SkyWest=Forrest Gump

[JoeMerchant]

You are trying to attempt to know what I think?



The ALPA cult Joe?

Let's see you ran for ALPA council S/T and won. You were an ALPA Officer. Gee.... sounds like you like the cult pretty well.

Then as an ALPA Officer you couldn't even stick to basic responsbilities like attending meetings and meeting minutes. Gee Joe... you signed up to the cult and couldn't even do the basics...

Then when the 2002(?) BOD was held... you were uninvited to attend. You pissed off so many people, that even though you were a Officer of the Cult.. you were told to stay home...


Sounds like someone is pissed they didn't picked to play basketball...

.....I've just been de-progammed....

So would you rather work at Mesa or Skywest? Simple question.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

.....I've just been de-progammed....

No... you're just shallow, self centered, bitter, hurt from rejection and non objective...

So would you rather work at Mesa or Skywest? Simple question.....

Which ever provided the best opportunity for my family. Who would you rather work for? ASA or OO


Simple question... What good does ALPA do? Any?

 

[JoeMerchant]

No... you're just shallow, self centered, bitter, hurt from rejection and non objective...

Well let's go over your incorrect ASSumptions one by one....

1. Shallow....Hardly...As someone who would be more than happy to fly my little ATR around until I can load up the trawler and head for St. Somewhere.....I am hardly "shallow"....I am not concerned about "image"....so you need to find a different criticism...

2. Self centered.....Well now this one depends....If you mean I care about my career at my company...than guilty as charged.....Psst..look around the threads....You will see a lot of this "self-centered" attitude amongst those wearing ALPA pins and crowing about "unity"....

3. Bitter....Nope...actually happy as a clam...I've been at one carrier for almost 15 years and each year has been better than the previous....Many aren't that fortunate in this business....I am very fortunate....

4. Hurt from rejection....Wrong again...Some have rejected my views and some embrace my views...You can't please everyone......I have had a lot of opportunities to say "I told ya so...."

Which ever provided the best opportunity for my family. Who would you rather work for? ASA or OO


Simple question... What good does ALPA do? Any?

You gave an honest answer and so will I....ALPA has done lot's of good things....They are in my opinion the best of the airline unions.....That being said...it isn't good enough in this new environment....

The Catholic Church has done lot's of good things....but the abuse issue caused much harm to many people....Do you know what finally caused the church to address the issue and do something about it? It was the lawsuits.....Many people tried to address it within the organization.....but the "red tape" and desire to protect the organization prevent any meaningful reform....Much like what happens in any large organization.....such as ALPA....

Why would you choose Skywest over Mesa if it provided the best opportunity for your family....If Skywest isn't good for the "profession"....does that mean you would put your interests ahead of those of the profession?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Well let's go over your incorrect ASSumptions one by one....

1. Shallow....Hardly...As someone who would be more than happy to fly my little ATR around until I can load up the trawler and head for St. Somewhere.....I am hardly "shallow"....I am not concerned about "image"....so you need to find a different criticism...

Content with your ATR has nothing to do with character....

2. Self centered.....Well now this one depends....If you mean I care about my career at my company...than guilty as charged.....Psst..look around the threads....You will see a lot of this "self-centered" attitude amongst those wearing ALPA pins and crowing about "unity"....

Joe you are singing a new tune... glad to hear it...

3. Bitter....Nope...actually happy as a clam...I've been at one carrier for almost 15 years and each year has been better than the previous....Many aren't that fortunate in this business....I am very fortunate....

But not content enough not to sue...

4. Hurt from rejection....Wrong again...Some have rejected my views and some embrace my views...You can't please everyone......I have had a lot of opportunities to say "I told ya so...."

Joe... its more than your views...

You gave an honest answer and so will I....ALPA has done lot's of good things....They are in my opinion the best of the airline unions.....That being said...it isn't good enough in this new environment....

So let's work to keep it up and our heads above water.... yes?

The Catholic Church has done lot's of good things....but the abuse issue caused much harm to many people....Do you know what finally caused the church to address the issue and do something about it? It was the lawsuits.....Many people tried to address it within the organization.....but the "red tape" and desire to protect the organization prevent any meaningful reform....Much like what happens in any large organization.....such as ALPA....

So you equate your perception of career entitlement to the rape of young children?

Why would you choose Skywest over Mesa if it provided the best opportunity for your family....

Becuase it would provide the best opportunity for my family. Are you married? Do you have kids? Translation... do you have any responsibilities to anyone other than yourself?

If Skywest isn't good for the "profession"....does that mean you would put your interests ahead of those of the profession?

Nope... I would work to bring about positive change from within. Don't worry, I probably wouldn't get pass the interview...

 

[Nevets]

Did anyone else find the irony in this line?

'When the companies failed to settle the issue informally, SkyWest said it had to seek legal remedies "to protect our contractual rights under our agreements."'

 

[Nevets]

You know Rez, for someone who doesn't work for SkyWest you sure seem to know all about what is best for SkyWest pilots. Don't you find it interesting that the majority of the threads on here about quality of life and management screwing people are are union represented carriers like Pinnicle and Mesaba? I'm not blaming ALPA, but ALPA doesn't seem to be making things any better at these carriers with as much pissing and moaning that is on these boards.

Of course you can't blame ALPA. Management sets the tone of how it wants to deal with its employees. But just imagine how much worse it would be for the pilots of companies with hostile management if ALPA wasn't there.

 

[Nevets]

The pilots might have more leverage because management wants to keep a union out, so it goes beyond what could be granted in a contract in order to maintain peace in the employees ranks. It has worked at other places

I see what you are saying but some might argue whether that is "more leverage" compared to having a union recognized by the NMB at a company with almost $1 billion dollars in the bank.

 

[Nevets]

I don't claim to know the in's and out's of each individual pilot group's situation, SkyWest pilots included. However, to the educated, semi-outside observer, it would almost seem like "doing just enough to keep things OK" is working better than the "Us vs. Them" mentality that exists at many carriers. That is what is going to keep SkyWest alive as others falter.

I'm know there are many gripes amongst the pilots here...obviously there are enough to warrant a group of great pilots and great people to put together a drive for ALPA representation. However, I believe the majority here will agree that, at pretty much all levels of employment at SKW, the culture is different here (I came from another carrier and am much happier here than I ever was before, as are the friends in other employee groups that followed me here).

If the majority feel that culture fits what they want at this point in their careers, why continuously hammer them for being OK with that? If things blow up in their face because of the lack of representation, then you will have your chance to tell them, "I told you so". But, the continuous bagging on and putting down of SkyWest pilots for opting to roll with what they have isn't likely helping your cause in future organizing drives.

The us versus them mentality does not exist at all airlines. I suspect, from what many have said, that Skywest management would not take that approach. Things can be just a little better for the pilots and things will still be OK for Skywest.

You make a good point about there being enough gripes to get a drive going on three different occasions. At many ALPA airlines, mine included, its not really about the majority. A lot of the resources are used to protect the rights of the minority. Those unfortunate enough to need the assistance of the union because of attendance, training, health, incident/accident, or maybe they just rubbed the chief pilot the wrong way. Just because the majority are OK with the culture doesn't mean that a union is not needed. Many of the "happy" pilots will tell you that as well. Even the ones who have never had to use the assistance of the union. Many of them gain some "happiness" in knowing that others in need are being helped when needed and that that will be there for them as well if needed.

Some of what is said is bagging but not all. Its all part of education and organizing. Those things are always ongoing. Its not always about "I told you so." Unfortunately, it sometimes requires one of those moments to turn the light on for the "majority."

 

[Nevets]

ALPA is their cult and they would rather work for JO with ALPA than for Jerry without ALPA...Says a lot about the ALPA mentality.....

Many of us don't get to pick who our management team are. But you can have the best of both worlds and work for JA with ALPA.

 

[WalterSobchak]

The us versus them mentality does not exist at all airlines. I suspect, from what many have said, that Skywest management would not take that approach. Things can be just a little better for the pilots and things will still be OK for Skywest.

You make a good point about there being enough gripes to get a drive going on three different occasions. At many ALPA airlines, mine included, its not really about the majority. A lot of the resources are used to protect the rights of the minority. Those unfortunate enough to need the assistance of the union because of attendance, training, health, incident/accident, or maybe they just rubbed the chief pilot the wrong way. Just because the majority are OK with the culture doesn't mean that a union is not needed. Many of the "happy" pilots will tell you that as well. Even the ones who have never had to use the assistance of the union. Many of them gain some "happiness" in knowing that others in need are being helped when needed and that that will be there for them as well if needed.

Some of what is said is bagging but not all. Its all part of education and organizing. Those things are always ongoing. Its not always about "I told you so." Unfortunately, it sometimes requires one of those moments to turn the light on for the "majority."

Luis,

You may have just made, quite possibly, the first level-headed argument for SKW pilot organization in FlightInfo history.

Rez and the rest of the ALPA chest-thumpers should learn something from this approach and realize that tearing a man down isn't exactly the best way to convince him over to your side...

 

[pilotyip]

Is that bad?

I see what you are saying but some might argue whether that is "more leverage" compared to having a union recognized by the NMB at a company with almost $1 billion dollars in the bank.

$1 B in bank sounds like job security. Not having money in the bank certainly did not do anything but lead to BK at many other airlines.

 

[pilotyip]

Non-hostile, non-union

Of course you can't blame ALPA. Management sets the tone of how it wants to deal with its employees. But just imagine how much worse it would be for the pilots of companies with hostile management if ALPA wasn't there.

From Business school. "Unions are the result of bad managment" Toyota certainly understands this as they as continued to grow to dominate the US marketplace.

 

[homerjdispatch]

Did anyone else find the irony in this line?

'When the companies failed to settle the issue informally, SkyWest said it had to seek legal remedies "to protect our contractual rights under our agreements."'

I think its Ironic that you use the word Irony where it doesnt fit the definition. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/irony

Its ok, even Alanis Morrisette didnt get it right in her hit song: http://fgk.hanau.net/articles/ironic.html

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Luis,

You may have just made, quite possibly, the first level-headed argument for SKW pilot organization in FlightInfo history.

No. We made numerous arguements during the drive. You just got it sugar coated...

When I talked to OO pilots on the phone during the drive I used sugar, splenda, blue packets, pink ones... whatever it took...

The fustration was kept within and at bay as OO pilots consciously made illogical and self centered arguements... all in the name for themselves. It was all about "What is in it for me!"

Rez and the rest of the ALPA chest-thumpers should learn something from this approach and realize that tearing a man down isn't exactly the best way to convince him over to your side...

Point taken. However, I still haven't gotten a reply from a anti-union/anti-ALPA OO pilot in regards to the services, benefits and industry advancements credited to ALPA.

ALPA pilots give. OO pilots take. OO pilots know this and they don't want to talk about it.. Except the ones that voted for ALPA.

$1 B in bank sounds like job security. Not having money in the bank certainly did not do anything but lead to BK at many other airlines.

What does that have to do with unions?

From Business school. "Unions are the result of bad managment" Toyota certainly understands this as they as continued to grow to dominate the US marketplace.

Glad Herb Kelleher didn't go to traditional biz school. Yip.. you constantly talk about unions negative effects on management. When you do.. keep SWA in mind.

SWA treats there unions as partners. The sooner the Wharton School starts teaching this mentality.. the better...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Joe... are you going to dodge my post #44 or will you answer the questions?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe... are you going to dodge my post #44 or will you answer the questions?

...I'll get to it...patience Grasshopper.....The fact that you are so concerned about my answers and my posts, tells me they are having their desired affect on the ALPA cheerleader section......

 

[pilotyip]

Liquidity

$1 B in bank sounds like job security. Not having money in the bank certainly did not do anything but lead to BK at many other airlines.
What does that have to do with unions? It only has something to do with unions if you think it does. It is about liquidity, if don't have it you cannot survive down times. BTW I agree where management and labour are partners in the execution of the company's mission, you don't need a union. Does SWA have union or a pilot's association?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Content with your ATR has nothing to do with character....

You said "shallow"....that infers that someone is superficial....many of your cohorts fit that description.....The status of being a "real" pilot in this business is our own downfall....I don't fit that category.....

Joe you are singing a new tune... glad to hear it...

Please clarify...I'm not singing a "new" tune....I have been singing the same tune for some time....

So you equate your perception of career entitlement to the rape of young children?

No....I see similarities in how large organizations deal with major problems....They try to cover up the problem and protect the organization regardless of how it affects the membership....Sometimes the only way to affect change in a large organization is to sue or threaten to leave.....otherwise the organization just covers the problem up....

Becuase it would provide the best opportunity for my family. Are you married? Do you have kids? Translation... do you have any responsibilities to anyone other than yourself?

Yes I have responsibilities other than myself.....and I agree that they take presidence.....That is why I feel the way I do....You seem to agree that personal responsibilities trump those of the "profession"....

I have a career here at ASA/Skywest......and I will fight my union if it tries to limit that career.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You said "shallow"....that infers that someone is superficial....many of your cohorts fit that description.....The status of being a "real" pilot in this business is our own downfall....I don't fit that category.....

How much did the lawsuit cost the RJDC?

what is a real pilot? Joe merchant version?

Please clarify...I'm not singing a "new" tune....I have been singing the same tune for some time....

Sorry... if there is nothing new then you are about yourself, apathy, hate, divisiveness, you know... all things Joe Merchant..

No....I see similarities in how large organizations deal with major problems....They try to cover up the problem and protect the organization regardless of how it affects the membership....Sometimes the only way to affect change in a large organization is to sue or threaten to leave.....otherwise the organization just covers the problem up....

So what has really changed at ALPA due to your sue? And what was the dollar cost to sue?

Yes I have responsibilities other than myself.....and I agree that they take presidence.....That is why I feel the way I do....You seem to agree that personal responsibilities trump those of the "profession"....

Actually I believe that by changing the mentality of pilots to take care of the profession it will benefit us all. Do you reject the profession? Right now we got 61,000 indepedent contractors looking out for themsleves.. guys like you... and when they don't get thier way.. they sue.

Joe.. do you think it is all right for any pilot to sue ALPA if he feels unjust? Whether the lawsuit is petty or not... Or should any given pilot excercise a bit of ethics when deciding to sue?

I have a career here at ASA/Skywest......and I will fight my union if it tries to limit that career.....

What about your company? Will you fight your company if they try to limit your career?


What about your gov't? Will you fight your gov't if they try to limit your career?


Of the three, Company, union and gov't. Which one tries to limit your career the least?

Shouldn't you be trying to fight the one that tries to limit your career the most?

 

[JoeMerchant]

How much did the lawsuit cost the RJDC?

what is a real pilot? Joe merchant version?

It cost RJDC far less than it cost ALPA....How much did it cost ALPA?

A real pilot? ALPA's version is a "mainline" pilot.....if you aren't a mainline pilot you don't have a right to your job according to ALPA....

So what has really changed at ALPA due to your sue? And what was the dollar cost to sue?

I don't really care what has changed at ALPA....I don't think anything has changed there....I think we fought off any attempt to force a jetsforjobs screwjob down our throat....ALPA hasn't changed.....

The dollar cost was high for ALPA...most of the RJDC work was done by volunteer pilots who had previous ALPA experience.....the cost was far higher of ALPA who had to pay lawyers to do the work.....

Actually I believe that by changing the mentality of pilots to take care of the profession it will benefit us all. Do you reject the profession? Right now we got 61,000 indepedent contractors looking out for themsleves.. guys like you... and when they don't get thier way.. they sue.

That is exactly what we have now....We are a loose association of independent contractors all looking out for our own best interests.....I am looking out for my best interest....you sure as heck aren't going to look out for my best interest......

Joe.. do you think it is all right for any pilot to sue ALPA if he feels unjust? Whether the lawsuit is petty or not... Or should any given pilot excercise a bit of ethics when deciding to sue?

Should my union exercise a bit of ethics when it negotiates against my interests? Do you think it was all right for Rick Dubinsky or Cress Bernard to sue ALPA? Cress sued for DFR and then voted against the ASA/CMR PID....talk about hypocricy....

There is no ethics in your precious ALPA.......

What about your company? Will you fight your company if they try to limit your career?


What about your gov't? Will you fight your gov't if they try to limit your career?


Of the three, Company, union and gov't. Which one tries to limit your career the least?

Shouldn't you be trying to fight the one that tries to limit your career the most?

Actually ALPA tries to limit it the most......so according you I should fight ALPA....Who wants to limit the size of my aircraft? Who wants to limit the number of aircraft I fly? Who wants to limit the stage length of the aircraft I fly? It isn't the govt.....it isn't my company.....it is my union......