Skybus Toast

[CA1900]

Most pilots don't even know who GIA is. When I tell Captains I fly with that I worked there, the typical response is "who's that?"

And when I call my company up after they book me a ticket on "Continental" operated by Gulfstream, and explain who they are, they immediately cancel the ticket and book me on somebody else.

 

[PCL_128]

And when I call my company up after they book me a ticket on "Continental" operated by Gulfstream, and explain who they are, they immediately cancel the ticket and book me on somebody else.

Um, good for you I guess? What's your point? Maybe you should look at GIA's safety record. Perfect.

 

[Fly2Scuba]

Not really.....

[/i]

But wait...Isn't Southwest PFT also?? Does that mean they lowered the bar.....
People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. CMR,ASA,ACA,CAL Express (I'm sure there are many more) were all PFT. Shouldn't you people be crucifing them as well??

737

If some carrier started up tomorrow offering 737 positions requiring a payment of 60 grand for training, would you consider that the same as Southwest Airlines $7500 737 type rating to fly 60 grand first year wage? This is not a black and white issue. If it is to you, then I guess you wouldn't have a problem with someone paying to fly your present aircraft at any cost. This a different era also; PFT is thankfully the rare exception and let's keep it that way.

 

[737 Pylt]

If some carrier started up tomorrow offering 737 positions requiring a payment of 60 grand for training, would you consider that the same as Southwest Airlines $7500 737 type rating to fly 60 grand first year wage?

PFT is PFT! It doesn't matter what I think. When I got hired at DAL, they gave me my type ratings when I upgraded to specific airplanes. I didn't have to have them to get here. Its how you look at the issue.

This is not a black and white issue.

UM, yes it is!

If it is to you, then I guess you wouldn't have a problem with someone paying to fly your present aircraft at any cost.

You're contradicting yourself there....As a matter of fact, there was a big issue here several years for just what you're describing, and I'm not going to start to rehash it....Do a search on the rjdc, you'll see what I mean!

This a different era also; PFT is thankfully the rare exception and let's keep it that way.

This may be a different era, but its not really different as long as there are people willing to do it!

737

 

[30West]

SWA requires a type rating. They don't care if you get one yourself or come from an airline where you already have it.
You don't write SWA a check for your ground school and sim time before you show up to class.

I do think there's a difference in that you drop $7500.00 that will get you hired at a company that's going to give you that money back with interest through decent pay and QOL vs. $12,000.00 to go to ground school and sim to make Wal Mart wages and get treated like someone's sack.

A type rating stays with YOU. PFT money pays for executive bonuses.

 

[Lear70]

Once again, you have no idea what you're talking about. At United alone, the monthly retirement rate's gone from ~30/month to 2-3 month.
If you consider 2-3 'many,' fine. In the dictionary, 2-3 is best defined as 'few.' Even 'several' is an incorrect description.

OK, that's United. What about airTran? 5-10 a month before age 65, now 5-10 anyway. Same with JB, and the numbers at CAL are pretty steady on attrition as well.

I'm not saying it didn't impact people, but you're being WAY over-dramatic about age 65's true impact, as stated below:

You are unable to grasp the simple concept that the lack of retirements is resulting in many on the bottom end taking any job that they can find.

No, the economy is doing that. Airlines would have shut down the hiring pipeline REGARDLESS of age 65 with $100+ a brl oil.

That's a fact.

As the furloughs pick up steam, a lot of those furloughees are going to end up finding a job anywhere. It won't matter that the companies are paying less than Skybus wages.

So, instead of retirements at age 60, we're going to see the bottom of the losing their jobs and going to work anywhere that they can find a job. What will be the effect industrywide? More wage cuts.

That's a huge jump in logic without a common bridge.

Furloughees will need a job, but they aren't being furloughed due to age 65, they're being furloughed because of $100+ a brl oil and airlines reducing ASM's.

Certainly SOME furloughs will occur because SOME age 60+ pilots will remain, but the BULK of the furloughs have nothing to do with age 65.

Don't try to tie the two together to justify your position on age 60. I understand it, and sympathize for the people who will be negatively impacted by it, but it's not the cause of the downturn we're beginning to suffer, nor is it the root evil of pilots accepting sub-par wages.

Your inability to apply the laws of supply and demand to this business never ceases to amaze me.

Likewise. Your leaps of "logic" have no basis in fact.

Now, care to share your dad's story? Guys like him are a BIG part of the problem. The difference between his behavior and the guy on the bottom of the list going to work at Skybus is, well, he wasn't at the bottom of the list.

Ummm... don't know why you're so insistent at dragging this down to gutter level mud-slinging, but I've never told anyone "my dad's story". I've simply stated that he, like many others, had his retirement gutted by a corrupt management system and bankruptcy judges who bought into the lies while corporate raiders lined their pockets, and I understand their plight of planning on pensions that were there for decades, then suddenly aren't, and supporting them flying until they can pocket enough to bridge them over to medicare and full Social Security benefits.

Here's a news flash for you: he's not going to benefit with age 65. He doesn't get to go back to work at US Airways, doesn't get any benefit from age 65 whatsoever. He's flying small corporate planes locally.

Where you got the idea that he was personally fighting for age 65 so that he could screw people over is beyond me, and accusing my dad of "being a BIG part of the problem" when he was never involved in changing age 65 and won't be benefiting from it is petty at best, outright stupidity at worst.

You might check your facts next time.

 

[bravodude]

You fought? Personally? What position did you hold in the MEC? Which pilots did you organize? When were you at the table in negotiations? What papers did you personally publish to educate and solidify your group? "Almost" went on strike? Is that like "almost" getting a good contract?

Yes, you were. You were very direct about it, don't try to equivocate it now...

Yep. Same as you went to Piedmont. Although I'd argue in saying they're two different animals altogether.

Point is, you don't have any business casting stones when your foundation is made of glass.

Are you smoking crack?

airTran is the same as Skybus? With pay rates and work rules DOUBLE that of Skybus? I'm not saying airTran rates don't need to come up, but you're smoking some serious herbs to put them on the same playing field.

Not to mention the whole "scab" stone-throwing, when almost every Legacy out there has them. You spew that kind of bullsh*t about CAL, too? I hate scabs, but every carrier has them. According to you, though, no one should go to a carrier that has them, so I expect you to NEVER apply to ANY carrier or company that has ever employed a scab.

Kind of hard to take you seriously when you spout nonsense like that. Try again.

I was on the NC stuck at ALPA national in seperate rooms and allowed to communicate with the NC of PSA and ALG on the phone even though we were in the same building. Is that specific enough for you? PDT had to call in the police to show up at EWN and take our ID badge when we showed for work, how about that? what did you do?
Yes skybus is the same as AT. People went to skybus to make them a better place to work just like you went to AT to make them a better place.

By the way SWA does not have any scabs so you dont have to worry about me since I already work there.

All I was saying was to have some compation for the pilots. You want to take it as something else be my guest. Keep laughing at the demise of people's jobs, what goes around comes around!

 

[Andy]

Lear, where are you getting your retirement numbers? I'm not buying your AAI and JBLU numbers. I've seen CAL posts indicating that retirements have decreased significantly - there are even over 60 sim instructors returning to the line! So your CAL retirement comments don't match up with what CAL pilots are reporting.
What are the percentages of over 60 retiring at each airline? At United it's running at around 10%. AMR had a spike due to the structure of their retirement payout, but I bet that they'll flatline once the stock price stabilizes. Over 60 pilots are returning to Southwest, getting priority in hiring. I'd bet that very few retirements are occurring at USAirways. I have yet to read, other than your post, that most pilots are retiring at 60.

You're taking my comments about your father way too personal. I pointed it out because that's the reason why you support age 65. ... you also conveniently forgot to mention his savings and investment strategy prior to retirement. And yes, you have told your dad's story, including his investments.

It'll be interesting to see the outrage from guys at the bottom of the seniority list toward 65 as they get furloughed. I've got the feeling that the law of unintended consequences will be in full force where the new furloughees will end up working for sub-Skybus wages and drag down the entire industry payscales.

 

[Jmoney]

Different Era!

PFT is PFT! It doesn't matter what I think. When I got hired at DAL, they gave me my type ratings when I upgraded to specific airplanes. I didn't have to have them to get here. Its how you look at the issue.


UM, yes it is!

You're contradicting yourself there....As a matter of fact, there was a big issue here several years for just what you're describing, and I'm not going to start to rehash it....Do a search on the rjdc, you'll see what I mean!


This may be a different era, but its not really different as long as there are people willing to do it!

737

Yep-
This may be a different era, but you are still the biggest toolbag around here, General!

-You are a pathetic fool!

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

The pilots are getting exactly what they deserve.

Go get some class little man......NEVER cheer another's demise.....

Your high and secure job on the SS Airtran may not be so stable here in iceberg country.....then again neither is mine.......glass houses, stones and whatnot

 

[Jimmy C. Corn]

Some Dubious Moments in Aviation History:

- Marshall Ferdinand Foch rejects out-of-hand the military application of aviation

- Closed wing airliner

- Unducted Turbofan

- The ornithopter

- Pilots turn their backs on their profession (and some even leave NJA) to become flight control manipulators and water monkeys at Skybus

 

[Lear70]

I was on the NC stuck at ALPA national in seperate rooms and allowed to communicate with the NC of PSA and ALG on the phone even though we were in the same building. Is that specific enough for you? PDT had to call in the police to show up at EWN and take our ID badge when we showed for work, how about that? what did you do?

Good for you, although the "calling of the police" is a little dramatic. The only time I've known that to happen is if someone is a security threat... or it's done to everyone because they have to be escorted out of the SIDA area once their badge is removed.

You know well what I've done for airTran, you commented on it when it first happened. If you don't remember, do a search. I'm a contract hostage who needed a job... and didn't even bother applying to Skybus.

Yes skybus is the same as AT. People went to skybus to make them a better place to work just like you went to AT to make them a better place.

OK. Keep smoking that crack. I believe you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone here to agree with you, just like they can't agree with you on your idea that any airline acquired or merged with Southwest would have to interview for their jobs or get kicked to the curb, but more on that later.

By the way SWA does not have any scabs so you dont have to worry about me since I already work there.

Yes, I know, and more than one of your coworkers has apologized for you and the weird stuff you've come out with on this board.

And as far as I know, Southwest used to have at least 2 scabs that I know of. Maybe they've retired by now...

All I was saying was to have some compation for the pilots. You want to take it as something else be my guest. Keep laughing at the demise of people's jobs, what goes around comes around!

The word is "compassion", and I've already remarked repeatedly about feeling sorry for the FAMILIES of those pilots.

But your words ring false, as your repeated statements on anyone merged or acquired by Southwest should have to re-interview for their job or get kicked to the curb. How do you reconcile the fact that you would celebrate someone losing their job because they had to re-interview for it with you not wanting to celebrate the demise of a carrier that had wages less than 1/2 that of the LOWEST paid Airbus operator?

Both pilots would lose jobs, yet you'd welcome one but not the other?

Google search "hypocrite" and get back to me...

 

[Lear70]

Lear, where are you getting your retirement numbers? I'm not buying your AAI and JBLU numbers.

AAI numbers are straight from the NPA and our seniority list on a monthly basis. JB numbers are from a good friend of mine who's helping organize the union drive. There's a couple AAI instructors who want to come back, but the contract doesn't allow for them to come back as CA's so none of them have... yet.

I've seen CAL posts indicating that retirements have decreased significantly - there are even over 60 sim instructors returning to the line! So your CAL retirement comments don't match up with what CAL pilots are reporting.

I've seen mentioning of those sim instructors, but I haven't seen anything that says ALL 60 are returning, just that they can and SOME of them are. The numbers I'm hearing and yours aren't matching up.

What are the percentages of over 60 retiring at each airline? At United it's running at around 10%. AMR had a spike due to the structure of their retirement payout, but I bet that they'll flatline once the stock price stabilizes. Over 60 pilots are returning to Southwest, getting priority in hiring. I'd bet that very few retirements are occurring at USAirways. I have yet to read, other than your post, that most pilots are retiring at 60.

I didn't say "most", I said "many". Most carriers that still have pensions have many pilots choosing to take their money and go home. The ones that don't are the ones that are staying.

Which is exactly what the bill was designed to do; allow them to continue working to shore up their retirement and continue earning money until their social security can be drawn with no penalty and they are able to draw on medicare.

Again, the age 60+ pilots are not the reason that furloughs will likely happen at some carriers. Sun Country is the only carrier I know of that has even started furloughing pilots and they do that every year anyway. When the furloughs start, get back to me and let me know how many that are DIRECTLY contributed to age 65.

You're taking my comments about your father way too personal. I pointed it out because that's the reason why you support age 65. ... you also conveniently forgot to mention his savings and investment strategy prior to retirement. And yes, you have told your dad's story, including his investments.

No, I haven't told the full story, just pieces of it. And you WERE being directly personal as an attack, and I quote:

Now, care to share your dad's story? Guys like him are a BIG part of the problem. The difference between his behavior and the guy on the bottom of the list going to work at Skybus is, well, he wasn't at the bottom of the list.

You attacked his "behavior", linked it to the same sort of people who would take a job at Skybus (even though he could have applied in the last several months since age 65 was signed and DIDN'T), and said that "guys like him are a BIG part of the problem".

If you don't think that's a personal attack, you need to re-assess your definition.

It'll be interesting to see the outrage from guys at the bottom of the seniority list toward 65 as they get furloughed. I've got the feeling that the law of unintended consequences will be in full force where the new furloughees will end up working for sub-Skybus wages and drag down the entire industry payscales.

Not going to happen, but the alarmist drama is quite amusing.

No one in their right mind would even ATTEMPT to start up a carrier with $100+ a brl oil and the economy in full recessionary mode.

I'm certain that there will be a few who are angry to be on the streets, look at the age 60+ guys and cry foul, and I'm not saying they don't have a right to be angry (I've been on the streets three times now, I know, it sucks). But that's the risk we take righting a wrong that never should have existed.

But then again, we've taken a thread that wasn't about age 65 and turned it into one. Every thread always devolves after page 10 to either a flaming war, an age 60 debate, a rant against ALPA, or a flame on Skybus/Mesa, or a combination of some or all of those things.

 

[BrokenWing]

OK, that's United. What about airTran? 5-10 a month before age 65, now 5-10 anyway. Same with JB, and the numbers at CAL are pretty steady on attrition as well.


You might check your facts next time.

AAI numbers are straight from the NPA and our seniority list on a monthly basis. JB numbers are from a good friend of mine who's helping organize the union drive.

Lear,

I will guarantee you that there are not 5-10 people a month retiring at JB. Your good freind is either wrong or........well let's just say he's wrong! You might want to check your facts next time.

 

[Lear70]

Lear,

I will guarantee you that there are not 5-10 people a month retiring at JB. Your good freind is either wrong or........well let's just say he's wrong! You might want to check your facts next time.

And how would I go about doing that?

That's the information I have. It comes directly from an employee at JB. I don't have a hotline to corporate up in NY,,,

I know JB hired a lot of younger guys who were furloughed, and that they're a young airline to begin with, which probably throws them out of the pot for discussion of retirements anyway...

 

[Gator1999]

Um, good for you I guess? What's your point? Maybe you should look at GIA's safety record. Perfect.

His point is that our company spends millions of dollars a year on airlining our crews around the country and GIA is on a small list of airlines that we don't trust with the safety of our crews.

 

[CA1900]

Exactly. And I have looked at GIA's safety record -- it's not "flawless," and I'm not impressed. While there haven't been any pilot-caused crashes (yet), there have been numerous maintenance incidents that don't exactly give me confidence in the operator. (The two involving elevator trim cables give me particular cause for concern. The nosegear collapse and the engine failure don't help either.)

 

[Jonny Sacko]

All I can say fellas is be EXTREMELY weary of the know it all, with ZERO experience.

 

[737 Pylt]

Yep-
This may be a different era, but you are still the biggest toolbag around here, General!

-You are a pathetic fool!

Slow night on myspace? Thanks for contributing!
Quick, now sign out and sign in as jimmy c. corn/jke406 or one of the countless other loser names you have doosh bag!

737

 

[Superpilot92]

I just want to clarify that i am nothing but a half arsed pilot that has been turned down by every major carrier that i have interviewed with because of my lack of aviating skills. Since i have been rejected so many times i feel i need to justify my lack of career advancement by coming on here and flaming everyone that has moved on. I admit that i am an embarrassment to all of my fellow XJT pilots and would like to apologize that I represent my pilot group the way that i do. Thanks for your understanding.

Wow i am proud of you Pocono for admitting your position. Thats the first step to recovery. Keep it up.