Sorry...I've had it!

[320AV8R]

FWIW-

I ran into the NWA JS Coordinator yesterday, & we had a chat.

I relayed the story on this thread, & he was unaware of it. He was, however, preparing to contact a DTW DC9 CA. Apparently, this CA denied a JB pilot the JS, & it was being taken very seriously. Our JS Coordinator is very proactive in resolving these issues, & has been so for the past 7 years.

Unfortunately, he is being replaced as the JS Coordinator. It will be hard for his replacement to out perform him. Irregardless, the message is that these issues are not taken lightly. Hopefully, this matter can be resolved.

Happy New Year to All,

320AV8R

 

[Palomino]

Hallelujah.

Maybe they can burn a NWA Captain in effigy and send you the ashes.

I feel better knowing that tattletales are out there commanding large amounts of metal through the skies.

 

[A350]

Palomino:

I am curious, why are you so against this?

A350

 

[Laughing_Jakal]

He shoulda just

.....offered to clean the airplane like he does on his own plane. Then he would have gotten a ride. ;-)

The Captain was a "tool" operating within his rights.
$Hit happens, sometimes you don't get a seat. This complaint has lasted so long, it is whining.

'nuff said

 

[Okaythen]

This may be somewhere in this neverending thread, but I didn't see it:

The jumpseat is ultimately controlled by the PIC, not because of company policy or contract language, but because of FAR 121.547:

§ 121.547 Admission to flight deck.

(a) No person may admit any person to the flight deck of an aircraft unless the person being admitted is—
(1) A crewmember;
(2) An FAA air carrier inspector, a DOD commercial air carrier evaluator, or an authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board, who is performing official duties;
(3) Any person who—
(i) Has permission of the pilot in command, an appropriate management official of the part 119 certificate holder, and the Administrator; and
(ii) Is an employee of—
(A) The United States, or
(B) A part 119 certificate holder and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is necessary or advantageous for safe operation; or
(C) An aeronautical enterprise certificated by the Administrator and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is necessary or advantageous for safe operation.
(4) Any person who has the permission of the pilot in command, an appropriate management official of the part 119 certificate holder and the Administrator. Paragraph (a)(2) of this section does not limit the emergency authority of the pilot in command to exclude any person from the flightdeck in the interests of safety.
(b) For the purposes of paragraph (a)(3) of this section, employees of the United States who deal responsibly with matters relating to safety and employees of the certificate holder whose efficiency would be increased by familiarity with flight conditions, may be admitted by the certificate holder. However, the certificate holder may not admit employees of traffic, sales, or other departments that are not directly related to flight operations, unless they are eligible under paragraph (a)(4) of this section.


Recently, a major airline tried to discipline a Captain for denying someone the jumpseat. The FAA firmly took the side of the Captain.

 

[NTS ALL 4]

Youn flooging tool. I'm ALPA. What does ALPA say? I know ALPA says, "the jumpseat cannot be denied unless there is a safety of flight issue or a weight issue" period. Not " I don't like someone because of race,creed, color,sex or all the other EEOC issues". We are all furloughed from somewhere and just need a ride to get to work and back. Enough said!!

Cheers!

 

[Palomino]

Palomino:

I am curious, why are you so against this?

A350

see Laughing Jakal post above. it gives me tired-head. it sucks to be left behind. i've been there.

try and walk in a NWA pilot's shoes for one day. they have much bigger concerns than getting bumped from a flight.

i offer an objective view. some don't like that. oh well.

 

[Boeingman]

try and walk in a NWA pilot's shoes for one day.

To bad they aren't walking in those shoes with their brothers on the AMFA picket line.

 

[320AV8R]

To bad they aren't walking in those shoes with their brothers on the AMFA picket line.

Jesus, Mary & Joseph…….do we have to go over THIS again ? I guess so.

The IAM was ousted by AMFA, a renegade stand-alone union that had no interaction with the other unions on the property. Negotiations broke down & they struck. No other union supported them. Their picketing permit has expired. Their strike center is closed. Mgmt recently proposed to give them 1 or 2 months severance pay, pay them for unused vacation, etc, and provide Unemployment benefits. They voted it down.

NWA ALPA pilots will be in their own shoes picketing this week.

WRT the topic at hand….. hopefully everyone can avoid any JS problems, & have a prosperous 2006.

320AV8R

 

[Ty Webb]

Maybe this NWA Cpt. just got a furlough notice or something.

Crackpipe jockey . . . . what are you, a complete idiot? Yeah, maybe this captain was furloughed out of seniority, ahead of all the FO's on the seniority list . . .

Let's see what other "gems" of knowlege we can cull from your post.

I can sympathize with the NWA guy. He has watched a prosperous career get washed down the drain the past 4 years. He has watched airlines come in and with their significantly lower costs, due in part to employees willing to work for half as much

The problems that NWA and other legacies are having are not that of pilots "willing to work for half the pay". If that was true, Delta and NWA would have been profitable in December . . . after all, they are now working for the same or less as the LCC pilots . . . . . .It is a combination of bad management, high oil, 9/11, internet pricing, and the relative seniority of Legacy crews.

Give the guy a break, he's firing some of the last shots in a lost war to save this profession.

WTFO?? He's saving the profession by denying a jumpseat to another pilot? Most pilots with a little common sense would argue that this type of mindest is exactly what caused the problems this profession is having right now. If pilots were to stick together, you wouldn't have "whipsaws" and "scope problems". Everyone would be working for the same high rates across the board.

This idiot captain denying the jumpseat is simply a dinosaur who doesn't see the big picture, and you are his retarded concubine and one man fan club.

 

[graseby]

JB pilots are definitely not the lowest paid according what this Air Canada pilot has compiled.

http://acpilot.blogspot.com/2005/11/pay-survey-of-north-american-airlines_29.html

 

[Boeingman]

Jesus, Mary & Joseph…….do we have to go over THIS again ? I guess so.

The IAM was ousted by AMFA, a renegade stand-alone union that had no interaction with the other unions on the property. Negotiations broke down & they struck. No other union supported them. Their picketing permit has expired. Their strike center is closed. Mgmt recently proposed to give them 1 or 2 months severance pay, pay them for unused vacation, etc, and provide Unemployment benefits. They voted it down.

NWA ALPA pilots will be in their own shoes picketing this week.

WRT the topic at hand….. hopefully everyone can avoid any JS problems, & have a prosperous 2006.

320AV8R

I understand what you are saying, but the situation at NWA called for everyone to bury the hatchet regardless of what was going on politically with the unions. You guys made a fatal mistake in not realizing your enemy was management not some renegade union so to speak.

I guarantee you NWA management will focus next on decimating ALPA now that they have learned the employees will not stick togethor. Then they will go after the next union. Strength in numbers is not just a catch all phrase.

Those who do not learn from history are bound to repeat it.

Now my name isn't Joseph or Mary...but I have been know to hear the term Jesus by my wife when she....never mind.

 

[Ty Webb]

Now my name isn't Joseph or Mary...but I have been know to hear the term Jesus by my wife when she....never mind.

That oughta bring the blue-noses out of the woodwork pretty quickly . . . . . .

 

[320AV8R]

I understand what you are saying, but the situation at NWA called for everyone to bury the hatchet regardless of what was going on politically with the unions. You guys made a fatal mistake in not realizing your enemy was management not some renegade union so to speak.

Do a search about this....it's been covered over and over and over again. We tried to fight Mgmt with AMFA & got the finger. They wanted to be on their own. Mgmt won, they lost. We've moved on.

I guarantee you NWA management will focus next on decimating ALPA now that they have learned the employees will not stick togethor. Then they will go after the next union. Strength in numbers is not just a catch all phrase.

That's why our latest Agreement was tied to all the other unions participating. Sans AMFA, there is more cohesion.

Those who do not learn from history are bound to repeat it.

True.

320AV8R

 

[pipejockey]

Crackpipe jockey . . . . what are you, a complete idiot? Yeah, maybe this captain was furloughed out of seniority, ahead of all the FO's on the seniority list .

Ok, I'll give you that about the captain being furloghed. Everyone else knew what I meant. I will state it more accurately since it appears I am on trial by the court of Webb!! I know you are a defender of the LCC way of doing business. I am not!!!

"maybe this NWA Capt. just got displaced to FO and his pay thereby cut in half, or perhaps he now must fly smaller equipment for less pay."

And as for crackpipe comment, I'll give you that one as well. It might be a way I can hallucinate myself back 5 years ago when most of us had some sort of future to look forward to in this profession.

The problems that NWA and other legacies are having are not that of pilots "willing to work for half the pay". If that was true, Delta and NWA would have been profitable in December . . . after all, they are now working for the same or less as the LCC pilots . . . . . .It is a combination of bad management, high oil, 9/11, internet pricing, and the relative seniority of Legacy crews.

Then tell me how United was earning billion dollar profits in 99. And all the other Majors were doing relatively well. I don't have the financials in front of me but all but maybe USAirways were showing hundreds of millions of dollars in profits, while all the while paying their pilots a decent wage with good QOL and time off. Oh yeah and a pension!! a real pension. Not that stuff the LCC's pawn off on ya.

WTFO?? He's saving the profession by denying a jumpseat to another pilot? Most pilots with a little common sense would argue that this type of mindest is exactly what caused the problems this profession is having right now. If pilots were to stick together, you wouldn't have "whipsaws" and "scope problems". Everyone would be working for the same high rates across the board.

When is "Critters" contract up for negotiation? I will expect to see a minimum of 20% raises across the board and scope which prohibits any flying of greater than 50 seaters at a regional.

 

[pipejockey]

Just checked out Critters website and they are charging 72 bucks roundtrip from Atlanta to Savanah. That folks is why the profession is in the dumpster. Anyone who thinks that you should be able to fly for that amount is the one on the crackpipe...not I!

Heres another...60 bucks from EWR to MCO, and 125 roundtrip. WHAT!!!
If prices were to be raised by just 20 bucks one way, everyone would be earning profits.

 

[IB6 UB9]

Just checked out Critters website and they are charging 72 bucks roundtrip from Atlanta to Savanah. That folks is why the profession is in the dumpster. Anyone who thinks that you should be able to fly for that amount is the one on the crackpipe...not I!

Heres another...60 bucks from EWR to MCO, and 125 roundtrip. WHAT!!!
If prices were to be raised by just 20 bucks one way, everyone would be earning profits.

Care to guess what airline went against almost every attempt at raising the fares dating back at least 10-12 years?

 

[Palomino]

i'll take a guess...the airline that you have an ultra-grudge against?

 

[DTW320]

Yeah, Airtran and Jetblue have been desperately trying to raise fares over the years and that mean 'ol NWA has stopped 'em. GMAFB...

I gotta get over to Wendy's so I can go through the trash for cups so I can get an Airtran ticket.....or maybe I should just pay JB the $25 for JFK-BOS....

 

[AA717driver]

Yeah, Airtran and Jetblue have been desperately trying to raise fares over the years and that mean 'ol NWA has stopped 'em. GMAFB...

I gotta get over to Wendy's so I can go through the trash for cups so I can get an Airtran ticket.....or maybe I should just pay JB the $25 for JFK-BOS....

Uh, excuse me, but JB and AirTran pilots are going to be making more than any legacy NB pilots. If they want to charge nothing, make a profit and pay top dollar (for the industry today) who cares?TC

 

[Ty Webb]

Just checked out Critters website and they are charging 72 bucks roundtrip from Atlanta to Savanah.

This has been covered multiple times on this board over the past four years, Chief. . . . we don't set the price any more than the major that dumps capacity into that market does . . . . Normally, I'd be happy to explain it to you, but if you can't even call the airline I fly for by its name, there isn't any reason to spend the time to straighten your ignorant ass out. . . . . . .

So, let's just call it what it is:

Your career expectations are not being met, and so, it's somebody else's fault . . . . sucks to be you.



.

 

[DTW320]

Quote:
Originally Posted by DTW320
Yeah, Airtran and Jetblue have been desperately trying to raise fares over the years and that mean 'ol NWA has stopped 'em. GMAFB...

I gotta get over to Wendy's so I can go through the trash for cups so I can get an Airtran ticket.....or maybe I should just pay JB the $25 for JFK-BOS....

Uh, excuse me, but JB and AirTran pilots are going to be making more than any legacy NB pilots. If they want to charge nothing, make a profit and pay top dollar (for the industry today) who cares?TC

Uh, excuse ME, but tell me more about that crystal ball of yours.

The JB guidance of a 4th qtr AND full year 2005 loss is wrong?

JB is making a profit on those $25 fares?

Airtran pilots will prevail in mediation and the company will back down on the requests for cost cuts?

AMR, at least, would have to take a hefty paycut on the NB to make less than JB or AirTran pilots. Not to mention 757 rates at CO. And all of that is in the left seat. FO rates at most legacies would have to come down a lot more to be less than FO rates at JB/AirTran. But Hey, they probably will at the rate we're going. I'm not at all debating the magnitude of the pay cuts at the legacies and the relative strength of the LCC payscales. But lets keep it strictly to facts please.

Besides, none of this was about what LCC pilots make, it was about the claim that NWA not going along with fare increases on some walk-up fares in a few markets was responsible for AirTran not being able to raise ticket prices reulting in the sample fares posted by pipejockey....

FOCUS: I don't think it has been JB/AirTran who has been upset with NWA not going along with some fare increases in the past.

 

[Ty Webb]

Airtran pilots will prevail in mediation and the company will back down on the requests for cost cuts?

The Company's proposal was put out to try to lower expectations . . . it was not taken seriously by the pilot group. I think we are in a great position- working under the current contract as the airline revenue picture improves, and we will have the opportunity to increase our requests if conditions continue to improve . . .

AMR, at least, would have to take a hefty paycut on the NB to make less than JB or AirTran pilots.

Depends how you look at it. I was hired at AirTran in 2001. If I was hired at American that same year, I'd have been furloughed this whole time.

Even if I worked the whole time, at current pay scales, I would have made more total pay at AirTran over the past four years, and would continue to make more every year, based upon the fact that your most junior CA upgraded when George Bush SR. was President (current contract, both carriers) and my retirement is safe.

 

[Palomino]

... and my retirement is safe.

to quote Hemingway...'isn't it pretty to think so?'

 

[DTW320]

based upon the fact that your most junior CA upgraded when George Bush SR. was President (current contract, both carriers) and my retirement is safe.

Hey Ty, like I said in my post: lets stick to the facts please: The junior CA at NWA was HIRED in the summer of 1995(he's MSP reserve DC9) so either you are being fed bad info or your presidential history is seriously flawed.

The Company's proposal was put out to try to lower expectations . . . it was not taken seriously by the pilot group.

Hey, I respect your position but lets see how seriously Joe and the mediators take it OK? Plus the fact that, by your own admission, you guys are in many cases making more than legacy pilots certainly does not help your negotiating position. But then I'm coming from a background of dealing with a company that negotiated even dirtier when they were making big profits. I hope for your sake that there is a positive corporate culture at Airtran and that agreeing that employees should share in the good times is part of management's mindset.

I agree with your other point, i.e. it's all about timing. The fact that for quite a few years our FO's were making more than JB/Airtran Captains has to be factored in. Would a post 1998 NWA hire have done better going to Airtran at the same time? Yes, but many others are still doing better in terms of total compensation, including, until recently, vastly superior benefits.

Blue Skies....

 

[Ty Webb]

Hey Ty, like I said in my post: lets stick to the facts please: The junior CA at NWA was HIRED in the summer of 1995(he's MSP reserve DC9) so either you are being fed bad info or your presidential history is seriously flawed.

I think you missed the reference to AMR, whose most junior CA was a 1990 hire, according to airlinepilotcentral.com:

Most junior captain hired: Feb 1990 (MD80/LGA)

 

[Ty Webb]

to quote Hemingway...'isn't it pretty to think so?'

Uh, yeah, Chief . . . it's deposited twice a month into my Fidelity account.

And to quote Murphy, "Never try to teach a pig to sing".

 

[DTW320]

I think you missed the reference to AMR, whose most junior CA was a 1990 hire, according to airlinepilotcentral.com:

Oh, OK....it was the way you said "your most junior captain" that made me, with a screen name of DTW320, think you meant NWA. But since you are talking about AMR, how is their B plan retirement less safe than yours?

 

[bestpilot]

Just checked out Critters website and they are charging 72 bucks roundtrip from Atlanta to Savanah. That folks is why the profession is in the dumpster. Anyone who thinks that you should be able to fly for that amount is the one on the crackpipe...not I!

Heres another...60 bucks from EWR to MCO, and 125 roundtrip. WHAT!!!
If prices were to be raised by just 20 bucks one way, everyone would be earning profits.
__________________



When is "Critters" contract up for negotiation? I will expect to see a minimum of 20% raises across the board and scope which prohibits any flying of greater than 50 seaters at a regional.
__________________

Mommy! Baaad dude called me Critter again! Booooo hoooooo hoooooo, now I think dat you aint meain to be showin me love be callin me Critter, but dude, it's ALLLLL GOOOOD! Unless you be on dat negotiatin committee or be like one of da peeps who gonna be votin fer da Tranny's next contract, then just wait and see what da peeps git. Here's da deal, my brother from another mother, all the peeps who are at the Tranny know that we're a LOW COST Carryin type of place, and aint nobody expectin like crazy pay raises. Do da peeps at the Tranny want better workin rules? Aww Yeah!

Do we wants contract language dats easier to read and clearer dan like dat stuff I be typin on flightinf? Awww Yeah!

Pay Raise?--Yeah bro, dat be OK too!

Super crazy pay raise dat flushes dat ole competitive advantage stuff down dat porcelin terlit? --Naw bro, lots a da dudes from da Tranny gots da furlough before, and all we be lookin fer is a contract dat makes dis a good place to be workin and a place where we can be keepin our job and our bennies for like way way way way in to da future.

Dats da kind a contract da Trannies be talkin bouts!!

 

[bestpilot]

Uh, yeah, Chief . . . it's deposited twice a month into my Fidelity account.

And to quote Murphy, "Never try to teach a pig to sing".

Ty Guy, why can'ts you try to be teachin da piggy to sing. I saw Charlotte's Web, an like ole Zuckerman's Famous pig had like mad singin skillz.