SkyWest=Forrest Gump

[Nevets]

$1 B in bank sounds like job security. Not having money in the bank certainly did not do anything but lead to BK at many other airlines.

The difference is that Skywest is in a position to have both - job security (union) AND liquidity (money in the bank).

 

[Nevets]

From Business school. "Unions are the result of bad managment" Toyota certainly understands this as they as continued to grow to dominate the US marketplace.

Southwest Airlines is the most heavily unionized airline. They seem to be almost as successful as Skywest.

 

[Nevets]

I think its Ironic that you use the word Irony where it doesnt fit the definition. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/irony

Its ok, even Alanis Morrisette didnt get it right in her hit song: http://fgk.hanau.net/articles/ironic.html

Okay grammar cop. I defer to you. Please tell me what word I should have used to convey the fact that Skywest management wants to protect its own contractual rights yet are unsupported to pilots having their own contractual rights. Once I get your answer, I'll repost and correct my mistake. Thank you in advance for your response.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It cost RJDC far less than it cost ALPA....How much did it cost ALPA?

I have no idea. Should I? That is a JJ type question. Still... How much did it cost the RJDC?

A real pilot? ALPA's version is a "mainline" pilot.....if you aren't a mainline pilot you don't have a right to your job according to ALPA....

Wrong .....again!

If you are not a mainline pilot then you only have rights to your job via your CBA and your companies ASA.

You certainly don't have any rights to any or all portions of a mainline pilots job. Or do you?

I don't really care what has changed at ALPA

Well if you don't care, then why should anyone care about you?

....I don't think anything has changed there....I think we fought off any attempt to force a jetsforjobs screwjob down our throat....ALPA hasn't changed.....

So.. the change in the manual was insignificant to you. Of course.. cause this was really about you and your personal gain. The Classic mantra.. "What's in it for me!"

The dollar cost was high for ALPA...most of the RJDC work was done by volunteer pilots who had previous ALPA experience.....the cost was far higher of ALPA who had to pay lawyers to do the work.....

Of course you are proud to have put that financial burden on ALPA. In stead of ALPA lawyers fighting gov't or companies they had to battle tools like you.

That is exactly what we have now....We are a loose association of independent contractors all looking out for our own best interests.....I am looking out for my best interest....you sure as heck aren't going to look out for my best interest......

Correct on the structure. We need to get all the MEC's on the same page.

Actually, I am all for looking out for your interest. And mine as well... that is my intent when I volounteer union work. See Joe, the difference is.. you are a self serving tool. You did union work for you and when you couldn't serve your intrests you backed up your toys and left... and came back with a lawsuit...

Should my union exercise a bit of ethics when it negotiates against my interests? Do you think it was all right for Rick Dubinsky or Cress Bernard to sue ALPA? Cress sued for DFR and then voted against the ASA/CMR PID....talk about hypocricy....

There is no ethics in your precious ALPA.......

But you have ethics. You can't control others Joe... but you can control you. How are your ethics?

Actually ALPA tries to limit it the most......so according you I should fight ALPA....Who wants to limit the size of my aircraft? Who wants to limit the number of aircraft I fly? Who wants to limit the stage length of the aircraft I fly? It isn't the govt.....it isn't my company.....it is my union......

You sound like a indepedent FedEx truck driver!!

And if you want these limits changed to your benefit... how does that happen. Where does the "slice of the pie" come from? (I bet you'll dodge this answer)

 

[Morning Wood]

Many of us don't get to pick who our management team are. But you can have the best of both worlds and work for JA with ALPA.

Most don't. United's pilots hand-picked Jim Goodwin and then ran him out of town.

 

[Purple Member]

Just an observation...

I've worked for SkyWest for a long time . I've been a lurker here for a long time. I feel secure and happy working here. I read everything here writen by ASA pilots and I talk to SKYW pilots everyday. Do you ASA guys realize how immature and out of this world you guys really sound? Do you realize how imortant it is to work for a company that makes it possible to go to sleep at night knowing your wife and daughter have a home and life to look forward to, all because you work for a great company? Yes, we all would like a raise, we deserve a damn raise...but in the end..we all need a place to know we're all gonna have a job tomorrow, no?

 

[Skywest Pylot]

Purple Member,
I agree that SkyWest has a brilliant management team BUT if I were you I would be a little nervous considering the number of thirsty 200s you've got on the balance sheet. Another round of bankruptcy may not be so SkyWest friendly. I still don't understand why SkyWest hasn't pursued a large turbo prop (Q400). Sweet dreams!

 

[homerjdispatch]

Okay grammar cop. I defer to you. Please tell me what word I should have used to convey the fact that Skywest management wants to protect its own contractual rights yet are unsupported to pilots having their own contractual rights. Once I get your answer, I'll repost and correct my mistake. Thank you in advance for your response.

Smart Business!

 

[XPOO]

The fact the Morrisette's song Ironic is actually about coincidences and not irony is in fact what makes the song ironic.

 

[homerjdispatch]

The fact the Morrisette's song Ironic is actually about coincidences and not irony is in fact what makes the song ironic.

True, but how many people would sing along with, "isnt it coincidence, dont ya think" ?


Wait, Thats the word there for ya, NEVETS; Coincidence!!!!

 

[Ben Dover]

I still don't understand why SkyWest hasn't pursued a large turbo prop (Q400). Sweet dreams!

I think parking is an issue in some places like SLC. I've also heard concerns about MX.

 

[Nevets]

Smart Business!

I agree whole heartedly. It would be good business for the Skywest pilots to secure their own contractual rights. Don't you think?

 

[Nevets]

True, but how many people would sing along with, "isnt it coincidence, dont ya think" ?


Wait, Thats the word there for ya, NEVETS; Coincidence!!!!

Good business and coincidence is what you came up with.

Okay, I'll replace the word "irony" and put those words in instead. Here we go.

Did anyone else find the "good business" in this line?

Did anyone else find the "coincidence" in this line?

'When the companies failed to settle the issue informally, SkyWest said it had to seek legal remedies "to protect our contractual rights under our agreements."'

Does that work for you now? It doesn't convey the message that Skywest management sees it fit for themselves to protect contractual rights yet are unsupportive of its pilots having their own contractual rights. You and everyone else who read that knew exactly what I was saying regardless of whether irony was the correct word. You simply didn't like what I was saying for some reason. I'll stick with my original message. Thanks anyways.

 

[pilotyip]

yet are unsupportive of its pilots having their own contractual rights. Thanks anyways.

But what if the pilot don't want a contractual obligation? Which it seems they do not want, much like the employees at Toyota.

 

[Nevets]

But what if the pilot don't want a contractual obligation? Which it seems they do not want, much like the employees at Toyota.

Yeah, it makes some wonder why the CEO has his own contract with his own contractual rights but most pilots don't want what he has. Lets face it, this is a world of contracts. CEOs have them as well as companies doing business with each other like Skywest and Delta. This law suit that Skywest has filed against Delta is the whole point to having a contract to begin with. Sometimes there are disagreements in the course of doing business that requires an independent third party to sort them out. Nothing personal. Yet Skywest management does not see it fit to support its own pilots to have those rights.

 

[SSDD]

"Yet Skywest management does not see it fit to support its own pilots to have those rights."

Some people like to drive an arguement to the point of absurdity(sp) What investor, CEO, etc., has ever said to himself: Yeah, I can make money with this idea, but I won't commit until all my potential employees have avail themselves of the protection of a union.

Come on guy, that horse has left the barn. ALPA is not likely to try again for many years.

 

[Nevets]

"Yet Skywest management does not see it fit to support its own pilots to have those rights."

Some people like to drive an arguement to the point of absurdity(sp) What investor, CEO, etc., has ever said to himself: Yeah, I can make money with this idea, but I won't commit until all my potential employees have avail themselves of the protection of a union.

Come on guy, that horse has left the barn. ALPA is not likely to try again for many years.

You make a good point. The CEO is not going to do that. Because his first fiduciary responsibility is to the stockholders, NOT the employees. And that is okay. Someone has to look out for the best interest of just the stockholders. An airline couldn't run successfully without such a person and JA does an outstanding job at it too. But someone also should be looking out for the best interest of the pilots who has no conflict of interest.

Organizing is an ongoing task. It may be another five years before the next drive but its never too early to continue spreading the good word. Also, many people from many different carriers other than Skywest read these forums. The audience is much more vast than you think.

 

[pilotyip]

Yet Skywest management does not see it fit to support its own pilots to have those rights.

It appears they are happy without those rights just the Toyota employees who rejected the UAW.

 

[SSDD]

Its one thing to educate and inform, and another to insult and belittle. Even people who support the drive get tired of the attitude. I'm sure the drive a couple of years ago would have succeeded had it not been for the patronizing attitude of a couple of the organizers. As it was, it came damm close. But to paraphrase, it was the messenger, stupid!

 

[Nevets]

It appears they are happy without those rights just the Toyota employees who rejected the UAW.

I'm just saying. If its good enough for the CEO and the company as a whole, then why isn't it good enough for the pilots?

 

[Nevets]

Its one thing to educate and inform, and another to insult and belittle. Even people who support the drive get tired of the attitude. I'm sure the drive a couple of years ago would have succeeded had it not been for the patronizing attitude of a couple of the organizers. As it was, it came damm close. But to paraphrase, it was the messenger, stupid!

Point taken. I'll take it under advisement and consider your comments. Let me just say that my point is not to insult and battle and there is no conscious effort of a "patronizing attitude" on my part. It is sometimes hard to convey sincerity in the written word for myself who is not a professional writer.

Again, just trying to point out the "irony" in a statement that might have not been caught by everyone - educating and informing, if you may.

 

[Nevets]

duplicate post

 

[XPOO]

The situation, when broken down, is really not at all what you are trying to make it sound like. SkyWest management sued Delta to protect it's contractual rights to collect money owed to the only airline SkyWest owns that has a workforce that also has a contract with the management. Almost all of that $25M was owed to ASA. Now isn't that ironic? Don't you think?

 

[JoeMerchant]

The situation, when broken down, is really not at all what you are trying to make it sound like. SkyWest management sued Delta to protect it's contractual rights to collect money owed to the only airline SkyWest owns that has a workforce that also has a contract with the management. Almost all of that $25M was owed to ASA. Now isn't that ironic? Don't you think?

Even more ironic is the fact that Jerry's contract with Delta provides more job security for ASA pilots than the ASA ALPA agreement does.....Jerry was able to accomplish something ALPA couldn't....job security...

 

[sweptback]

Even more ironic is the fact that Jerry's contract with Delta provides more job security for ASA pilots than the ASA ALPA agreement does.....Jerry was able to accomplish something ALPA couldn't....job security...

Then tell me why that ASA has been below the magical 80% number for awhile? It's just going to get worse, too, as all the Pinnacle CR9s come into town.

Also, how do ASA pilots seek remedy under that clause of the DCI agreement that Jerry negotiated, which by the way is secret?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Then tell me why that ASA has been below the magical 80% number for awhile? It's just going to get worse, too, as all the Pinnacle CR9s come into town.

Also, how do ASA pilots seek remedy under that clause of the DCI agreement that Jerry negotiated, which by the way is secret?

I think Jerry's deal with DAL is keeping us in the ballgame....Had it not been for that deal I believe we would be going down the same road CMR is....

Tell me what job protections are afforded us in the ALPA contract regarding DCI flying? I believe the Skywest Inc agreement provides more protection....

What is our current percentage?

 

[Nevets]

The situation, when broken down, is really not at all what you are trying to make it sound like. SkyWest management sued Delta to protect it's contractual rights to collect money owed to the only airline SkyWest owns that has a workforce that also has a contract with the management. Almost all of that $25M was owed to ASA. Now isn't that ironic? Don't you think?

So you are saying that having contractual rights works for unionized pilot groups as well.

 

[WalterSobchak]

So you are saying that having contractual rights works for unionized pilot groups as well.

I can't speak for XPOO, but...

I don't think any of us (SKW DXers with no dog in the fight beyond whatever affect it may have on the company as a whole) think we have any idea whether or not it works or it doesn't. I don't personally feel it is my place to have any real opinion on issues my workgroup doesn't deal with.

However, we do know what has worked, overall, fairly well for 36 years. As far as I can tell, SkyWest pilots haven't been bent over the way so many union pilots have been over the course of the last 36 years (note that I didn't say they haven't been bent over at all). Based strictly on what I read, unionized groups get jerked around just about as much as the SkyWest guys do. My personal opinion is that the SkyWest guys probably see that few things are different between the struggles of pilot groups at union carriers and themselves...so why muddy the waters when things are alright. Right or wrong, depending on your opinion, it works for them.

Someone the other day said, "JA keeps things just OK enough to keep a union off the property". Are things that much stellar at the union carriers? I think ALPA has done a pretty piss-poor job of at least making things seem "just OK enough" to entice a group with fewer major gripes with management want to join up.

Rez has brought up that non-ALPA pilots take and never give...so, here's a novel idea. Maybe this is already an option...or maybe there are some kind of legal ramifications of this idea...but, how about opening up payroll deduct donations to the ALPA PAC to non-ALPA pilots. Then, the pilots that feel that ALPA could make a difference for them on the political stage could donate and feel they are helping make a difference even if they their overall group does not feel the need to organize under ALPA. I think we can all agree that this is where ALPA has been good for the industry...and this would allow even more funding from those who, though they may not feel the need to have ALPA as their collective bargaining representative between the pilot group and management, but feel that ALPA shines in the way they deal with the Feds and Congress.

I know Rez will be here any minute to blast me for this idea...but it's at least a compromise that could help ALPA succeed where, in the case of the SkyWest pilots who have rejected ALPA as their representative with management, they are needed most.

 

[sweptback]

What is our current percentage?

We are currently about 78-79%. Close, but not quite 80. With the loss of the ATRs and the increase in the Pinnacle flying out of ATL, expect that percentage to be reduced unless something major happens.

Oh, and I agree with you that Jerry got a great deal with Delta. I'm just saying that the ASA pilots were not a party to the deal. Jerry is the one protected, not the ASA pilots. We just happen to be along for the ride.

 

[Nevets]

I can't speak for XPOO, but...

I don't think any of us (SKW DXers with no dog in the fight beyond whatever affect it may have on the company as a whole) think we have any idea whether or not it works or it doesn't. I don't personally feel it is my place to have any real opinion on issues my workgroup doesn't deal with.

However, we do know what has worked, overall, fairly well for 36 years. As far as I can tell, SkyWest pilots haven't been bent over the way so many union pilots have been over the course of the last 36 years (note that I didn't say they haven't been bent over at all). Based strictly on what I read, unionized groups get jerked around just about as much as the SkyWest guys do. My personal opinion is that the SkyWest guys probably see that few things are different between the struggles of pilot groups at union carriers and themselves...so why muddy the waters when things are alright. Right or wrong, depending on your opinion, it works for them.

Someone the other day said, "JA keeps things just OK enough to keep a union off the property". Are things that much stellar at the union carriers? I think ALPA has done a pretty piss-poor job of at least making things seem "just OK enough" to entice a group with fewer major gripes with management want to join up.

Rez has brought up that non-ALPA pilots take and never give...so, here's a novel idea. Maybe this is already an option...or maybe there are some kind of legal ramifications of this idea...but, how about opening up payroll deduct donations to the ALPA PAC to non-ALPA pilots. Then, the pilots that feel that ALPA could make a difference for them on the political stage could donate and feel they are helping make a difference even if they their overall group does not feel the need to organize under ALPA. I think we can all agree that this is where ALPA has been good for the industry...and this would allow even more funding from those who, though they may not feel the need to have ALPA as their collective bargaining representative between the pilot group and management, but feel that ALPA shines in the way they deal with the Feds and Congress.

I know Rez will be here any minute to blast me for this idea...but it's at least a compromise that could help ALPA succeed where, in the case of the SkyWest pilots who have rejected ALPA as their representative with management, they are needed most.

Yes, contracts between Skywest and their partner airlines have worked for 36 years. Its been proven by Skywest to work. I agree with you on that. Southwest is another airline that has been almost as successful as Skywest and they are thee most heavily unionized airline. It works for them as well.

Management labor relations are governed by how management views their labor groups, not by a union. If management takes a hostile position against a unionized labor group (like JO with MAG and most others) then they have no option than to protect their own interests in whatever way that leverage makes it possible for them. With Skywest management, I feel that they would have a good working relationship with its pilots if they unionized (much like XJT) seeing their history of them keeping things "just OK enough."

Things at other union carriers may not be "stellar" but just imagine how much worse it would be without ALPA defending the pilots against the likes of JO. Of course this isn't the case at Skywest but there are pilots that get "bent over," as you said yourself, who would benefit by having a union. Sometimes, with some of the management teams that ALPA has to deal with, its not so much about making things "just OK enough" but more of helping the pilots keep their heads above water.

As for your PAC idea, anybody can give. Just send your check to:

Air Line Pilots Association Political Action Committee
1625 Massachusetts Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20036

Here is some more contact info:

1-888-359-2572 ext. 4033
e-mail: [email protected]

Keep in mind that this money is used for lobbying and for donating to pro ALPA people running for federal elections. But dues money is also used for many things that benefit all airline pilots as well.