Should an ATP be required for both pilots?

[Superpilot92]

Good deal Superpilot! (I assume you emailed your federal reps, since this is not a "state and local" matter). I wonder how many on this Board understand the window of opportunity that exists this week to help ourselves with a timely letter to Congress, but instead just want to whine here on Flightinfo.

Yeah i was referring to my Federal reps. I should have left out the state and local part I was just trying to make sure everyone knew to email their own reps. Everyone should be emailing their reps also. Whining about it on here wont get anything done.

 

[NuGuy]

Thats EXACTLY what needs to happen. I emailed my state and local reps about this a couple days ago. Imagine that, requiring pilots to have a *GASP* Airline Transport Pilot rating to fly as an Airline Pilot. Crazy i know The airlines can now just hire anyone they want often without even a sim evaluation just to get a warm body to fill a required seat. Force them to hire people with an ATP, people who have shown they can fly to Airline Transport Pilot standards (i know another gasp) then the airlines will have to raise pay to attract actual qualified pilots. That would also help get rid of alot of the zero to hero pilot factories. This absolutely needs to be what happens.

Heyas Super,

While we are at it, we should raise the TT requirement for CFIs beyond that for a commerical ticket as well. You should have SOME experience before you start signing off newbies, but that's an argument for another time.

I like the ATP requirement for new hires. In the past, the industry was self-regulating...mainly due to a hold-over of principals from the regulated era. Mainlines still flew the vast majority of the RPMs, and THEY had strict requirements. It was still the "golden ring".

The result was that there were always EXPERIENCED pilots looking to get on at the commuters, so they also had tight requirements. When I got hired at Henson, I had 3000TT, with 1400 scheduled, 135 turbine, and I was one of the low time guys in class. You had to pay your dues at every step. Instruct, cargo, charter, etc...

BTW, anyone who thinks that a 300TT civilian guy is as competent as a 300TT military guy, or a 1500TT civilian guy is feeding you a line of brainwashed hooey. And for those who chant "well, they hired 300 hour guys in the 60's"....sure, but those guys got hired as FLIGHT ENGINEERS, and sat there for a couple years being watched closely.

Now you are seeing the financial fallout in the industry coming home to roost. The mainline jobs, while still relatively decent, are no longer the lottery ticket they once were, so the interest downstream has also fallen off. When the expansion of the regionals, coupled with the crappy QoL/Pay led to a LACK of applicants, they had to drive hiring requirements down to a wet commerical and a pulse. Except now these guys are not riding sideways for a few years under the supervision of a major airline training program, but are being turned loose with captains with barely more experience than themselves.

Since the industry cannot or will not self-regulate any longer, then it's time to impose a minimum. The really interesting thing will be the unintended consequences (and there ALWAYS is). IMHO, in the current envrionment, you will be unable to find the number of ATP pilots needed, even with higher pay, because there simply will not be the bodies. To go from 250 hours to 1500 hours CFIing is going to take a LOT of time, magnified by all the additional people trying to teach. Sure, you can pay for it, but that's REALLY expensive, and number people is already getting reduced by the expense of flying. Fly frieght! Sure! Too bad Air21 nuked the cancelled check business, and there are only so many urine samples to fly.

The regionals will be FORCED to hang onto the people they have, otherwise they'll simply collapse (a good thing). When they start paying more for their pilots, the other employee groups will say "me too!", and their costs will skyrocket, and sooner or later the mainline partner will say "hey, we can do it ourselves cheaper, and have a better product", and simply let the contracts lapse, to whatever extent they can't get out of them for bad performance (also a good thing).

I really hope they make this a requirement, because of all the trouble it will cause for the regionals. And trouble is fun to watch, as long as it's not your trouble...now where is my popcorn and beer?

Nu

 

[Way2Broke]

Poll added

 

[deadstick]

IMO, if an ATP becomes mandatory for flying 121 I think the minimum experience for Part 135 non-passenger operations (ie freight) needs to be reduced to 750 hours, in order to give pilots a better avenue of achieving the experience that will make them better, more knowledgeable, more experienced airline crewmembers.

For VFR it's 500 already AND Flight Express was hiring VFR PICS awhile back.

On another point, let's say ATP becomes the min. What about all the FO's who do not meet the requirements (age, TT, or PIC time)? Are they grandfathered in? Some might not have flown much after getting hired with 300-500TT, spent a ton of time on reserve or furlough.

So,what happens?

 

[Andy Neill]

For VFR it's 500 already AND Flight Express was hiring VFR PICS awhile back.

On another point, let's say ATP becomes the min. What about all the FO's who do not meet the requirements (age, TT, or PIC time)? Are they grandfathered in? Some might not have flown much after getting hired with 300-500TT, spent a ton of time on reserve or furlough.

So,what happens?

Yes, they're grandfathered, but......they have to be paired with a captain over age 60.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

For VFR it's 500 already AND Flight Express was hiring VFR PICS awhile back.

On another point, let's say ATP becomes the min. What about all the FO's who do not meet the requirements (age, TT, or PIC time)? Are they grandfathered in? Some might not have flown much after getting hired with 300-500TT, spent a ton of time on reserve or furlough.

So,what happens?

Simple, they convert the SIC type to PIC type with the Feds observing, oral and sim. Give the operators 1 year to comply.Problem solved! Next!
PBR

 

[NuGuy]

For VFR it's 500 already AND Flight Express was hiring VFR PICS awhile back.

On another point, let's say ATP becomes the min. What about all the FO's who do not meet the requirements (age, TT, or PIC time)? Are they grandfathered in? Some might not have flown much after getting hired with 300-500TT, spent a ton of time on reserve or furlough.

So,what happens?

My guess is some kind of "Enhanced Observation Program" like FedEx has (or had) until they meet the minimum. Perhaps being forced to fly with LOE captains.

Or, worse, being put on LOA until they DO meet the requirements.

Bad things are afoot when congress gets involved (age 65, quod erat demonstrandum).

Nu

 

[cjdriver]

An airline pilot without an Airline Transport Pilot rating is insane. If the public knew only one of their two required "airline pilots" was a certified Airline Transport Pilot, they would freak. This is just corporate America getting by with less regulation in order to enhance their bottom line. Big business rules, citizens pay.

 

[RJLoser]

I posted this under a different thread, I think it fits all threads on this topic:

NOTHING IS GOING TO CHANGE. The dollar runs the show in this business and just as everything else in our industry this will be forgotten and pushed to the wayside. I hope to be wrong. I would love to eat my words.

 

[AC560]

Simple, they convert the SIC type to PIC type with the Feds observing, oral and sim. Give the operators 1 year to comply.Problem solved! Next!
PBR

Why stop there, why shouldn't the Fed's observe or better yet give you your next check?

 

[BoilerUP]

For VFR it's 500 already AND Flight Express was hiring VFR PICS awhile back.

Yes, and how many freight operations primarily or often do VFR 135? Not many...

Adjust IFR non-passenger 135 minimums down to 750tt if an ATP is required to be an airline pilot in order to give those pilots a better means of obtaining quality experience.

 

[Salukipilot4590]

Definitely as long as the airline gives it to the pilot in the sim along with the SIC type etc...

If it's a blanket "must have ATP" rule then those cert. mills are going to be booming with business...then again money drives all in aviation so I guess thats where it might go...

[/rant]

 

[Flying_Hiker]

Yes, and how many freight operations primarily or often do VFR 135? Not many...

Adjust IFR non-passenger 135 minimums down to 750tt if an ATP is required to be an airline pilot in order to give those pilots a better means of obtaining quality experience.

What's wrong with instructing until you get to 1200? I did it and then flew single pilot 135 for almost 2 years before going to a regional. I certainly don't think that reducing the minimums to be a 135 IFR PIC would be a very good idea. Single pilot 135 flying is significantly more difficult than sitting right seat in a turbo-prop/jet, and I think that one should have a decent amount of experience before jumping into that environment. That being said, I also do believe that one should also have a decent amount of experience before flying 121 as well. I am all for raising the requirements to have an ATP to fly 121.

 

[deadstick]

Yes, they're grandfathered, but......they have to be paired with a captain over age 60.

Oh boy...

Simple, they convert the SIC type to PIC type with the Feds observing, oral and sim. Give the operators 1 year to comply.Problem solved! Next!
PBR

How would that help? THey would still have a commercial with a PIC type? They'd still have to do an ATP ride at some point.

 

[FlyMeSWA]

a 250 hour pilot should not be flying a transport catagory aircraft.

How bout when my buddy at TWA got hired with a Commercial Multi and was flying a Connie and 707 when we would be flying a Beech 1900?

How about someone else at UAL who had a Single Commercial, got hired on the panel of a DC-8, then upgraded to the right seat without ever having a friggin MEL until his checkride on it?

Those are Transport category, they didn't have a problem, and both retired as 747 Line Check Airmen.

Historically, this is NOT a regional problem, or the cause of poor airmanship.

 

[Poahi]

. One cannot make an effective arguement against the fact that a 250 hour pilot should not be flying a transport catagory aircraft.

One cannot make an effective argument against the fact that a 1,500 hour pilot should not be flying as pilot in command in an airline environment.

 

[rustypigeon]

One cannot make an effective argument against the fact that a 1,500 hour pilot should not be flying as pilot in command in an airline environment.

I agree. It would not be a bad idea to increase the requirements for an ATP.

 

[BoilerUP]

What's wrong with instructing until you get to 1200? I did it and then flew single pilot 135 for almost 2 years before going to a regional.

With all due respect to your career progression, just because you (and thousands of others) did it that way doesn't mean its the best or only way for one to go.

Having nearly a thousand hours of dual given myself, one reaches a point of minimal "experience" gained in proportion to the hours of dual given beyond a certain point; I'd say 500 hours. By that point, you've already had people try to kill you dozens of times over, already taken the airplane away from people, already made plenty of PIC decisions; after that point IMO most instructors are simply logging the same hour time after time after time. Is that really the kind of experience that provides value in an airline cockpit?

 

[CA1900]

As a great, Soouthen poet once said, "Get 'er dun!"

You do know he's from Nebraska and the southern redneck thing is all an act, right? :laugh:

 

[imacdog]

For VFR it's 500 already AND Flight Express was hiring VFR PICS awhile back.

On another point, let's say ATP becomes the min. What about all the FO's who do not meet the requirements (age, TT, or PIC time)? Are they grandfathered in? Some might not have flown much after getting hired with 300-500TT, spent a ton of time on reserve or furlough.

So,what happens?

That would be very easy to handle via a transition period where all current 121 FOs will be given a certain time frame to get the ATP minimums and pass the checkride. Something like three years would give all 121 pilots the chance to meet those requirements.