Southwest Airlines Expands Atlanta Service With Two New Nonstop Destinations

[Andy]

Really?? Cheap fares!. SWA is no longer considered a discount airlines. In fact, most of its regular fares are more expensive than other major airlines.

Grandpa...you are correct until you do the math...by looking at straight fares we are often higher. But you add all of the fees and we are usually the lowest by far. That is a fact. And when the new stupid passenger bill of rights pass all airlines will have to show their fees up front. Good for swa not so much for others.

You both have some valid points but miss others.

Southwest can be beat by other carriers most of the time for cheapest fare. Most that buy the cheapest fare usually pack the biggest carryon bag that they can to avoid baggage fees.

The big price difference is on unrestricted fares. I did a bit of flying IAD/BWI-SAT on my own dime. If I booked in advance, I could get a good fare on the legacies if I opted to not try nonrevving on United (as a furloughee, I could nonrev). The legacies - specifically AMR and DAL - always beat AirTran and Southwest's lowest prices. And I never checked a bag.

If I went the nonrev route, I would always buy a fully refundable ticket as a backup. That ticket was always purchased on AirTran or Southwest, although usually on AirTran. I never used any of those tickets; I always called in to cancel them once I cleared a nonrev seat.

 

[puddlejumper101]

it comes down to who has control over fares. Let's make no mistake that Delta will match and probably beat most domestic fares out of ATL, but...in the end who does that affect more. A $150.00 ticket on DAL will yield far less (if it even does that), than $150.00 on SWA. So DAL will match, but won't be making any money out of it. ATL has plenty of originating traffic, and that's what determines how big SWA gets in a particular city. SLC is a good example, like someone else brought up. DAL matches every fare to what Airtran charges, but DAL could afford to make up the difference in another market since Airtran is a blip compared to DAL. SWA... not so much. One telling way is the RJ distribution. DAL will soon figure out where it can compete, and where it can't. Those cities where they can't will become RJ cities (like HOU), where DAL is only interested in bringing the international Pax to ATL. DAL is not going out of business cause SWA is in ATL, but what it does do is pricing power is gone on many domestic routes. Training, maintenance, productivity are all things DAL can't beat SWA except with RJs.

 

[Andy]

it comes down to who has control over fares. Let's make no mistake that Delta will match and probably beat most domestic fares out of ATL, but...in the end who does that affect more. A $150.00 ticket on DAL will yield far less (if it even does that), than $150.00 on SWA. So DAL will match, but won't be making any money out of it. ATL has plenty of originating traffic, and that's what determines how big SWA gets in a particular city. SLC is a good example, like someone else brought up. DAL matches every fare to what Airtran charges, but DAL could afford to make up the difference in another market since Airtran is a blip compared to DAL. SWA... not so much. One telling way is the RJ distribution. DAL will soon figure out where it can compete, and where it can't. Those cities where they can't will become RJ cities (like HOU), where DAL is only interested in bringing the international Pax to ATL. DAL is not going out of business cause SWA is in ATL, but what it does do is pricing power is gone on many domestic routes. Training, maintenance, productivity are all things DAL can't beat SWA except with RJs.

Yield management is incredibly complex. It's a dark art best left to computer nerds using Cray supercomputers.
Don't waste the gray matter trying to make sense of it.

 

[Dan Roman]

s
(as a furloughee, I could nonrev).
.

Thanks to ALPA!

 

[puddlejumper101]

Yield management is incredibly complex. It's a dark art best left to computer nerds using Cray supercomputers.
Don't waste the gray matter trying to make sense of it.

yeah you are right, in the end I don't know how much damage SWA does to DAL in ATL beyond what it already does. Simply put, the bigger the network, the more damage SWA does. If I live in FLL and need to get to LAX then that's where a pax has choices between carriers. This doesn't change with SWA in ATL, just more cities that network carriers have to compete with SWA...that is about it.

 

[Andy]

Thanks to ALPA!

So the furloughed flight attendants, CSRs and other furloughed employee groups should have thanked ALPA for keeping nonrev privileges????? I'll let them know who to thank - I suspect that they'll quickly thank ALPA/me for summer 2000.

 

[Dan Roman]

So the furloughed flight attendants, CSRs and other furloughed employee groups should have thanked ALPA for keeping nonrev privileges????? I'll let them know who to thank - I suspect that they'll quickly thank ALPA/me for summer 2000.

I said that half tongue in cheek. Your comment about summer of 2000 says a lot. I couldn't agree more that it was an embarrassment to the profession. But it was a United pilots decision, not an ALPA one. I'm sure they would have done the same if they were UALPA. Just like APA and USAPA have.

 

[Andy]

I said that half tongue in cheek. Your comment about summer of 2000 says a lot. I couldn't agree more that it was an embarrassment to the profession. But it was a United pilots decision, not an ALPA one. I'm sure they would have done the same if they were UALPA. Just like APA and USAPA have.

Gotcha on the TIC.
A lot of employee groups have very long memories. We could discuss the levels of blame for what happened but that doesn't matter to a cranky CSR or FA. The Public Relations machine worked and the pilots did not make an extraordinary effort to defuse the negative PR. PR is a huge achilles heel of all pilot unions; a small PR investment would go a long way to stem those attacks.

 

[Grandpa +65]

Days over for Southwest fuel cost advantage-CFO
Southwest Airlines, whose fuel hedges were once the envy of the U.S. airline industry, still uses them to manage volatile fuel costs, but the carrier no longer spends far less on fuel than rivals, Southwest's chief financial officer said on Wednesday. Speaking on a webcast of the Dahlman Rose & Co global transportation conference, Laura Wright said the cost of buying options to lock in lower fuel prices has risen and the instruments are best used now to blunt the impact of a sudden surge fuel prices. Southwest, the largest U.S. low-cost airline, enjoyed a major cost advantage over competitors in the middle of the last decade thanks to layers of hedges that ensured fuel costs that were well below market prices. The hedging program gave Southwest a significant advantage over unhedged rivals as fuel followed oil futures to a record high in 2008. Southwest's lucrative hedges have since expired and the industry playing field is more level.
Source: Reuters, Sept. 7

 

[ugasucks]

Wait till SWA lands on 28 and then has to taxi to ramp 3 at 9am for a 30 min. turn. They will feel the LUV then.

 

[slaquer5]

it comes down to who has control over fares. Let's make no mistake that Delta will match and probably beat most domestic fares out of ATL,

Very true, except DAL will get alot of ill will when they charge 100 bucks to go ATL- LAX but 900 dollars, or more, to fly somewhere a 1/3 of the distance with no competition.

Does not look good to your frequent fliers.

 

[maru657]

SLC, 1994, Morris Air was kicking Delta out of Salt Lake. Then Southwest entered the arena and Delta came back stronger than ever. Now, regarding the possibility that Southwest will continue to add routes in ATL and slowly shut down AirTran. When is that scabbing?

 

[shootr]

Never. The definition of scabbing is specific.

 

[Fubijaakr]

You have to admit, SWA is kicking butt in DEN. It could easily happen in ATL if DAL assumes it can't happen.

 

[jonjuan]

Does not look good to your frequent fliers.

Nor does cattle car seating, no F, no clubs, and no international destinations to use miles.

 

[puddlejumper101]

Wait till SWA lands on 28 and then has to taxi to ramp 3 at 9am for a 30 min. turn. They will feel the LUV then.

that won't be a problem...it will be like Philly where the times are padded. As long as the WX holds up ATL should be ok. Trust me, they have this already figured out. ATL is very busy but also very efficient. Very LAX like...yes 30 or 35 min turns will not be a problem in ATL either. There are days when it won't happen, but those are the same days where everyone will be impacted. I have seen Philly flights with an extra 45 minutes of padding. We leave the gate takeoff 45 mins later and are still on time.

 

[Quimby]

Wait till SWA lands on 28 and then has to taxi to ramp 3 at 9am for a 30 min. turn. They will feel the LUV then.

Not 28!

Oh, the horror!

 

[igneousy2]

Never. The definition of scabbing is specific.

exactly...nobody is on strike...nobody is flying struck work.

 

[GuppyWN]

You have to admit, SWA is kicking butt in DEN. It could easily happen in ATL if DAL assumes it can't happen.

Somebody better tell Fubi that someone hacked his account and made a pro Southwest comment!

Gup

 

[laker4284]

You guys need to dig a little deeper than the obvious. SWA didn't buy Morris for its SLC ops. As was pointed out, SLC is a relatively small O&D city. Rather, SWA bought them for instant access to many of Morris' other cities (i.e. SEA, PDX) in the face of the new and unknown United Shuttle. That kind of quick reassessment of competition allowed SWA(and has allowed them in other situations) to get a foot in the door and, ultimately, beat back the Shuttle. God knows we all know how THAT turned out.

Mock SWA all you want, but there are very few places where they failed, NO places they don't make money, they haven't furloughed and they haven't been bankrupt. They just keep on keepin' on.

If SWA perceives that the Air Tran thing isn't going to work as they had hoped they most definitely, based on their history, can (and will?) amend their original plan, possibly in ways that the Air Tran folks won't be happy with.

They are a wicked good competitor.

 

[Music]

If SWA perceives that the Air Tran thing isn't going to work as they had hoped they most definitely, based on their history, can (and will?) amend their original plan, possibly in ways that the Air Tran folks won't be happy with.

Question:

Why is it so important for you guys to threaten (or convey threats of the GO)? Is it that you're truly concerned for our well being? Or is it just to mock? I honestly can't figure out what purpose it serves.

I fully understand that when I get to vote that it will not be a vote on the SL,I but a vote on whether to stay employed. SW pilots, on the other hand will be voting on the solely on the merits of the SLI.

Big difference.

Hence the first question.

 

[madjack]

MUSIC,

My understanding is that SWA mgmt talked "straight" with your MC when they presented the last SL (Mike VDV specifically)...is that threat or cold hard realities in tough economic times...?

 

[redflyer65]

Question:

Why is it so important for you guys to threaten (or convey threats of the GO)? Is it that you're truly concerned for our well being? Or is it just to mock?.

Music,

You do understand the reality of what's ahead, right? Put your head in the sand if you like. No fear mongering when the facts are the facts.

And I'm not even sure Laker works for SW.

 

[Music]

MUSIC,

My understanding is that SWA mgmt talked "straight" with your MC when they presented the last SL (Mike VDV specifically)...is that threat or cold hard realities in tough economic times...?

I can't answer that with any certainty. What I can say is that this whole process has been difficult to understand.

How you ask?

First we negotiate a Process Agreement Yet it's clear that this was just done placate our union. The reality is that there was never any intent to follow it to its ultimate outcome (if that would have been necessary). Furthermore, this was to have been a "Labor" negotiation between two unions, NOT Labor and Management, which has been the case.

Now, the reality is what it is. It doesn't change the fact that I will be voting on an agreement to be employed and you will be voting on an agreement that effects your seniority position. Economics or not, our voting positions are by far, disparate.

Make no mistake, I will put this behind me (in fact I already have) because there is only one way for me to vote. I live my life as an optimist and will look forward to the future, no matter what that entails.

 

[Music]

Music,

You do understand the reality of what's ahead, right? Put your head in the sand if you like. No fear mongering when the facts are the facts.

And I'm not even sure Laker works for SW.

Red,

Why do you keep hitting me with the ostrich comment?

I don't believe I have stated any sort of opinion, other than that I am FULLY aware of the situation. If anything, I'm only trying to find out why there is this need for some on your side to consistently bring up this threat (economic reality, truth, inevitability, or whatever else you want to call it, etc.). It's still a valid question because, because it points to overall "character" of those making the statement.

BTW, I don't know if Laker works for SW or not. IMHO, it's irrelevant to the two questions I asked. If I implied that, I did so in error.

 

[Sacha]

I think Music gets it along with more and more rank and file. I know my blunt opinions were directed more at two other groups. PCL, Ty and a few other Airtran guys whom most of us at SWA know their identities and Trolls from other airlines who for various reasons hate SWA. Both groups are playing fast and loose with careers that are paying salaries between 100 and 300 grand. One group is hateful. The other is stupid. This is reality plain and simple.

I have dealt with two management groups in my career. First, Frank Lorenzo,Phil Bakes and Joe Leonard. Second, Herb Kelleher, Colleen Barrett and Gary Kelly. I like Herb,Colleen and Gary more, but I also fear pissing them off much,much more....they are infinitely smarter than the first three jerks. Take it for what it's worth....

 

[laker4284]

Question:

Why is it so important for you guys to threaten (or convey threats of the GO)? Is it that you're truly concerned for our well being? Or is it just to mock? I honestly can't figure out what purpose it serves.

I fully understand that when I get to vote that it will not be a vote on the SL,I but a vote on whether to stay employed. SW pilots, on the other hand will be voting on the solely on the merits of the SLI.

Big difference.

Hence the first question.

Not mocking. No threats. I don't have a dog in the hunt. I was just pointing out that SWA is a fearsome competitor and if people think LUV means they're all touchy and feely, they are misreading history. How it shakes out for Air Tran or SWAPA remains to be seen.

Many of us have found, to our everlasting chagrin, that even the much-loved Kelleher can be one helluva guy to jerk around. He's all business first and foremost. The Wild Turkey is a side show.

All I'm saying is, one has to deal with him as he really is not how he is portrayed in the legend or the media. That's not a threat. Just a reality. Those who have blown off SWA as a lightweight or laughed at Kelleher's antics have lived to regret it.

 

[maru657]

Never. The definition of scabbing is specific.

Not that specific, but who cares, you can rationalize anything. In any event there is a sort of widespread belief that the arrogance and sense of entitlement displayed by SWAPA is above and beyond. Your 11 year co-pilots are determined to get ahead no matter who they step on in the process and it's no accident that SWAPA has probably blown the opportunity to merge twice in a row. I can see why Herb and Kelly are getting a little desperate. No merger, no growth and the entire business plan depends upon growth. That's the downside of the de-regulation business model.

 

[Wesb737fo]

A failure to fully understand the terrain upon which you are fighting will ultimately end in one's demise.

 

[shootr]

Not that specific, but who cares...

SWAPA has probably blown the opportunity to merge twice in a row.

Scab - One who flies legally struck work by crossing a line, refusing to strike, or while flying for another carrier.

I challenge you to show me another definition that applies to pilots.

You have how many hours and don't know what a scab is? Don't throw around that word like it's a regular insult. Call us d***heads or a**holes if you wish. Reserve SCAB for when it's appropriate. SWA has a few...AT has a few more. NOTHING to do with this SLI stuff.

shootr

PS SWAPA blew it? Are you insane?