Southwest Window

[Nindiri]

So when all you guys say that Southwest is "PFT," you're really saying that you're PFT as well,... just not quite as much. That's like a homophobe deriding someone for taking it in the a$$, and then when it's pointed out that he does the same thing, his response is, "well, -I- don't let him put it in as far." Yeah, that's a great argument.

You know the thread has taken a surreal turn when homophobia and anal sex show up.

 

[outerfix]

Wow, this is almost as much fun as the USAPA forums. I wonder if it's possible for anyone to actually post any useful information about when the hiring window may open?

Thanks.

 

[ron burgundy]

Using the same rational that SWA-bashers provide in their insults, everybody in this industry has also "paid for training." All you guys here. Every...Single...Pilot.

The chief complaint (or rationalization, that is) in calling Southwest "PFT," is said to be that we "shouldn't have to have our own type rating, because the company should provide it," or "it's not required by the FAA for the job." Okay, fine, let's look at that...

When you apply at any major airline that you want to work for, you look at their minimums page, and ensure you have them met. You do what you need to do. Southwest just required higher standards for entry. And until just recently, every airline required more ratings than the FAA did. You only needed a commercial license to be a new-hire FO flying for a major-- no ATP, and no type rating required. However, you had to get whatever your prospective employer said was his minimums, in ratings, hours, and education. And damn near every one of them required you to buy your own ATP, on your own dime, when it wasn't required by the FAA for the job you got hired for. So you guys all did the exact same thing.

Personally, I came out of the military, so I bought an ATP rating and a type rating in order to satisfy Southwest's requirements. If I wanted to work for USAir or Northwest, or whatever, I would have only had to have bought the ATP rating. So, tell me guys, seriously--what's the difference? The answer is, not a damn thing. Well, the same reason the other airlines didn't just give you an ATP along with your type rating when you upgraded and actually needed it. I'm guessing it was individual airlines' ideas for minimum competency and motivation.

So when all you guys say that Southwest is "PFT," you're really saying that you're PFT as well,... just not quite as much. That's like a homophobe deriding someone for taking it in the a$$, and then when it's pointed out that he does the same thing, his response is, "well, -I- don't let him put it in as far." Yeah, that's a great argument.

Trust me, there's a world of difference between actually paying your employer for the right to fly his airplane for him, and your chosen airline requiring one more (not-legally-required) rating than the other airlines requirements for (not-legally-required) pilot ratings.

But I'm sure pointing out you other PFT-er's raging hypocrisy won't stop anyone here on FI. But hell, seriously, if that's the worst insult you can come up with for me as a Southwest pilot, then I must be doing alright.

Bubba

yyyyy

 

[FlyinGuy]

So when all you guys say that Southwest is "PFT," you're really saying that you're PFT as well,... just not quite as much. That's like a homophobe deriding someone for taking it in the a$$, and then when it's pointed out that he does the same thing, his response is, "well, -I- don't let him put it in as far." Yeah, that's a great argument.

How 'bout a football metaphor next time....k


Oh, one more thing on this subject.....who flippin cares!!!

 

[Crash Pad]

Well i've been at SWA 6 years and I think Wave and Red are smoking crack. It's still a good company and a good job... but it ain't what it used to be. It will take a miracle for a NH to upgrade in under 20 years now. Delta, United, American are all better options if the left seat is the goal. I can say that the right seat at SWA is still better than the left seat at many other places. Time will tell, but the Koolaid at SWA is starting to taste a little sour.

How did everyone just let this one go by? I haven't posted in a while but had to get off the bench when I read this baby. I thought it was an awesome hipster ironic post, funnier than a PBR in an upscale restaurant, then upon further review it occurred to me that it was honest. Surely one of the four people who post hourly on these threads will blow this one up, I'm looking at you Wave, Red, and Bubba. Epic fail all around so let me try some angles:

Aint what it used to be in the bygone era known as 2008. Those were the days when the flight attendants were young, hot, and wearing go go boots. Herb smoking like a train right next to the fueler while he threw bags on Christmas. Us against the world back then! Texas international getting the Write amendment to shut us down, giving away Whiskey in a fair war, the list goes on. That was SIX years ago. Its all gone now. Everything has gone corporate and run by bean counters. Nobody knows anyones name, we used to greet each other with hugs now its hand shakes, sensitivity training, can't even grab the ass off the A flight attendant. No more Filet in coach, smoking in the cockpit, some crews are reduced to slamming minis in their room on short overnights. I'm thinking of hanging it up, it just isn't the airline or profession I signed up for.

Disclaimer: I don't work at Southwest, I'm in the pool of indirect accidental hires. SWA seems like a good airline and I hope to work there some day. I'm still relatively new to the industry but I have heard the same line of crap for my entire career. I let the old timers slide. Why ruin the nostalgia. Stop listening to the 88' hire next to you. His story is not yours. Here is a refresher on your story:

Six years ago=2008
1. We started the year with a DOW of 12,262 Jan 09 7,608
2. Economy lost 841,000 private sector jobs
3. Housing eradicated, banking in flames, lending seized, FED shoveling money into the furnace, stimulus package.
4. Airline Hiring ZERO!!! because Dec. 13, 2007 age 65 became law.

Meanwhile you get a job at a major, pick up a distressed home, pump money into the 401K, and grab some SWA stock at 8 bucks a share. Put down the PBR and grab an ice cold cold cool aid.

 

[redflyer65]

How did everyone just let this one go by? I haven't posted in a while but had to get off the bench when I read this baby. I thought it was an awesome hipster ironic post, funnier than a PBR in an upscale restaurant, then upon further review it occurred to me that it was honest. Surely one of the four people who post hourly on these threads will blow this one up, I'm looking at you Wave, Red, and Bubba. Epic fail all around so let me try some angles:

Aint what it used to be in the bygone era known as 2008. Those were the days when the flight attendants were young, hot, and wearing go go boots. Herb smoking like a train right next to the fueler while he threw bags on Christmas. Us against the world back then! Texas international getting the Write amendment to shut us down, giving away Whiskey in a fair war, the list goes on. That was SIX years ago. Its all gone now. Everything has gone corporate and run by bean counters. Nobody knows anyones name, we used to greet each other with hugs now its hand shakes, sensitivity training, can't even grab the ass off the A flight attendant. No more Filet in coach, smoking in the cockpit, some crews are reduced to slamming minis in their room on short overnights. I'm thinking of hanging it up, it just isn't the airline or profession I signed up for.

Disclaimer: I don't work at Southwest, I'm in the pool of indirect accidental hires. SWA seems like a good airline and I hope to work there some day. I'm still relatively new to the industry but I have heard the same line of crap for my entire career. I let the old timers slide. Why ruin the nostalgia. Stop listening to the 88' hire next to you. His story is not yours. Here is a refresher on your story:

Six years ago=2008
1. We started the year with a DOW of 12,262 Jan 09 7,608
2. Economy lost 841,000 private sector jobs
3. Housing eradicated, banking in flames, lending seized, FED shoveling money into the furnace, stimulus package.
4. Airline Hiring ZERO!!! because Dec. 13, 2007 age 65 became law.

Meanwhile you get a job at a major, pick up a distressed home, pump money into the 401K, and grab some SWA stock at 8 bucks a share. Put down the PBR and grab an ice cold cold cool aid.

I won't blow up anything Crashpad. What you post is correct. And I'll step out right here and say if I was a 30 something new hire....Delta would be an awesome choice. This isn't the same old Southwest and believe me, I've sat next to those guys that have been here forever and are clueless.

The really ironic thing about your post (the highlighted part)....is EXACTLY what I did. One caveat, I bought some SW stock at $6/share, but you were damn close. I've continued to buy all the way up. Up over 200% now. And in no way am I a cool aid drinker. My goal is to take care of Number One and vote what's good for our pilot group.

As far as working a lot, that's just always been who I am. I look at guys doing manual labor M-F with just two days off. Hell I did those kind of jobs back in the day. I just carried that work ethic with me. Now granted, I don't have small kids at home, or other commitments to hold me back from working hard. I get that. I love the option of both. Work hard, or work easy. Your choice.

A couple of things I laugh at internally..

1. Guys here that put a relative high block value on picking up open time. I've actually heard guys say 'I won't get out of bed if it doesn't at least pay 5tfp.' Hey, that's there choice. But you do know that plenty of the regular public go to work (the whole day) for $125-200? We get disconnected with how much we make and the big picture. Just my opinion.

2. Guys that don't jump on a retirement plan. We have a guy on the SWAPA forum saying he can't max out his 401k (17.5) while selecting a 10% contribution. I get his point. His point is the we need a raise and most likely a B-fund. And I agree. But why wouldn't you have a much higher contribution? Too many ex-wives, too many kids, too big a house? I'm usually done with my 401k contributions by May or June. Then the big checks start rolling. Just another personal choice I guess.

Work hard, carry no debit, fully fund your retirement. Oh, and don't get divorced I guess. If you rinse and repeat that you will see some huge compounding down the road. Then a some point, you can really pull back on working so hard and just coast.

 

[SWA Bubba]

You know the thread has taken a surreal turn when homophobia and anal sex show up.

How 'bout a football metaphor next time....k

That was just for the General's benefit. You know, to put it in terms he could understand, since that seems to be the way he thinks about everything. :0

Bubba

 

[SpauldingSmails]

Here's all I'll add to the PFT debate. I'll quote Potter Stewart, a former Associate Justice of the Supreme Court - he's famous for saying, "hard-core pornography" is tough to define, but "I know it when I see it." I think PFT is similar - it's tough to nail down an exact categorization of PFT vs. typical lowbrow miserly management antics, but it's usually evident when you see it.

For the record, I do not see SWA requiring a B737 type as a PFT scheme. It's an additional qualification, just like a college degree (that wasn't free either), but I will say that it seems gauche and sheisty for an airline to require such a costly and specific thing that is customarily provided to the pilot by an airline just to reduce their burden.

 

[General Lee]

Here's all I'll add to the PFT debate. I'll quote Potter Stewart, a former Associate Justice of the Supreme Court - he's famous for saying, "hard-core pornography" is tough to define, but "I know it when I see it." I think PFT is similar - it's tough to nail down an exact categorization of PFT vs. typical lowbrow miserly management antics, but it's usually evident when you see it.

For the record, I do not see SWA requiring a B737 type as a PFT scheme. It's an additional qualification, just like a college degree (that wasn't free either), but I will say that it seems gauche and sheisty for an airline to require such a costly and specific thing that is customarily provided to the pilot by an airline just to reduce their burden.

But the type at SWA is a "requirement", not an additional qualification. Without it, no class date. DL does require a college degree, but how many guys at SWA don't have a college degree? Does a college degree "save" DL any money? There's the catch.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[SpauldingSmails]

Well, it's both.

Likewise, you won't get hired at DAL without the ol' college degree. You can always take that 737 type rating elsewhere, just like a degree, even if you're not hired at SWA. I'm not saying that I agree with their requirement for the qualification, just that I don't see it as PFT.

For those who said, they were "hired" without the rating - that's a bit disingenuous. They were given a "contingent job offer", unless they were given their DOH before attaining the type rating.

 

[General Lee]

Well, it's both.

Likewise, you won't get hired at DAL without the ol' college degree. You can always take that 737 type rating elsewhere, just like a degree, even if you're not hired at SWA. I'm not saying that I agree with their requirement for the qualification, just that I don't see it as PFT.

For those who said, they were "hired" without the rating - that's a bit disingenuous. They were given a "contingent job offer", unless they were given their DOH before attaining the type rating.

Having a college degree doesn't save DL money.... A type for SWA does.... That is the difference, and why getting the type is PFT.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[SpauldingSmails]

Well, I had to cover my hotel for part of my time in training at DAL. Did I PFT? I saved Delta some money while I was in training, right?

Believe me, I was glad to get the complimentary type rating for the price of a hotel room.

In either case, we just see it differently. Is requiring a 737 type a sheisty move? Yeah. But I don't see it as PFT - that's all. I don't expect you to change your mind about it either.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Having a college degree doesn't save DL money.... A type for SWA does.... That is the difference, and why getting the type is PFT.



Bye Bye---General Lee

How about you having to buy your own ATP, General? It wasn't required by the FAA, but your employer made you buy it yourself anyway (not to mention your college degree) just to apply. By your reasoning, that's PFT too, right?

Yeah, yeah, I know--you didn't let him put it in quite as far. Good for you. :0

And for the record, an applicant having a type rating doesn't really save Southwest any money. Non-typed folks (Morris and AirTran) got it simultaneously with their required PC in initial training. Two more maneuvers in the same, already-paid-for simulator block, and one extra piece of paper.

Got another argument? An actual argument?

Bubba

 

[General Lee]

How about you having to buy your own ATP, General? It wasn't required by the FAA, but your employer made you buy it yourself anyway (not to mention your college degree) just to apply. By your reasoning, that's PFT too, right?

Yeah, yeah, I know--you didn't let him put it in quite as far. Good for you. :0

And for the record, an applicant having a type rating doesn't really save Southwest any money. Non-typed folks (Morris and AirTran) got it simultaneously with their required PC in initial training. Two more maneuvers in the same, already-paid-for simulator block, and one extra piece of paper.

Got another argument? An actual argument?

Bubba

It still costs $6-7000 for some applicants, and there isn't even a guarantee that if you buy it prior you will get the job. In fact, if an applicant for any other airline already has a 737 type, that is a hint he/ she may have been turned down at the Corndog, making it interesting when getting asked multiple questions at that other interview. That's an extra thank you slap from the Corndog after getting turned down... Is that the same if you bust your ATP? I bet it's easier to explain an ATP bust than a paid for 737 type with no time on it. Explain Bubba how the multitude of guys/gals turned down by the Corny in the past decade explain that to future interviewers? Yet another bad reason Bubba. What do you say to the unsuccessful applicants?

It's just bad for the industry, and you guys just can't admit it. You justify it, which is sad...



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[SWA Bubba]

It still costs $6-7000 for some applicants, and there isn't even a guarantee that if you buy it prior you will get the job. In fact, if an applicant for any other airline already has a 737 type, that is a hint he/ she may have been turned down at the Corndog, making it interesting when getting asked multiple questions at that other interview. That's an extra thank you slap from the Corndog after getting turned down... Is that the same if you bust your ATP? I bet it's easier to explain an ATP bust than a paid for 737 type with no time on it. Explain Bubba how the multitude of guys/gals turned down by the Corny in the past decade explain that to future interviewers? Yet another bad reason Bubba. What do you say to the unsuccessful applicants?



Bye Bye---General Lee

Good God, General, were you drunk when you posted this rambling, incoherent excuse for a reply? You didn't actually address anything that has to do with my post.

Yes, you're correct in that there's no guarantee that you'll get hired by Southwest if you buy a type rating. True enough. But there's also no guarantee that you'll get hired by Delta if you buy an ATP rating (not to mention a college degree), now is there? You obtain the minimum requirements for whatever airline you want to apply to, and take your chances in an interview.

And I have no idea "what to tell an unsuccessful applicant"; I'm not an interviewer. However, lots of guys have interviewed at more than one airline, not got hired at one (including Southwest), but later hired at another. Do you really think that airline hiring boards/interviewers really don't know that their applicants interview at numerous airlines in addition to their own? Trust me, they're not as dumb as you.

So, is that really what you're going to use as a PFT argument now? You're slipping, General.

Bubba

 

[JT12345]

The average difference between SWACA and SWAFO is only 26-27%. Probably one the lowest on type in the industry.

There is a much larger disparity on Type at other airlines at 40-60%, but that is not as much when it is wide body FO vs. narrow body CA.

Upgrades are not everything especially as you get older and/or more longevity.

There seems to be a huge difference in pay at Southwest with seniority and living in base that blows away aircraft size pay increases at most airlines. The money seems very good. There is also a lot less socialism limits on how much money u can make at SWA. Fek. I make more than most narrow body FOs at AAI already. The lack of socialist restrictions here at AAI helps if you like to work.

_______________________

As for being at a real major wait till the public gets upset at the profits, and the government starts getting involved again or that lack there of by letting foreign carriers compete more to the US.



All those 100s of 777s and A380/350s being delivered for Asian and Middle East Carriers. Guess where they want to go!

 

[FurloughedAgain]

I don't know why you are arguing this. He is right. The 737 type requirement is not industry standard. It is a burdensome expense on those who want to work for SW but don't have the type already. And it may cause SW to overlook terrific candidates who simply can't afford to invest the time or money in the type.

Whether or not it is PFT is irrelevant. I paid $10,000 for the privilege of flying a Jetstream for Chautauqua in 1996 and it hasn't harmed my career. (I do that pretty well on my own). Sure wish I didn't have to do it though!

I don't know why the type requirement exists but I think we can all agree that it should be retired. Here's the catch. Nobody asked us what we thought. The company has no incentive to end the requirement. There are still plenty of people lined up every time a window opens.

I think the laws of supply and demand will have to address this particular business practice.

 

[slaquer5]

It still costs $6-7000 for some applicants, and there isn't even a guarantee that if you buy it prior you will get the job. In fact, if an applicant for any other airline already has a 737 type, that is a hint he/ she may have been turned down at the Corndog, making it interesting when getting asked multiple questions at that other interview. That's an extra thank you slap from the Corndog after getting turned down... Is that the same if you bust your ATP? I bet it's easier to explain an ATP bust than a paid for 737 type with no time on it. Explain Bubba how the multitude of guys/gals turned down by the Corny in the past decade explain that to future interviewers? Yet another bad reason Bubba. What do you say to the unsuccessful applicants?

It's just bad for the industry, and you guys just can't admit it. You justify it, which is sad...



Bye Bye---General Lee

It is all making sense now .

 

[PCL_128]

I don't know why you are arguing this.

Because that's what the SWAholes around here do. Apparently your indoctrination didn't quite take. Whatever SWA does, you have to defend it to the death. Doesn't matter how wrong or stupid it is. If SWA does it, it's perfect.

I think the laws of supply and demand will have to address this particular business practice.

Nah, SWAPA should address it in bargaining. It's a disgrace that SWAPA hasn't done something to end this by now.

 

[SpauldingSmails]

And for the record, an applicant having a type rating doesn't really save Southwest any money. Non-typed folks (Morris and AirTran) got it simultaneously with their required PC in initial training. Two more maneuvers in the same, already-paid-for simulator block, and one extra piece of paper.

Bubba

Then what is the rationale for requiring, specifically, a B-737 type rating?

A B757/767 type rating will not suffice, nor a DC-9 (MD-80), or an A320 type either. One would imagine that being typed on a similar aircraft would be an equal prediction of success, no? So, if it is not a financial advantage, nor a predictor of success - then what is it? A 737 fetish?