SkyWest=Forrest Gump

[Nevets]

Its one thing to educate and inform, and another to insult and belittle. Even people who support the drive get tired of the attitude. I'm sure the drive a couple of years ago would have succeeded had it not been for the patronizing attitude of a couple of the organizers. As it was, it came damm close. But to paraphrase, it was the messenger, stupid!

Point taken. I'll take it under advisement and consider your comments. Let me just say that my point is not to insult and battle and there is no conscious effort of a "patronizing attitude" on my part. It is sometimes hard to convey sincerity in the written word for myself who is not a professional writer.

Again, just trying to point out the "irony" in a statement that might have not been caught by everyone - educating and informing, if you may.

 

[Nevets]

duplicate post

 

[XPOO]

The situation, when broken down, is really not at all what you are trying to make it sound like. SkyWest management sued Delta to protect it's contractual rights to collect money owed to the only airline SkyWest owns that has a workforce that also has a contract with the management. Almost all of that $25M was owed to ASA. Now isn't that ironic? Don't you think?

 

[JoeMerchant]

The situation, when broken down, is really not at all what you are trying to make it sound like. SkyWest management sued Delta to protect it's contractual rights to collect money owed to the only airline SkyWest owns that has a workforce that also has a contract with the management. Almost all of that $25M was owed to ASA. Now isn't that ironic? Don't you think?

Even more ironic is the fact that Jerry's contract with Delta provides more job security for ASA pilots than the ASA ALPA agreement does.....Jerry was able to accomplish something ALPA couldn't....job security...

 

[sweptback]

Even more ironic is the fact that Jerry's contract with Delta provides more job security for ASA pilots than the ASA ALPA agreement does.....Jerry was able to accomplish something ALPA couldn't....job security...

Then tell me why that ASA has been below the magical 80% number for awhile? It's just going to get worse, too, as all the Pinnacle CR9s come into town.

Also, how do ASA pilots seek remedy under that clause of the DCI agreement that Jerry negotiated, which by the way is secret?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Then tell me why that ASA has been below the magical 80% number for awhile? It's just going to get worse, too, as all the Pinnacle CR9s come into town.

Also, how do ASA pilots seek remedy under that clause of the DCI agreement that Jerry negotiated, which by the way is secret?

I think Jerry's deal with DAL is keeping us in the ballgame....Had it not been for that deal I believe we would be going down the same road CMR is....

Tell me what job protections are afforded us in the ALPA contract regarding DCI flying? I believe the Skywest Inc agreement provides more protection....

What is our current percentage?

 

[Nevets]

The situation, when broken down, is really not at all what you are trying to make it sound like. SkyWest management sued Delta to protect it's contractual rights to collect money owed to the only airline SkyWest owns that has a workforce that also has a contract with the management. Almost all of that $25M was owed to ASA. Now isn't that ironic? Don't you think?

So you are saying that having contractual rights works for unionized pilot groups as well.

 

[WalterSobchak]

So you are saying that having contractual rights works for unionized pilot groups as well.

I can't speak for XPOO, but...

I don't think any of us (SKW DXers with no dog in the fight beyond whatever affect it may have on the company as a whole) think we have any idea whether or not it works or it doesn't. I don't personally feel it is my place to have any real opinion on issues my workgroup doesn't deal with.

However, we do know what has worked, overall, fairly well for 36 years. As far as I can tell, SkyWest pilots haven't been bent over the way so many union pilots have been over the course of the last 36 years (note that I didn't say they haven't been bent over at all). Based strictly on what I read, unionized groups get jerked around just about as much as the SkyWest guys do. My personal opinion is that the SkyWest guys probably see that few things are different between the struggles of pilot groups at union carriers and themselves...so why muddy the waters when things are alright. Right or wrong, depending on your opinion, it works for them.

Someone the other day said, "JA keeps things just OK enough to keep a union off the property". Are things that much stellar at the union carriers? I think ALPA has done a pretty piss-poor job of at least making things seem "just OK enough" to entice a group with fewer major gripes with management want to join up.

Rez has brought up that non-ALPA pilots take and never give...so, here's a novel idea. Maybe this is already an option...or maybe there are some kind of legal ramifications of this idea...but, how about opening up payroll deduct donations to the ALPA PAC to non-ALPA pilots. Then, the pilots that feel that ALPA could make a difference for them on the political stage could donate and feel they are helping make a difference even if they their overall group does not feel the need to organize under ALPA. I think we can all agree that this is where ALPA has been good for the industry...and this would allow even more funding from those who, though they may not feel the need to have ALPA as their collective bargaining representative between the pilot group and management, but feel that ALPA shines in the way they deal with the Feds and Congress.

I know Rez will be here any minute to blast me for this idea...but it's at least a compromise that could help ALPA succeed where, in the case of the SkyWest pilots who have rejected ALPA as their representative with management, they are needed most.

 

[sweptback]

What is our current percentage?

We are currently about 78-79%. Close, but not quite 80. With the loss of the ATRs and the increase in the Pinnacle flying out of ATL, expect that percentage to be reduced unless something major happens.

Oh, and I agree with you that Jerry got a great deal with Delta. I'm just saying that the ASA pilots were not a party to the deal. Jerry is the one protected, not the ASA pilots. We just happen to be along for the ride.

 

[Nevets]

I can't speak for XPOO, but...

I don't think any of us (SKW DXers with no dog in the fight beyond whatever affect it may have on the company as a whole) think we have any idea whether or not it works or it doesn't. I don't personally feel it is my place to have any real opinion on issues my workgroup doesn't deal with.

However, we do know what has worked, overall, fairly well for 36 years. As far as I can tell, SkyWest pilots haven't been bent over the way so many union pilots have been over the course of the last 36 years (note that I didn't say they haven't been bent over at all). Based strictly on what I read, unionized groups get jerked around just about as much as the SkyWest guys do. My personal opinion is that the SkyWest guys probably see that few things are different between the struggles of pilot groups at union carriers and themselves...so why muddy the waters when things are alright. Right or wrong, depending on your opinion, it works for them.

Someone the other day said, "JA keeps things just OK enough to keep a union off the property". Are things that much stellar at the union carriers? I think ALPA has done a pretty piss-poor job of at least making things seem "just OK enough" to entice a group with fewer major gripes with management want to join up.

Rez has brought up that non-ALPA pilots take and never give...so, here's a novel idea. Maybe this is already an option...or maybe there are some kind of legal ramifications of this idea...but, how about opening up payroll deduct donations to the ALPA PAC to non-ALPA pilots. Then, the pilots that feel that ALPA could make a difference for them on the political stage could donate and feel they are helping make a difference even if they their overall group does not feel the need to organize under ALPA. I think we can all agree that this is where ALPA has been good for the industry...and this would allow even more funding from those who, though they may not feel the need to have ALPA as their collective bargaining representative between the pilot group and management, but feel that ALPA shines in the way they deal with the Feds and Congress.

I know Rez will be here any minute to blast me for this idea...but it's at least a compromise that could help ALPA succeed where, in the case of the SkyWest pilots who have rejected ALPA as their representative with management, they are needed most.

Yes, contracts between Skywest and their partner airlines have worked for 36 years. Its been proven by Skywest to work. I agree with you on that. Southwest is another airline that has been almost as successful as Skywest and they are thee most heavily unionized airline. It works for them as well.

Management labor relations are governed by how management views their labor groups, not by a union. If management takes a hostile position against a unionized labor group (like JO with MAG and most others) then they have no option than to protect their own interests in whatever way that leverage makes it possible for them. With Skywest management, I feel that they would have a good working relationship with its pilots if they unionized (much like XJT) seeing their history of them keeping things "just OK enough."

Things at other union carriers may not be "stellar" but just imagine how much worse it would be without ALPA defending the pilots against the likes of JO. Of course this isn't the case at Skywest but there are pilots that get "bent over," as you said yourself, who would benefit by having a union. Sometimes, with some of the management teams that ALPA has to deal with, its not so much about making things "just OK enough" but more of helping the pilots keep their heads above water.

As for your PAC idea, anybody can give. Just send your check to:

Air Line Pilots Association Political Action Committee
1625 Massachusetts Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20036

Here is some more contact info:

1-888-359-2572 ext. 4033
e-mail: [email protected]

Keep in mind that this money is used for lobbying and for donating to pro ALPA people running for federal elections. But dues money is also used for many things that benefit all airline pilots as well.

 

[JoeMerchant]

We are currently about 78-79%. Close, but not quite 80. With the loss of the ATRs and the increase in the Pinnacle flying out of ATL, expect that percentage to be reduced unless something major happens.

Oh, and I agree with you that Jerry got a great deal with Delta. I'm just saying that the ASA pilots were not a party to the deal. Jerry is the one protected, not the ASA pilots. We just happen to be along for the ride.

Indirectly it protects us more than our ALPA negotiated scope section....I'll take any job protection wherever I can get it....Jerry is a very good businessman and it would behoove us to work with him for job protection.....I would love to have some ALPA scope protection for the DCI flying...but I don't see that happening.....

As far as "just being along for the ride"...you can say that for all ALPA regionals....

 

[XPOO]

At the same time, Joe, ASA needs to be more proactive with improving their performance and customer satisfaction. Those two things will be the ingredients needed in order for Uncle Jerry to keep getting us those long-term contracts with guaranteed flying.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Its one thing to educate and inform, and another to insult and belittle. Even people who support the drive get tired of the attitude. I'm sure the drive a couple of years ago would have succeeded had it not been for the patronizing attitude of a couple of the organizers. As it was, it came damm close. But to paraphrase, it was the messenger, stupid!

Amazing! Are we emotionaly tied to the delivery... foresaking the message??

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Some people like to drive an arguement to the point of absurdity(sp) What investor, CEO, etc., has ever said to himself: Yeah, I can make money with this idea, but I won't commit until all my potential employees have avail themselves of the protection of a union.

Herb Kelleher

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Even more ironic is the fact that Jerry's contract with Delta provides more job security for ASA pilots than the ASA ALPA agreement does.....Jerry was able to accomplish something ALPA couldn't....job security...

Perhaps its due to the fact of who has control.

One of your many flaws Joe is you expect ALPA to have more control than it does... at the same time and ironically you work to sabatoge ALPA.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

As for your PAC idea, anybody can give. Just send your check to:

Air Line Pilots Association Political Action Committee
1625 Massachusetts Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20036

Here is some more contact info:

1-888-359-2572 ext. 4033
e-mail: [email protected]

Keep in mind that this money is used for lobbying and for donating to pro ALPA people running for federal elections. But dues money is also used for many things that benefit all airline pilots as well.

Unfortunatley not. Guys like PCL128 who left an ALPA carrier wants to give to ALPA-PAC as he did. However, federal law, not ALPA policy only allows active members of an association to donate to PACs.

There are efforts to change this....


However if the OO pilots want to get involved, then why not create a industry committee? OO pilots should be pulling thier own weight and join ALPA, but until then perhaps they should come up with creative ways to defend the profession.

Is MAG/JO less of a threat to SKYW pilots because ALPA is fighting his efforts to degrade the profession?

JO got Aloha. When the CRJ wars heat up this summer, and JO looks for survival and sees undercutting the OO pilots... and a viable target...

Possible..... probable?

 

[JoeMerchant]

At the same time, Joe, ASA needs to be more proactive with improving their performance and customer satisfaction. Those two things will be the ingredients needed in order for Uncle Jerry to keep getting us those long-term contracts with guaranteed flying.

I agree...and we are working on it.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Perhaps its due to the fact of who has control.

One of your many flaws Joe is you expect ALPA to have more control than it does... at the same time and ironically you work to sabatoge ALPA.

ALPA could have more control if it wanted to.....It could promote transportability of seniority/longevity...In fact it looks like it is starting to do that....

It could also do more to limit entry requirements....Other trade groups/associations/unions do a better job of this...

We will never be successful if we have to compete with one another and allow anyone to enter after a few months at a puppy farm....

The status quo isn't working......

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

ALPA could have more control if it wanted to.....It could promote transportability of seniority/longevity...In fact it looks like it is starting to do that....

will you help?

It could also do more to limit entry requirements....Other trade groups/associations/unions do a better job of this...

there are at times, lessons from others. but how is this accomplished? and will you help?

We will never be successful if we have to compete with one another and allow anyone to enter after a few months at a puppy farm....

The status quo isn't working......

Joe, I really hate to tell you this, but our gov't and economic model is based on recycling labor, for centuries. This isn't an ALPA problem.

It is a voter problem.

 

[Nevets]

ALPA could have more control if it wanted to.....It could promote transportability of seniority/longevity...In fact it looks like it is starting to do that....

I'm glad you changed your "more of the same" tune on this. Now will you help out when it gets to an airline near you?