede the point that it was a slippery slope situation and we can call it outsourcing if you like.

Bubba might want to be careful about feeling too smug, however, since SWA was only ending it's own relationship with Volaris about the same time.

 

[waveflyer]

Doing flying that we weren't ready to do on our own yet, - yeah, not the same.
Skywest isn't a stand alone airline. It has no marketing department. It has no ability to sell tickets. If you had them flying for you, they were using every integrated part of your system to sell tickets on their planes.
There is no grey, you sold out to the outsourcing fad like everyone else.
I haven't killed you guys for it bc you did it far less and are MUCH LESS influential than the delta and united sellouts. But you absolutely did. No question.

 

[General Lee]

Doing flying that we weren't ready to do on our own yet, - yeah, not the same.
Skywest isn't a stand alone airline. It has no marketing department. It has no ability to sell tickets. If you had them flying for you, they were using every integrated part of your system to sell tickets on their planes.
There is no grey, you sold out to the outsourcing fad like everyone else.
I haven't killed you guys for it bc you did it far less and are MUCH LESS influential than the delta and united sellouts. But you absolutely did. No question.

Yeah, you guys were too busy learning how to use VNAV and the auto throttles on those "new" 737-700s back then.... Luckily, Volaris was there for 3 years while you attempted to fly the Seaview2 or River2 hands off.... Good for you guys....



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Nindiri]

Doing flying that we weren't ready to do on our own yet, - yeah, not the same.
Skywest isn't a stand alone airline. It has no marketing department. It has no ability to sell tickets. If you had them flying for you, they were using every integrated part of your system to sell tickets on their planes.
There is no grey, you sold out to the outsourcing fad like everyone else.
I haven't killed you guys for it bc you did it far less and are MUCH LESS influential than the delta and united sellouts. But you absolutely did. No question.

No, Wave, it's absolutely the same, except SWA did it on a larger scale than AT did. Customers were going on your website and buying tickets to ride on Volaris. To hear some of you guys tell it, it's always different when SWA does something. I think if SWA furloughed, some of you would be on here explaining how it was different and not really a furlough.

 

[waveflyer]

Sometimes, we talk like it's different because it is in fact, different. Volaris wasn't a full codeshare. You bought two tickets on each airline. Just used southwest.com to do both.
More info for you:
http://crankyflier.com/2010/11/01/v...almost-a-codeshare-but-not-quite-partnership/

Now here is cranky flier's review of air tran's second shot at outsourcing-
http://crankyflier.com/2009/11/05/skywest-to-start-selling-flights-under-its-own-name/

SkyWest to Start Flying for AirTran in Milwaukee
By CF on Nov 5, 2009 | 15 Comments
You cheeseheads may still be hurting from your second Favre-related beatdown this year, but you can rejoice that you now have yet another airline coming to town. SkyWest (yes, the regional airline) will begin flying for AirTran in Milwaukee.

It?s very clear that this is happening because of the AirTran deal, but it?s not your traditional regional contract. Then again, it?s not exactly the ?innovative? and ?groundbreaking? contract that these guys are proclaiming it is. This has been done before many times. The airplanes will say SkyWest on them, but you?ll have to go to AirTran to book. It?s a lot like the deal they had with Delta back in the day.


You may remember that SkyWest was flying as Midwest Connect until Republic came in and booted them out. Like most airlines, SkyWest has more 50 seat jets lying around than they need, so they figured they could just put them back into use on routes they know and love. Only now, they?ll get passengers from AirTran instead of Midwest.

The 50 seaters will fly from Milwaukee to Akron/Canton (Jan 5), Des Moines (Feb 11), Indianapolis (Jan 5), Omaha (Feb 11), Pittsburgh (Dec 4), and St Louis (Dec 4). All of those are Midwest markets except for Akron/Canton, which is a big airport for AirTran. Nice.

Some of you may remember AirTran?s last effort to use 50 seat jets. Back in 2002, they signed a deal with Air Wisconsin to fly as AirTran Jet Connect. That ended in 2004 when the airline realized 50 seat jets didn?t make much money. Some are already saying that this won?t work this time around, but this is a totally different model. This will work out just fine for AirTran, though SkyWest might not be as thrilled.

Before, it was a capacity purchase agreement which meant that AirTran bought the seats to resell under their own name and Air Wisconsin received a guaranteed profit. Now, it?s a prorate agreement. SkyWest is flying these routes at its own risk and AirTran gets to share in the revenue. So SkyWest has a big burden here while AirTran has none.

If you listen to the AirTran pilots, this is the end of the world. Their press release says ?Outsourcing: Bad for Business.? Hmm, not so sure about that. They do say that AirTran passengers expect to be flown on AirTran planes and that means XM Radio, wireless internet, and business class. Hmm, maybe, but they aren?t going to get that from Milwaukee to these cities.

Granted, Pittsburgh, Indy, and St Louis have mainline service from AirTran right now, so this tells me that those flights are really weak. It?s either a 50 seater that has a shot at making money or no service at all. I?d say it?s good for business with that perspective.

I suppose it?s AirTran?s fault that the pilots are responding this way. Back when they discontinued JetConnect, AirTran said they ?could operate the Boeing 717 more efficiently than the Canadair regional jets in short-haul markets.? They may have thought that sounded good at the time, but now the AirTran pilots want them to stand by that statement.

Unfortunately for the pilots, that?s just not true. When AirTran started JetConnect, they served three cities ? Pensacola, Greensboro, and Savannah. Only Pensacola is still served by AirTran today. I guess those 717s didn?t work out as well as they hoped on those lighter routes.

In my mind, this comes down to just a couple of things. SkyWest has a bunch of 50 seaters lying around and is desperate to find a home for them. AirTran wants to continue to put the squeeze on Midwest in Milwaukee. Combine the two and, voila, you have a plan.

Will this work? If I had to place bets, I?d guess no, but hey, I?ve been wrong before. If I?m AirTran, I love this deal since I have absolutely no risk and I get to strengthen my network out of Milwaukee. If I?m SkyWest, well, it?s the best I can get right now, and that?s scary.

[Updated 11/5 @ 809s to clarify that this won't be sold under the SkyWest code]
===========================

Now here's the difference from my perspective. Air tran was a domestic airline. You had every right and qualification to fly out of Milwaukee on any airplane your management wanted to fly.
Skywest offered air tran a deal, air tran pilots fought it as well as they could (I applaud you on that and do not diminish that you had several fights going on at the same time.)

With SWA and volaris, we did not have the right nor qualification to fly into Mexico. So we allowed the very limited codeshare where passengers even had to check in for both legs at both airlines and ended it freely.

See, we have something in common: Southwest Airlines, with swapa's encouragement ended both the Skywest agreement for you, and the volaris agreement for us.

You could say good job, instead of hate and cling to air tran nostalgia

 

[waveflyer]

Yeah, you guys were too busy learning how to use VNAV and the auto throttles on those "new" 737-700s back then.... Luckily, Volaris was there for 3 years while you attempted to fly the Seaview2 or River2 hands off.... Good for you guys....



Bye Bye---General Lee

I rarely fly those hands off general.

Hand flown, raw data

You should try it sometime. I've yet to land on Echo

 

[Nindiri]

See, that's what I'm talking about, Wave. Somebody points out that SWA was "outsourcing" the same as other carriers, and you write a long post explaining how Southwest customers buying tickets on our own Southwest website and flying on Volaris is not really the same as when other carriers do it. This is why so many people at other airlines have such a poor opinion of us.

Yeah, it's the same thing.

 

[SpauldingSmails]

I rarely fly those hands off general.

Hand flown, raw data

You should try it sometime. I've yet to land on Echo

I've heard you can squeeze into a 3,500' strip too.