Some Delta/NWA route swaps......

[PuffDriver]

I was told the same thing too Puff, but it appears that as of late last week, they may opt to displace. I hope to get more info this week.

They are going to displace. Severe shortage in the 88 right seat. The plan is not in place enough in order to justify hiring at this time. Believe me, I asked. I don't think that the SOC is remotely as far along as you think it is. Either that or the blank stare has been perfected when questions are asked.

I had to edit regarding SOC. When I refer to it, I mean a traditional SOC--where all of a sudden BAM the operations are merged. This does not preclude the FEDs from buying off on a new concept of SOC, where much of the burden is placed on Delta. If they can get the FEDS to buy off on a plan rather than an actual FOM, fleet manuals--then I think that we could see an "SOC" very soon. Hell, nothing in this merger has been traditional, so why should SOC. The day that operations are truly "one", with all fleets combined in the same operating procedures, bases in place, and crews intermingled completely--IOW complete operational freedom--is a ways off.

 

[PuffDriver]

The dal side is overstatfed yet they want to hire? how does that make sense? I hope it happens for either side but that doesn't make much sense.

Because it is cheaper to hire than to displace. I would think that with you and Nu's VAST knowledge, that such information would be obvious. As things look now, we will have to hire, a lot. NWA will be short when brought to staffing, and there will be the need for an enormous training bubble for the next several years after SOC to get the placement correct.

That being said, the environment with fuel, demand, fleet, and numerous factors changes sometimes by the minute. In such a dynamic environment, the conservative approach is the best plan. That includes keeping staffing at minimum legal levels--including duty rigs as long as possible on the NWA side.

Your bitching, moaning, breath holding are no longer going to be heeded. They have run their course as effective tools in the arsenal. The immediate future is about survival. Nasty stuff is in tore for 09-mid 10. This calls for calm, rational decision making on the part of the MEC as to picking and choosing battles to be fought. It's about keeping pilots employed at Delta as opposed to growth. It's about keeping the ship afloat.

 

[Fly4hire]

Invigorating a whole fleet for approximately 1 year does not justify cost with regard to duty rigs. Go bark up another tree.

Now go run around to all of the other boards you frequent and pass it on.

You mean the tree of it's in the contract and the DAL MEC apparently has no desire to enforce areas of the contract that apply to the pre-merger NWA pilots? BP5 if upheld will still be within a year. Planning on helping management past that?

More "Stars upon Thars" from DALPA. Who got rich before the Sneetches figured it out?

 

[PuffDriver]

BP5 if upheld will still be within a year.

Exactly. Nuff said. Quit yer bitch'en. This is going to come as a shock to you, but everything does NOT revolve around FNWA pilots.

 

[clippyrip]

--right out of the COOs mouth to me--personally.

Run to the bank and cash it, it's gold.

They are going to displace.

OK...

Because it is cheaper to hire than to displace.

That contradicts what you said one post ago.

 

[Noserider76]

"Because it's cheaper to hire than to displace"

That contradicts what you said one post ago.

From a short term perspective at least it is. A new hire can be brought in, trained and put right into the MD-88 FO slot. To displace into that position you not only have to retrain the 767 FO you put in the -88 FO spot but possibly many people depending on what categories the displacements come from and how deep they go. Along with that, displacements will generate moving expenses and bad will from the pilot group.

I hope they have their crap together because fuel prices are nearly at an all time low and I don't believe this recession may be as long or as bad as predicted with the massive amounts of government money flowing. If we learned anything from the massive cuts of a few years ago it's that when you cut there's always someone willing to step in and fill the void.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Run to the bank and cash it, it's gold.

I'll take the word of puff over the ramblings of some FNG.

OK...


That contradicts what you said one post ago.

Oh you mean like this.

Are you kidding? Listening to a Delta pilot complain about this list is laughable. You guys leap frogged tons of NWA pilots older and more experienced:laugh: and you are still are not happy? Go cry at home and not on a public forum, my fiddle for you is so small I can't find it to play.

And then this:

Get over it my man and move on, everyone has a sad story to tell. Some more than others.

 

[Fly4hire]

Exactly. Nuff said. Quit yer bitch'en. This is going to come as a shock to you, but everything does NOT revolve around FNWA pilots.

No it doesn't, however the trip-rig issue is real $$ and positions - in terms of possible displacements or lack of upgrades. I'm sure if it was you, you'd fight for it tooth and nail. Or maybe you wouldn't....pass the Kool-Aid.

 

[jetjockey#1]

From a short term perspective at least it is. A new hire can be brought in, trained and put right into the MD-88 FO slot. To displace into that position you not only have to retrain the 767 FO you put in the -88 FO spot but possibly many people depending on what categories the displacements come from and how deep they go. Along with that, displacements will generate moving expenses and bad will from the pilot group.

I hope they have their crap together because fuel prices are nearly at an all time low and I don't believe this recession may be as long or as bad as predicted with the massive amounts of government money flowing. If we learned anything from the massive cuts of a few years ago it's that when you cut there's always someone willing to step in and fill the void.

That is being very optimitstic. More than likely, you might have 76 fo to 73 one training cycle, 73 fo to 88, and back again. In addition to that, you might have people displaced at different bases complicating the issue even more.

I just don't see the furloughs happening. All you have to do is to look at the June 09 staffing requirements. The ATL 7er is projected to have 511 pilots, and right now we have 513. If the company is lying about these projections, or that number is going to dramatically change, maybe I can see displacements, but as of today, there is no way they are displacing pilots based on the summer schedule. Let's don't forget DAL was expecting to hire as of 45 days ago.

 

[Noserider76]

No it doesn't, however the trip-rig issue is real $$ and positions - in terms of possible displacements or lack of upgrades. I'm sure if it was you, you'd fight for it tooth and nail. Or maybe you wouldn't....pass the Kool-Aid.

To sign a contract and think management will use all the flexibility it allows is naive at best. Management will not give up that flexibility without a cost. Nearly all the money for the pilot group in this merger has gone to your side as it is. Should the entire group give up anything else to further fund your bank account? I don't see the ability to early cross bid categories at this point as a great deal for FDL guys.

 

[PuffDriver]

Run to the bank and cash it, it's gold.



OK...



That contradicts what you said one post ago.

Run to the bank and cash it. That is correct, and subject to change. I know that you guys like to take things and run with your own distorted version of it. Simply put, they want to hire, but with the dynamic situation at hand, they don't want to hire only to turn around and be overstaffed should the doomsday scenario happen. Additionally, I know this may come as a shock to you, the NWA tend to get a bit emotional about things. Hiring over at Delta while stagnation from following the letter of the contract ala BP5, may cause emotional vindictiveness from the NWA pilot group despite the fact that it is a short term solution. So, at least at the time of the conversation, the choice was to displace and eat the higher cost since the side letter regarding higher time windows for 88 f/os is running short.

Contrary to belief of some, my posts have not contradicted themselves, they just have been read with tainted eyes.

 

[Noserider76]

Additionally, I know this may come as a shock to you, the NWA tend to get a bit emotional about things. Hiring over at Delta while stagnation from following the letter of the contract ala BP5, may cause emotional vindictiveness from the NWA pilot group despite the fact that it is a short term solution. So, at least at the time of the conversation, the choice was to displace and eat the higher cost since the side letter regarding higher time windows for 88 f/os is running short.

Which will most likely cause emotional vindictiveness from the FDL group which has received the sh*t end of every merger related stick up to this point. If DL needs to hire into DL positions pre-SOC they should be doing it.

 

[clippyrip]

Scope out RJ's This message is hidden because Scope out RJ's is on your ignore list.

Sweeter than Yoohoo!

 

[PuffDriver]

No it doesn't, however the trip-rig issue is real $$ and positions - in terms of possible displacements or lack of upgrades. I'm sure if it was you, you'd fight for it tooth and nail. Or maybe you wouldn't....pass the Kool-Aid.

Of course it is real $$ and positions. It is also a losing battle. Guess what else? It is being addressed. The language is there, and it's clear.

One MEC has approached the entire merger from a business perspective, a rational perspective, and a handle-from-within perspective.

One MEC has approached it from an emotional perspective, a confrontational perspective, and a negotiate-in press-release perspective.

I'll leave it to you decide from your emotional standpoint which MEC has come out on top time and time again, and which MEC has come out looking like chumps time and time again.

Same for the FI boards.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Those projections were done before the last pull down in flying. Take 4% off of that number to start. In essence it is not a lot, but it is 20 or so people.

Also, I am not sure that it is the ATL ERB that will get hammered. It may in fact be NYC. Just wait.
Fact is that we are overstaffed for the current flying, not the future flying. Summer will prove to be green slip country unless there is another pull down. Fact is that it is not flight ops that is saying we DO NOT need to hire. It is a lot higher up than that. We actually have needed bodies for quite some time.
It is quite normal for us to be grossly overstaffed in the winter months. Look where the SIL's are. They are not on the ATL 767. They are MOSTLY on the international birds.
What DAL management has right now is a very difficult situation. We are fat now, if the loads remain steady, as they have, we will not be fat come April. They are at a fork in the road on how to deal with this. Hiring is cheaper, but does not look good to the non-unionized groups, who have union votes coming up. The facts that are effecting this have not changed.

 

[clippyrip]

Additionally, I know this may come as a shock to you, the NWA tend to get a bit emotional about things. Hiring over at Delta while stagnation from following the letter of the contract ala BP5, may cause emotional vindictiveness from the NWA pilot group despite the fact that it is a short term solution.

There is no stagnation over here, we are the ones with the retirements. Also, the way it looks right now with the reduced trip rigs for FNWA, we will be getting all the work. There is no vindictiveness, we are just trying to get a handle on what the company plans to do before SOC. For your sake, I hope they hire at Delta but that does not really add up with a displacement AE on it's way. We'll see.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Scope out RJ's This message is hidden because Scope out RJ's is on your ignore list.

Sweeter than Yoohoo!

But not as good as Kool aid, eh sparky?

 

[Fly4hire]

Of course it is real $$ and positions. It is also a losing battle. Guess what else? It is being addressed. The language is there, and it's clear.
.

According to your management. Our attorneys and contract folks see it differently.

It does not cost FDAL pilots a dime, and will require more pilots for all of us sooner than later - so why are you opposing it? I understand management fighting it but not DALPA....

 

[clippyrip]

Scope out RJ's This message is hidden because Scope out RJ's is on your ignore list.

I don't have a clue what you wrote, but I'm sure it's positive and filled with important information.

I think of your posts like I think of the Germans. I have not been impressed with what I've seen in the past and I don't look forward to what comes next.

 

[PuffDriver]

According to your management. Our attorneys and contract folks see it differently.

It does not cost FDAL pilots a dime, and will require more pilots for all of us sooner than later - so why are you opposing it? I understand management fighting it but not DALPA....

Your attorneys and contract folks: seems to me as if they have been failing you for years in light of all of the arbitration you've had. Or maybe they are out for job security.

Regardless, this thread has run its course for me. You guys never have been rational in any way shape or form. Don't know why you'd start now.