Southwest off the runway at MDW

[h25b]

Well, I agree with your premise, but the fact is at MDW they are un-willing to do that sometimes due to arivals/Departures out of O'Hare.

And of course, the feeling of not wanting to be the black sheep and Phuch the program up and take crap on the radio.

You make a good point, and one that we can all learn from.

Thanks

I don't mind being the black sheep. If it's that big of a deal for the controllers, it's time to start thinking about going somewhere else. Some people can call me a chicken, but I have a list of sorts of "big deals" I don't mess around with. When I get more than 2 of these "big deals" I start looking at an entirely different plan. Extremely low vis., slick runway, and tailwind are all on my list... I've seen this situation lots in my short career. In busy airspace and with deteriorating conditions it does take major cajones to be the guy that finally says enough. Unfortunately, if no one says "enough, I'm going elsewhere or taking another approach" the only way the dangerous situation gets revealed is when an aircraft has an incident or at the very least scares the hell out of themselves...

My heart goes out to the flight crew on this one.

 

[Remington]

Also to add one more thing, laughter does help invoke memory. In CRM recurrent, they've slipped in some photos of accidents photo that made everyone laugh; specifically the SWA Burbank at the pump. Now whenever I land on a shortened runway, and if we are looking any bit unstabilized, that photo and accidnt always seems to come in mind. Helps to make a go around decision.

I guarantee you the discussion of past accidents/incidents were not intended to envoke a laugh. Sure, we have all learned tons from past accidents. I gave my students, "The I learned about flying from that" articles. We can all learn from some other's mistakes. However, the people making fun here are hiding behind anonimity. I challenge you to go stand in the B concourse of MDW and laugh at this problem and make a joke of it. You won't.
People love to see the sucessful fall. SWA is the most sucessful airline in history and folks wait like vultures for something like this to happen.
On top of the child losing his life, other's were hurt, and two pilots might lose their career. Is anyone losing their career funny? Can you make up a joke about this? Lets hear it. Show your wife/parents/kids this thread and see if they think it's funny.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

This isn't a good time to poke fun at other airlines and its definately tragic for the family that lost their 6 year old son 2 weeks before Christmas.

I know this much...When they investigate this accident the two SWA pilots better have done everything right. They better have had the proper flaps, autobrakes, speeds, etc...

This isn't meant as an insult but SWA has the reputation for always being in a rush. The public may not realize this but the FAA certainly does. After running planes off the end of the runway in BUR and PHX, the flap spindle malfunction in HOU (which was caused ove time by being in a rush), and a few other cases SWA just can't afford to have any more haste related problems. Thank the Lord that no one has been killed...until today.

Now I'm not saying that other airlines don't make mistakes but if the investigators find out that this accident was caused by being in a rush this is going to be really bad for SWA. Hopefully it was something outside the pilots' control.

BTW...I have several SWA friends and I know that you hire good people. Every airline has people that screw up.

 

[freightdogfred]

??

If that is directed at me, I am curious how 121 distances are worked, not taking a shot at anyone. It has been an observation on my side of the business that contaminated runways are by a lot of pilots and operators, ignored as it severly limits the use of the airplane. I am interested in the airline side of things and am asking an honest question. I'm sorry for your company's situation, and more so for the family of the lost child. If there is anyone here who can help me learn about that I more than appreciate the insight.

Runway analysis at most 121 carriers are predicated on maximum braking, no reverse. Inop systems such as spoilers, anti-skid will typically require a radical weight penalty, (a much lower landing weight) There are adjustments for tailwinds as well. Data is usually supplied by listing the maximum allowable landing weight for a given situation.

 

[LarryinTN]

I respect your SOP's and can understand your statement. Can you just tell me do you guys use Auto-Brakes?

I don't know SWA's procedures but I was on their jumpseat on a 737-700 for a landing at PIT in light snow. The Captain armed the autobrakes then, when additional information was received on final, he bumped them up another notch. I thought he did an excellent job of managing the entire flight which had weather challenges throughout.

 

[Fly2Scuba]

I guarantee you the discussion of past accidents/incidents were not intended to envoke a laugh. Sure, we have all learned tons from past accidents. I gave my students, "The I learned about flying from that" articles. We can all learn from some other's mistakes. However, the people making fun here are hiding behind anonimity. I challenge you to go stand in the B concourse of MDW and laugh at this problem and make a joke of it. You won't.
People love to see the sucessful fall. SWA is the most sucessful airline in history and folks wait like vultures for something like this to happen.
On top of the child losing his life, other's were hurt, and two pilots might lose their career. Is anyone losing their career funny? Can you make up a joke about this? Lets hear it. Show your wife/parents/kids this thread and see if they think it's funny.

Again, I think you might be taking this a bit to seriously. Yea, looking back there are inapproriate comments that should have been reserved for the time being. However, part of the appeal of an anoyomous internet board is you make some comments you wouldn't openly discuss in public setting. There are some people on here who are probably high school kids interested in aviation, but also likes to get a rise by pissing off others. By overreacting, you're just encouraging some of the extreme posters.

I provided plenty of examples of past tragedies that are joked about on a daily basis and I'm sure you have joked about also. Almost all accidents are not joked about in CRM, but again that Burbank photo is funny so get over it. Laughter is an escape sometimes to uncomfortable, serious topics.

Also I'm not sure people are looking to pounce on SWA for being so successful. Most people these days would love to work them and admire their industry leading 737 rates and work rules. I would agree with others that they seem to be in a more hurry up mode than any other airline. Maybe a factor in this accident, maybe not. Thirty plus years and one fatality is still an excellent track record.

 

[mdf]

How do some of you pin dik weasels get up in the morning, and look at yourselves? Do me a favor. Next time you look in the mirror, remind yourself what a spineless little scant of a person you are to post such crap while hidding behind your handle. I am sorry you spent most of your childhood hanging from the gym locker door, but it is time to get over it.

 

[banned username 1]

When we heard the news and saw the pictures, my wife and I were just heartsick for the crew and the family of the little boy who was killed.

It is a sobering reminder that despite everything that we do right, sometimes things still go wrong. It's an unforgiving industry that we're involved in.

Our thoughts are with you all.

 

[Dumbluck]

I've read that the metar winds were 160/5, what time was that metar and what time was the accident? I was in KTOL when the snow hit and we got stuck there until it passed. When we landed winds were 090/10 then increased in intesity up to 090/20 then as the front passed the winds shifted to 250/25G30. The reason I bring it up is becuase the winds swapped in about 20 minutes and during that time there was a lull in the wind, not a large varible wind change. I'm curious if MDW experienced such a shift and the intensity of the storm there

 

[Bandit60]

lets wait till we get the full facts before we hang the flight crew.

with THAT said, I see on the 31-C approach plate a notation that "landing length available" is 5826 feet

http://myairplane.com/databases/approach/pdfs/00081ILD31C.PDF

obviously, SWA has been into KMDW before, and we have the Captain, the CP, and Dispatch all involved in flight planning decisions.

With snow and ice/moisture/etc and less than optimal viz (albeit "legal"), I sure would have liked another 1000 feet of pavement to play with given the conditions


Good luck to all and prayers to the injured/deceased

You mentioned that the landing lenght available was 5826, but the runway beyond glide slope is only 4925ft. If it was me and I had that weather conditions, that is the runway length I would have looked at.

 

[Fly2Scuba]

How do some of you pin dik weasels get up in the morning, and look at yourselves? Do me a favor. Next time you look in the mirror, remind yourself what a spineless little scant of a person you are to post such crap while hidding behind your handle. I am sorry you spent most of your childhood hanging from the gym locker door, but it is time to get over it.

Someone who uses digler sized member as their status is probably trying to hide the opposite, especially after using "pin dik weasels" to go after others. Look dude, you probably work for SWA and I'm sorry this accident happened, period. Sucks, could have been much worse and again most of the "innapropriate" comments were made during the time period when it seemed like the extent of the human damage was minimal. So if I pissed you off or offended you besides the first sentence of this post, sorry. SWA has the most outgoing fun easy going crews I've ever met, so please don't lose your coolness by getting all outraged now and bitter from stuff you read on flightinfo.

 

[say again]

Unfortunate events like this happen and will continue to. As pilots, we must remember how important our jobs are, and how very quickly things can change. My heart goes out to everyone involved, especially those of the poor young child. Be safe everyone!!!!

 

[Dennis Miller]

F*** the press

I make my living off the evening news
Just give me something-something I can use
People love it when you lose,
They love dirty laundry

Well, I coulda been an actor, but I wound up here
I just have to look good, I don’t have to be clear
Come and whisper in my ear
Give us dirty laundry

Kick ’em when they’re up
Kick ’em when they’re down
Kick ’em when they’re up
Kick ’em when they’re down
Kick ’em when they’re up
Kick ’em when they’re down
Kick ’em when they’re up
Kick ’em all around

We got the bubble-headed-bleach-blonde who
Comes on at five
She can tell you ’bout the plane crash with a gleam
In her eye
It’s interesting when people die-
Give us dirty laundry

Can we film the operation?
Is the head dead yet?
You know, the boys in the newsroom got a
Running bet
Get the widow on the set!
We need dirty laundry

You don’t really need to find out what’s going on
You don’t really want to know just how far it’s gone
Just leave well enough alone
Eat your dirty laundry

Kick ’em when they’re up
Kick ’em when they’re down
Kick ’em when they’re up
Kick ’em when they’re down

Kick ’em when they’re up
Kick ’em when they’re down
Kick ’em when they’re stiff
Kick ’em all around

Dirty little secrets
Dirty little lies
We got our dirty little fingers in everybody’s pie
We love to cut you down to size
We love dirty laundry

We can do the innuendo
We can dance and sing
When it’s said and done we haven’t told you a thing
We all know that crap is king
Give us dirty laundry!

 

[atafan]

I want to on record as someone who has flown thousands of hours into and out of MDW with both the B737-800 and B-727, many of which has been in bad weather. MDW is safe but you have to be right on the mark, the reported weather is often not accurate including field reports.

My prayers go out to those pilots, the victims and SWA, I know these are trying times for everyone.

Cursed is the pilot that takes cheap shots at someone's misfortunes.

 

[AKAAB]

You mentioned that the landing lenght available was 5826, but the runway beyond glide slope is only 4925ft. If it was me and I had that weather conditions, that is the runway length I would have looked at.

Are you saying you make up your own limitation and performance numbers instead of using the approved performance information? Or, as I suspect, are you saying you like to wag a couple of extra feet in your numbers to give yourself a larger margin of safety?

Not being sure about how the landing distance is calculated contributed to chain of events that lead to the FedEx MD-11 accident in EWR. As I recall, they thought the landing distance was calculated from the glideslope intercept and not the end of the runway - thus leading them to believe they had less performance than they had.

Regardless, you have to know what your own numbers are predicated on - runway length or glideslope.

Now...back to the SWA discussion....