Southwest submits proposal to acquire Frontier Airlines

[CrownandCoke]

don't know if anyone posted about Lynx yet, but remember there's over 120 pilots there too

 

[PreContact]

How many F9 pilots retire in the next 5 years?

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

Watch for DAL to make a play for Alaska shortly. Even the mighty SWA can't pull in two directions at once. Frontier is the perfect distraction, and I bet RA even put Republic up
to this just to sucker SWA in.

Nu

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

don't know if anyone posted about Lynx yet, but remember there's over 120 pilots there too

Do you really think anybody is worried about THEM??

BTW, funniest avatar comment award goes hands-down to you!

 

[vtwo]

All true , I think this would be the first time this law would be used...

Then why are Northwest, Compass, Pinacle, and Mesaba not on one list?

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Heyas,

Watch for DAL to make a play for Alaska shortly. Even the mighty SWA can't pull in two directions at once. Frontier is the perfect distraction, and I bet RA even put Republic up
to this just to sucker SWA in.

Nu

Nu,

You are giving Dick "I'm not here to merge the airline" Anderson toooooo much credit.

 

[AlbieF15]

I am reminded of the FAR SIDE cartoon with missionaries/explorers being all giddy at the warm reception of the villagers...oblivous to all the heads on stakes nearby of similiar missionaries/explorers.

The guys firing the warning shots (like HAL) have lived a SWA merger. The guys who are optimistic are reading press clippings. SWA captains will have zero interest in adding other folks on top of them. SWA FOs, especially those junior that are bouncing between bases, also have little interest in assisting anything other than a staple job. 4000 pissed off pilots can exert a lot of pressure on a company that thrives on fuel savings, tight turns, and a sense of teamwork to eek out profitablity.

I have friends at SWA and Frontier. I don't want my junior buddies at SWA screwed into being bounced out of base. I don't want my Frontier friends out of work. I am afraid one of them will occur, and my bet is that my Frontier friends need to consider looking for work. I suspect the "hiring" will be remarkably similar to standard SWA hiring, which means they will take 25-35% of the who they interview. The ATA numbers were much more abysmal.

Good luck to all involved...seriously....

 

[StopNTSing]

everyone is making this sound like a done deal. i would not be surprised if jetblue or virgin america put a bid in

I don't mean to make this into a "my dad can lick your dad," but really, how many times have you seen SWA outbid at an auction?

 

[Mea25000]

No one is going to buy AS we cost way too much

 

[Jetjockey]

A buying of assets.....not a merger.

Ask the ATA guys how that worked out. Whatever makes you guys sleep better at night.

 

[Colonel Savage]

don't know if anyone posted about Lynx yet, but remember there's over 120 pilots there too

Well since you brought it up, and since SWAPA's contract prohibits domestic codeshare, what would happen to the Lynx operation and pilots under a fully integrated merger senario?

 

[shearedshaft]

SWAPA's contract doesn't prohibit domestic codeshare at all. The tentative agreement did, but the pilots voted that down. Now we're purchasing Frontier, I suspect that makes SL32 null and void due to the hull growth.

Right now, under the current contract, SWA can codeshare as much as it wants, domestically and internationally, near and far. The only restriction is that it has to grow by some number of hulls after January of this year, I can't remember how many that is.

 

[shootr]

Nothing discussed here would have been preventable in the failed TA. It would all have been allowed under the exception provisions. F9/Lynx were the reasons for these exceptions. Sheared, you don't even know what you voted yes on!

shootr

 

[shootr]

Oh...and SL32 is specific requiring a 5% growth of our B737 fleet. No mention of airbuses of an alter-ego airline.

 

[shearedshaft]

Oh...and SL32 is specific requiring a 5% growth of our B737 fleet. No mention of airbuses of an alter-ego airline.

Re-read it. Doesn't mention aircraft type. Just number of hulls.

 

[shearedshaft]

Nothing discussed here would have been preventable in the failed TA. It would all have been allowed under the exception provisions. F9/Lynx were the reasons for these exceptions. Sheared, you don't even know what you voted yes on!

shootr

It still amazes me that you guys didn't understand the TA.

The TA had a specific exclusion for what now appears to be Frontier, but it was phrased such that the company could buy them (and Lynx) and be restricted from growing either. So we could have the exact scenerio we have today, but there could be no growth of the Q400 or Airbus fleet to take over our flying. Also, there was to be no domestic codeshare, so they couldn't take over our routes.

Now under the current contract you guys are paying $1,000 per month to keep, there is no restriction on growing either Frontier or Lynx, there is no restriction on any codeshare, domestic or international and SL32 is null if we grow by a certain number of hulls, which again, I don't feel like looking up, since Frontier is bigger than that number. It does NOT state Boeings.

So by turning down the contract, you voted to allow SWA to grow a new subsidiary if they want to, to code share under our name.

We are certainly worse off with this purchase with the current contract in place than we would have been with the TA in place, because of the much stricter language regarding domestic codeshare and limiting the growth of RJ subsidiaries.

But then again, I actually read the whole contract. You? Apparently you listened to the lances. Who got to keep their paycheck while you write a check for $1,000 each month back to the company.

 

[OurMoney1]

Lnyx is screwed...

Desirable airplanes on the used global aircraft market, its gonna be a liquidation.....of course to pay for the Spring 2010 Spirit parties.

Hate to say it but I dont think you'll be included in this dance.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Maybe RAH will buy Lynx.

 

[shootr]

Maybe you should read it, Mister shaft...

"Barring circumstances that have a debilitating effect on the Company's operations, the Company agrees to grow by an annual average net gain of five percent (5%) in the B737 aircraft fleet size from December 31, 2005 through December 31, 2010."

A direct quote from SL32. We sure are debilitated making a bid on a major airline!

 

[njcapt]

To correct earlier post, this is an acquisition. The RLA details how acquisitions are handled. This is also nothing like ATA, as they had already filed Ch. 7.

OK, you need to stop saying this. ATA was in Chapter 11 while all the SWA involvement was going on. SWA trumped the AirTran bid during the initial process, then pulled strings with Boeing to kill the potential deal with America West. SWA got 100% of their investment paid off when Matlin Patterson provided exit financing. In return, SWA got a bunch of gates in MDW, eliminated competition in a dozen markets and got the benefit of codeshare to Hawaii out of four west coast cities.

Southwest gets what they want when their turf is threatened. Always. This is an opportunity to fend off an up and coming threat in Republic and to poke a stick in the eye of United in DEN.

 

[shearedshaft]

Ok, I guess you're right, I should have looked it up.

I still have a strong suspicion that SL32 won't be an issue, they'll settle a contract far before January.

Interestingly, there has been no mention so far of codesharing with Frontier. I wonder how that is going to go.

 

[njcapt]

I understand your pessimism. I think you will not see FAPA fighting SWAPA as much as ALPA did. FAPA and F9 management had a very strong relationship, not saying your union didn't, but they are just going to be looking to keep their jobs somehow more than anything. They don't have much to bargain with if this goes through. Hopefully it works out, I am cautiously optimistic for F9.

The Union at ATA was essentially NEVER consulted about ANYTHING related to our fate. We were held at arm's length by the SWA moles installed as executives and loaded with BS and false promises. Your claim that the Frontier pilots are better off since they had a good relationship with their management before any potential SWA acquisition is naive in the extreme and without basis in fact.

 

[Indy319FA]

Had F9 failed to obtain exit financing, and subsequently liquidated, SWA or anyone else could sweep in and purchase individual assets just as they did at ATA.

If no one else had bid for F9, you can bet that SWA would have been waiting to pounce on the assets. Now that F9 has at least one offer, SWA is executing plan B. By acquiring F9, SWA is preventing RAH from coming in and expanding F9 market share with E190's. SWA wants denver, and this is the only way they can get it due to the fact that F9 is not going to completely disappear.

Still a long way before SWA or anyone else owns us.

Exactly. Bedford wants to get his investment out of F9. By making a bid he forced Southwest to show their cards. Either way this comes out he wins. Either he gets Frontier and makes them a part of whatever plan he has for Republic and Midwest, or he gets the money invested in F9 back. We'll find out how much he really wants to make F9 a part of the Republic "Family" on the 11th.

 

[Jack Mahogoff]

Exactly. Beford wants to get his investment out of F9. By making a bid he forced Southwest to show their cards. Either way this comes out he wins. Either he gets Frontier and makes them a part of whatever plan he has for Republic and Midwest, or he gets the money invested in F9 back. We'll find out how much he really wants to make F9 a part of the Republic "Family" on the 11th.

Indy,

You hit the nail squarely on the f##king head. Either way, BB wins. He'll get money or another certificate.

 

[runwayjockey]

Exactly. Beford wants to get his investment out of F9. By making a bid he forced Southwest to show their cards. Either way this comes out he wins. Either he gets Frontier and makes them a part of whatever plan he has for Republic and Midwest, or he gets the money invested in F9 back. We'll find out how much he really wants to make F9 a part of the Republic "Family" on the 11th.

Or he can use the profits from the F9 sale to cover his losses when he gets his A$$ handed to him by AAI and LUV in MKE.......

 

[texman]

So how many 737's will we take total after it is all said and done? 1 for 1!

 

[Indy319FA]

Or he can use the profits from the F9 sale to cover his losses when he gets his A$$ handed to him by AAI and LUV in MKE.......

Too soon to say if it will succeed or not. I think you can say it wont be successful unless there are major changes in the way Republic is managed. Here is where I discussed this on another thread:
http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=124692&page=2

 

[StopNTSing]

Ok, I guess you're right, I should have looked it up.

I still have a strong suspicion that SL32 won't be an issue, they'll settle a contract far before January.

Interestingly, there has been no mention so far of codesharing with Frontier. I wonder how that is going to go.

Pssst.....don't look now chief, but this one has gone straight past the flirtatious codeshare stage and on to the chapel of M&A. SL32 has NOTHING to do with this pending deal! Had we voted in that turd of a TA, SWAPA would have been simply along for the ride as the target "transaction" alluded to in TA section 1 was clearly F9, and that process was spelled out for us with a merged list scenario ala Bond-McCaskill.....and with a specific allowance to codeshare with a regional operator (Lynx) involved in any acquistion. As it stands right now, our current contract Section 1 language doesn't allow any alter-ego carriers, so they gotta "meet & discuss" big-time on this one; i.e. SWAPA now gets a seat at the table on how this whole deal gets done. It's apparent now that F9 has been in Gary's sights for some time, and since no one from the company thought the TA would actually be voted down (how's it feel to be taken completely for granted?), they now find themselves scrambling to still make it happen and keep the pilots on board. IOW, we suddenly have a HUGE amount of leverage....I hope SWAPA has learned from recent events and uses it wisely. :smash:

 

[StaySeated]

OK, you need to stop saying this. ATA was in Chapter 11 while all the SWA involvement was going on. SWA trumped the AirTran bid during the initial process, then pulled strings with Boeing to kill the potential deal with America West. SWA got 100% of their investment paid off when Matlin Patterson provided exit financing. In return, SWA got a bunch of gates in MDW, eliminated competition in a dozen markets and got the benefit of codeshare to Hawaii out of four west coast cities.

Southwest gets what they want when their turf is threatened. Always. This is an opportunity to fend off an up and coming threat in Republic and to poke a stick in the eye of United in DEN.

You are correct, SWA was involved prior to the lights being turned off at ATA. I have referred to the '08 filing as a Ch 7 when it actually was a Ch 11 that include the cessation of all operations.

I think you and I have flown together at another "no longer existent airline".

 

[FDJ2]

Is this a merger or SWA buying Frontier?

It doesn't matter for seniority purposes.