Skybus Toast

[BOYCAPTAIN]

Wow, somebody loves himself.LOL

this little face means "a joke"...kinda like your CAL interview. LOL LOL LOL

 

[get2flyin]

I sincerely respect your career path - you definitely didn't take any shortcuts. With that being said don't take the following comments as personal insult:

What's with the arrogance of some of the Riddle guys? They act as if it was a "most selective" university, requiring 1400+ SAT scores and 3.8+ GPAs. It wasn't at all an academically competitive school; that's one of the biggest reasons I didn't apply. I'm sure it had a great aviation department, but a lot of guys I encounter brag as if they went to Stanford or Harvard.

No offense taken. Being grouped with guys who wore sheepskin flight jackets and RayBans to class (ala Top Gun) sucks. They went to college to buy an image, not an education. It's embarrassing. I have captain buddies at Eagle who tell me stories about new hire FOs waving wallet sized diplomas around as if that gives them some sort of credibility.

Bottom line, it was a good education, not a cheap education. I suppose it's like being a lawyer and hearing other lawyers say, "well, back at Yale we learned blah, blah, blah". Put on your adult pants, you're not in college anymore. As far as your peers are concerned, you're only as good as your last landing. Nobody gives a crap were you went to college.

 

[Lear70]

this little face means "a joke"...kinda like your CAL interview. LOL LOL LOL

Oh, *SMACK*!

 

[flygirlqt]

Did you work without medical insurance for the first year at CAL?

No. Funny thing is, you wanted to.

Didn't Skybus new hires make more than CAL new hires?

Would you like to compare their pay now?

Yeah, that's what I thought. LOL

You thought wrong, again, as usual but that is typical.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hypocrite

Here is something to reference you.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/failure

All of us at FI are anxious to hear where you will fail at next by getting shot down during the interview process. :laugh:

Congrats on being the only female ever turned down by Continental airlines. Now that really says something. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

[flygirlqt]

Why is UND/ERAU not as bad as GA? What do these schools do that an FBO and a degree via community college and a local univeristy can't, except require cash payout... just like GA. But you tell me how you see it...........

Training education environment vs. whoring for a job. The whoring for the job is what really lowers the bar in this industry. It is not even in the same universe in comparing the two situations.

So its ok to judge Gulfstreamers cause they went there... but bad to judge your abilities to fly and get jobs based on your gender? got it....

I do not agree with the practice of minority hiring when said hiring is made in place of actual qualifications. I fail to understand how or on what basis you have even interjected that argument in this discussion.

Pot meet kettle...???

Met and we can agree that we are not alike.

He was harsh... and apologized. He also has said GA was a mistake. He was young and dumb... Like all of us....

I know you are losing ALPA allies quicker than Pocono gets turned down for jobs but this is one guy I would give a lot of distance to.

Have you done anything dumb when you were young? I have... he did... and he has the ability to admit it... Can you?

I got into aviation.

 

[gt1900]

Funny...the only thing I learned in college involvesd copious amounts of alcohol and hot freshman girls. So, yeah...maybe you're right about pilots needing a "college education".

Dude.... Did we go to the same school???? Pretty much sounds like my college education as well... I bet we had way more fun then UND/ERU grads and we ended up in the same spot as them... Not bashing them..... But COMON guys..... ITS COLLEGE.. Did none of you see Animal House.. Graduate with a 3.0, drink as much cheap beer as you can, and chase *&SSY.... Best time of my life....

 

[Fly2Scuba]

Training education environment vs. whoring for a job. The whoring for the job is what really lowers the bar in this industry. It is not even in the same universe in comparing the two situations.

Best statement yet on this thread. From Gulfstream's website:

http://www.gulfstreamacademy.com/First_officer.php

They actually pride themselves with the idea that you will be a professional airline pilot without having to go through the interview process. Would you want to be treated by doctors who bought their way into a medical clinic without having to interview? How how you think other doctors in the medical profession would view that?

Back to Skybus, I know of pilot who had a background at his previous carrier that included multiple suspensions for really pushing the limit and final termination after failing a drug test to get his job back. Good guy personality wise, but not safe.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Training education environment vs. whoring for a job. The whoring for the job is what really lowers the bar in this industry. It is not even in the same universe in comparing the two situations.

Problem is you haven't compared the two. I am open on this... so explain how going GA destroys the profession... really what we are talking about it is the economics of it...

How does it lower the bar... How do GA pilots take money out of your pocket?

Best statement yet on this thread. From Gulfstream's website:

http://www.gulfstreamacademy.com/First_officer.php

They actually pride themselves with the idea that you will be a professional airline pilot without having to go through the interview process. Would you want to be treated by doctors who bought their way into a medical clinic without having to interview? How how you think other doctors in the medical profession would view that?

Are they board certified?

So what do you say to GA pilots now working at jB, FX, UAL, CAL, AA, SWA... etc....

 

[Fly2Scuba]

Problem is you haven't compared the two. I am open on this... so explain how going GA destroys the profession... really what we are talking about it is the economics of it...

How does it lower the bar... How do GA pilots take money out of your pocket?





Are they board certified?

So what do you say to GA pilots now working at jB, FX, UAL, CAL, AA, SWA... etc....

I've already stated it in more ways than one, going to GA is low on the ethics scale. There are pilots at Continental that are scabs, got their job while others were on strike. That's about the worst way of furthering one's career; completely buying a job isn't as bad, but it's in that direction. The willingness to work at Skybus was also.

GA hasn't destroyed the profession, but yes they have helped lower wages to some degree. By lowering the pay to fly a 1900 to the point where you have to pay to fly it, the ability for any other airline to compete is severely hampered in that market and also for other 1900 pilots, especially at that extreme rate of $30,000! Now if a 1900 with 19 seats has low pay, the economics of an airline willing to bump up pay for say a 37 seat airplane are affected. And so on. Let's put it this way, GA has a negative effect on professional pilot's ability to achieve good wages. A gray issue because you can argue anytime an airline has lower wages, that their pilots are selling their souls. But there are extremes, and I just think GA is way excessive in price and it's excessive because you're buying a job without having to go through the challenge of an interview process. Which is especially dumbfounding over the last few years considering the number of regionals that have been hiring.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

However, if you look at GA as a training program and not a job.... granted GA right seat pilots are performing work... much like ab initio programs globally. And what of the new MPL? How are we going to treat those guys? (basically MPL will do for Airbus and Boeing operators what Gulfstream does for BE-1900's.... 300 hour pilots flying Airbus and Boeing... )

But take your example and compare it to the 1990's when pilots paid 10K to work at ACA, Express Jet, Pinnacle, etc... Are those guys scabish? And of course what about SWA?

 

[CA1900]

There's a big difference between GIA and other training programs: unsuspecting passengers are brought along for the ride, and they don't know that there's a student pilot in the cockpit when they buy the ticket.

When an apprentice cuts your hair or a high school auto shop fixes your car, you're fully aware, and you get a significant discount for the risk. With GIA, you buy a ticket on Continental and, unless you're in this industry, you have no idea that the copilots for this airline are paying customers.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

There's a big difference between GIA and other training programs: unsuspecting passengers are brought along for the ride, and they don't know that there's a student pilot in the cockpit when they buy the ticket.

A "student" fully qualified and approved by the FAA.

When an apprentice cuts your hair or a high school auto shop fixes your car, you're fully aware, and you get a significant discount for the risk. With GIA, you buy a ticket on Continental and, unless you're in this industry, you have no idea that the copilots for this airline are paying customers.

Not unlike the co-pilots during the golden age of the Airlines...

Not unlike interns in the ER.


Not unlike the MPL pilots we will see in the next few years: low time, young pilots with Shiney WideBody Jet Syndrome, willing to sit right seat in a Boeing for 25K a year....

The question is...how will we treat them? Will we treat them as second class B scale pilots, thus allowing management to play us against each other?

 

[rtmcfi]

However, if you look at GA as a training program and not a job.... granted GA right seat pilots are performing work... much like ab initio programs globally.

But take your example and compare it to the 1990's when pilots paid 10K to work at ACA, Express Jet, Pinnacle, etc... Are those guys scabish? And of course what about SWA?

Those "pilots" are paying to occupy a seat that they should be getting paid for. This allows GA a competitive advantage in the marketplace. This forces other airlines to lower their compensation to compete. This ultimately depresses pilot wages. You already knew all of this though.....

The difference between now and the 1990's is that there are other options now. I am not defending the practice of the 1990's, as there were other options even then. GA, and it's current PFT swine are particularly repugnant now, as there are so many other options.

 

[Fly2Scuba]

However, if you look at GA as a training program and not a job.... granted GA right seat pilots are performing work... much like ab initio programs globally. And what of the new MPL? How are we going to treat those guys? (basically MPL will do for Airbus and Boeing operators what Gulfstream does for BE-1900's.... 300 hour pilots flying Airbus and Boeing... )

But take your example and compare it to the 1990's when pilots paid 10K to work at ACA, Express Jet, Pinnacle, etc... Are those guys scabish? And of course what about SWA?

Gulfstream is not a training program. You must have a commercial pilot's license to start there so this is not the same as an ab initio program starting from scratch. Even if it were, if I'm not mistaken, pilots from other areas in the world do not pay 30 grand for such programs. There are plenty of airlines in recent times hiring at very low hours that you have to interview at, but you actually get paid, not pay into. So comparing recent times to the 1990s is not a good comparison at all. Those airlines that had pay for training still required passing an interview. You didn't just buy your job outright.

 

[PCL_128]

Those airlines that had pay for training still required passing an interview. You didn't just buy your job outright.

I don't know how it works at GIA now, but it used to be that you had to pass a simulator ride and a written test to get hired as a PFT FO at GIA. About a quarter of the applicants didn't make it to class. No different than an interview process.

 

[PCL_128]

There's a big difference between GIA and other training programs: unsuspecting passengers are brought along for the ride, and they don't know that there's a student pilot in the cockpit when they buy the ticket.

When an apprentice cuts your hair or a high school auto shop fixes your car, you're fully aware, and you get a significant discount for the risk. With GIA, you buy a ticket on Continental and, unless you're in this industry, you have no idea that the copilots for this airline are paying customers.

The PFT pilots at GIA aren't "student pilots." They have the same number of hours that many students at the RJ operators have nowadays. I used to fly with plenty of 250-500 hour pilots at PCL. No different than what GIA is getting. The GIA pilots have to pass 121 training just like any other pilot, the only difference is that they're paying for it instead of the airline.

 

[Fly2Scuba]

The question is...how will we treat them? Will we treat them as second class B scale pilots, thus allowing management to play us against each other?

There are always going to be completely selfish unethical real estate agents who will stop at nothing to achieve the highest pay check. Just like certain CEOs (Mesa CEO Jonathon Ornstein). I'm sure there will always be a few scumbags in this profession with the same absolute mentality as evidenced by the super scabs of the past who took a job away from someone on strike. The rest of us are human with at least some thought to others instead of taking extreme shortcuts. So the more shameful Skybus or Gulfstream is viewed, the less likely future pilots will be willing to make a similar step and the better off this profession.

 

[Fly2Scuba]

The PFT pilots at GIA aren't "student pilots." They have the same number of hours that many students at the RJ operators have nowadays. I used to fly with plenty of 250-500 hour pilots at PCL. No different than what GIA is getting. The GIA pilots have to pass 121 training just like any other pilot, the only difference is that they're paying for it instead of the airline.

Not the only difference; they are paying to pass an interview process. Interviewing which involves explaining your strengths and weaknesses is a very humbling experience. I think that is a huge distinction. At the excessive price of 30 grand (what the heck), that appears to be way out there in the ethical department.

 

[PCL_128]

Interviewing which involves explaining your strengths and weaknesses is a very humbling experience.

Not really. Does anyone truly give honest answers to those questions, anyway? It's all BS. Kit Darby makes a fortune by telling people how to BS their way through interviews.

At the excessive price of 30 grand (what the heck), that appears to be way out there in the ethical department.

Hey, I'm not arguing in favor of the 'stream, I'm just saying that throwing the pilots under the bus isn't a wise move. Thousands upon thousands of pilots have PFTed in the last two decades. Most of them are at majors now and are your union brothers. Some of them are union reps. Does it really make sense to attack them and alienate them for the rest of their careers for a mistake they made when they were newbies? That's up to you to decide.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The question is are the M3's (moniker messageboard minority) having an effect? Is the Hatin' workin'?

Where are GIA hopefuls? There are in high school and college. To hate the GIA alumni is counterproductive...

Perhaps the FI contingency should put together a picket at GIA headquarters!