Should an ATP be required for both pilots?

[deadstick]

That would be very easy to handle via a transition period where all current 121 FOs will be given a certain time frame to get the ATP minimums and pass the checkride. Something like three years would give all 121 pilots the chance to meet those requirements.

Playing devil's advocate here "Why do you mean three years?!?! They don't meet the experience requirements. So they shouldn't be in airliners! You're just asking for another Buffalo-style accident."



This is HRC's replacement. I'm no fan of the party, but I like her approach.

Honorable Mark V. Rosenker, Acting Chairman
National Transportation Safety Board
490 L'Enfant Plaza, SW
Washington, DC 20594


Dear Chairman Rosenker,

Over the course of the last week, we have heard shocking testimony about the grave errors that were made by the pilots of Continental Flight 3407. I am outraged to learn that the horrible crash could have been prevented had mistakes not been made.

As you thoroughly examine the evidence from this hearing and issue recommendations, I ask that you responsibly assess where the blame should truly lie. On behalf of the families who lost loved ones in this tragedy and all Americans who depend on safe air travel, I urge you not to turn the pilots of Flight 3407 into scapegoats.

While it appears that the pilots of this aircraft committed grave errors, their conduct seems to be an indictment of the aviation system as a whole. These pilots are the product of an aviation system where training, salaries, and oversight are severely flawed. We all heard how the co-pilot only made $16,000 a year, which obviously does not even cover the cost of living for a Newark-based crew member. Crew members live so far away and are not given proper accommodations before their flights, leaving them exhausted and ill-equipped to do their job.

Furthermore, these pilots did not have enough training for typical winter conditions in the northeast. In addition, the witness from the human resources department could not answer simple questions about requirements and qualifications for pilots.

Failing to hold the system accountable would be a further injustice to these families and all consumers across the country. The Federal Airline Administration must accept some of the responsibility for the tragedy in Buffalo, or these systemic risks and failures will continue.

Justice must be served for the men and women who lost their lives in the horrible accident of Flight 3407, and that does not mean resting all the blame on the pilots.

These pilots made grave errors but were also a product of an industry that is not adequately training or caring for their workers.

Sincerely,
Kirsten E. Gillibrand
United States Senator

 

[Lou3]

Do it! And Fast!

Require an ATP to work for any Part 121 Air carrier. It may not be a perfect solution however, it is a positive step in the right direction.

 

[imacdog]

Okay, replace three years with any number you think is reasonable. You cannot make a drastic change to FARs and expect immediate compliance.

 

[Superpilot92]

Okay, replace three years with any number you think is reasonable. You cannot make a drastic change to FARs and expect immediate compliance.

They did with Age 65

uke:AGE 65 :smash:

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

The government is much more likely to do a knee jerk poorly instituted "fix" like Age 65 rather than a well thought out, phased in system like the one suggested.

 

[skyaddict]

Definitely impose a left and right seat part 121 ATP requirement. Judging by the FI poll results this is one time we could really help push this with a write in campaign to our representatives as well as to the FAA if it ever comes to an NPRM. Ditto on duty hour revisions as regards fatigue. However, my gut feeling is that all we'll see come out of this accident in the end is a new audible low-speed warning prior to activating the shaker.

 

[Long Time Gone]

Dual ATPs wouldn't have changed a thing in the 3407 crash. The ATP himself is the one who failed to control sterile cockpit and ultimately was distracted enough to forget that when you add drag and don't add power, the aircraft stops flying. He also forgot that when the aircraft stops flying, it stalls, and when you through a whole bunch of rudder in there, it spins. There's also that whole thing about the aircraft isn't certified for spin recovery, too. She's just at fault for not shutting the hell up. How would an ATP have stopped this? The CA failed 5 rides total, 2 of which were with Colgan. Maybe Colgan's training department should've done the right thing a long time ago and gotten rid of him. Things that make you go Hhhhmmmm......

 

[imacdog]

While both crewmembers were talking below 10K, in the moments leading up to the approach there was no extraneous conversation at all. Yes, the captain absolutely botched the speed control and resulting attempted stall recovery. Do we owe it to ourselves and our passengers to raise the bar in terms of pilot requirements to fly for a 121 air carrier? Yes, and now would be the time to finally act on what many have been thinking for some time.

 

[igneousy2]

FORGET IT, PEOPLE!

I know people who got hired at Eastern and United back in the day who had never flown a plane with two or more engines and who had less than 300 hrs.

Oh yea! What was HER name?

 

[PURPLEHAZE21]

I completely support having an ATP prior to working at a Regional or Major. I know why, but never understood how United and other Majors were able to post the minimum commercial requirements, in terms of experience for hire, when selecting applicants. This is not just a problem for Regionals. It is becoming systemic in our industry and will most likely continue.

 

[ultrarunner]

In short, YES!!!

You can't even apply to a company like NetJets (I know, they are a fractional) unless you have the minimum number of hours AND the ATP.

Outfits like NetJets are providing service to an entirely different class of customer.

Airlines are hauling mail and cattle, and could give a $hit! THAT is the reason some of these 121 carriers are crewing their planes with pilots who meet ONLY the BARE minimum requirements!

Ask any NetJets ACP how many of their pilots are flying around with multiple PC failures!

 

[30West]

Maybe Colgan's training department should've done the right thing a long time ago and gotten rid of him. Things that make you go Hhhhmmmm......

The training dept. doesn't hire/fire. HR does.

 

[skyaddict]

Even if the dual ATP requirement wouldn't have directly prevented 3407, the furor around the perception of "McDonald's"-level employees flying the traveling public gives us a possibly once in a lifetime (and short-lived) opportunity to restrict pilot supply and thereby boost pilot bargaining power, pay, and benefits, ultimately benefiting safety at the bottom end of the food chain. We should jump on this.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Even if the dual ATP requirement wouldn't have directly prevented 3407, the furor around the perception of "McDonald's"-level employees flying the traveling public gives us a possibly once in a lifetime (and short-lived) opportunity to restrict pilot supply and thereby boost pilot bargaining power, pay, and benefits, ultimately benefiting safety at the bottom end of the food chain. We should jump on this.

And we have a winner....

 

[Flyin Tony]

I say no! You have to be 23 to get the ATP, thats going to stop alot of us young people from getting on at the airlines. I was 21 and sitting in the left seat of the E120 and SA227, I think its all about experience.

 

[Superpilot92]

Dual ATPs wouldn't have changed a thing in the 3407 crash. The ATP himself is the one who failed to control sterile cockpit and ultimately was distracted enough to forget that when you add drag and don't add power, the aircraft stops flying. He also forgot that when the aircraft stops flying, it stalls, and when you through a whole bunch of rudder in there, it spins. There's also that whole thing about the aircraft isn't certified for spin recovery, too. She's just at fault for not shutting the hell up. How would an ATP have stopped this? The CA failed 5 rides total, 2 of which were with Colgan. Maybe Colgan's training department should've done the right thing a long time ago and gotten rid of him. Things that make you go Hhhhmmmm......

This discussion isnt about the colgan crash. Its about whether or not a pilot working in the 121 Airline profession should be held to Airline Transport Pilot standards. Most believe that ALL pilots should. It would be safer, it would help bring pay and treatment of pilots up. Without that standard than the airlines will continue to hire anyone with a fresh ticket regardless of whether or not they should be flying in the 121 world. Currently the airlines have set the pay up so low that they just hire anyone they can to fill a required seat.

 

[Lou3]

Outfits like NetJets are providing service to an entirely different class of customer.

Airlines are hauling mail and cattle, and could give a $hit! THAT is the reason some of these 121 carriers are crewing their planes with pilots who meet ONLY the BARE minimum requirements!

Ask any NetJets ACP how many of their pilots are flying around with multiple PC failures!

I'm well aware of that (hence the parenthesis) however, the average 'Joe' still deserves the same level of Safety (if not the pampering). A human life is a human life, the worth of that life should not be based upon economics.

 

[Lou3]

I say no! You have to be 23 to get the ATP, thats going to stop allot of us young people from getting on at the airlines. I was 21 and sitting in the left seat of the E120 and SA227, I think its all about experience.

Tony, I don't mean any disrespect to you and I also agree that experience matter's however, MOST people are not ready to handle the responsibility that Part 121 flying truly entails until they are at least 23. Heck, most people that attend college don't even graduate until about age 23 and then begin working in their chosen major. There is simply a certain amount of maturity and 'life seasoning' that is required to perform this job that is independent of pure flying skills and ability. Your achievement at age 21, while certainly impressive, is not typically the norm.

 

[ultrarunner]

...A human life is a human life, the worth of that life should not be based upon economics.

Of course is shouldn't. But it is!

It will only be until such time as one of these outfits kills a senators wife and kids that the pathetic practice of hiring COMPLETELY INEXPERIENCED PILOTS will get noticed...

It's the best argument to sticking with mainline..PERIOD...

 

[cjdriver]

In corporate aviation, most reputable organizations type every pilot and have co-captains. Why would you not want the highest certification, training and experience in the cockpit; the answer could only be economic. Airlines should require ATP's and type ratings for both pilots. This would probably have prevented the 3407 accident.

 

[BoilerUP]

This would probably have prevented the 3407 accident.

No, it wouldn't have.

The ATP-rated captain was the PF who mismanaged his airspeed, and while the FO wasn't ATP rated I've seen it reported she met the minimum requirements to hold one.

Holding an ATP is not insurance against committing a stupid pilot trick or an act of poor airmanship.

 

[cjdriver]

If she had an ATP and was typed in the airplane, she probably would have caught the low airspeed. Not certain, but likely. I don't think anyone could argue that having two ATP rated and typed pilots is safer than not.

 

[BoilerUP]

I don't think anyone could argue that having two ATP rated and typed pilots is safer than not.

No, one couldn't argue that.

...but its a looooooooooong stretch to say if she had an ATP (which she didn't but was qualified for) and/or was typed in the airplane (which only would have required her do a no-flap landing and circling approach in addition to the SIC check, IIRC) that she would have caught the low airspeed that she was already trained to recognize yet failed to.

Were both pilots who crashed the Gulfstream in ASE both type-rated ATPs?

What about the pilots who crashed the Gulfstream at HOU?

What about the Challenger pilots at MJT who didn't deice?

I know what you're trying to say about the increase in safety and I don't disagree with the thought...but there is no way one can say(or even infer) that this gal having an ATP would have been the break in the accident chain preventing these needless deaths.

 

[FO 4 Life]

Folks, the ATP is a piece of plastic. Saying one should meet the minimums for it before getting a job at an airline I'll agree with. Saying someone should have the certificate doesn't mean they will fly any better.

I got my ATP in a seminole paired with an Eagle driver. I don't think that instantly made me a better pilot (or him) when I sat in the right seat of a 727 the next week. I did it because I wanted it when I applied to other airlines. No other reason.

 

[acpilot]

Yes, they're grandfathered, but......they have to be paired with a captain over age 60.

...except on Tuesdays and Federal holidays...

Tightening the regs, while well intentioned, will only cost the company (and flying public) more $$ in the end. I'm sure the argument that the passengers are "paying for safety" can and will be made, the simple fact remains that pilots are human beings and human beings WILL make mistakes and continue to crash airplanes. Increasing prices will only drive more people away and that's the last thing we need. Where is the balance?

Lakes has some of the lowest mins I have ever seen and they haven't killed anyone. A list of non-fatals...yes. But what do you expect when you fly in the conditions they fly in.

The key is training. All the exp in the world can't make up for good training.

 

[AC560]

Not certain, but likely. I don't think anyone could argue that having two ATP rated and typed pilots is safer than not.

I don't think anyone could argue if the FAA handed out all checkrides and they pulled certificates for failure that we would have much better/safer pilots. Pilots would also be much higher paid as the washout rates every year (from 1yr to 40yr pilots) would drive salaries up due to lack of demand.

Why is the argument only about what it takes to be hired, not what it takes to keep the job or is it because that hits a little to close to home and you aren't confident in your ability to ace a ride with the Feds?

 

[BoilerUP]

I don't think anyone could argue if the FAA handed out all checkrides and they pulled certificates for failure that we would have much better/safer pilots.

Why on earth would you advocate having someone's certificate suspended or revoked for a checkride failure? Hell, even doctors don't have their MD revoked if they kill somebody with a mistake...

There's enough pressure as is to pass...why put that much more pressure on pilots to pass a checkride that already isn't very realistic?

I haven't failed a checkride to this point in my career, but I also recognize I'm not immune from making a mistake and shouldn't have my career or my livelihood jeopardized because of a single screwup on a checkride...especially when FAA inspectors have a habit of landing gear-up in airplanes they're flying.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Oh yea! What was HER name?

This occured in the early 1960s, and it was 100% male. They would not hire females, which led to the problem you are referring to above. If ALL the airlines would have always hired the best qualified applicants, there would not have been any preferential hiring at all.

I am flying overseas, and learning even more than I did about ICAO and how the rest of the world operates.

EVERYONE has a type rating, which I think is best. And I don't mean a crap FAA invented "FO Type Rating" to get around ICAO rules, to save money for all of their customers (upper management and owners of aviation organizations).

To fly commercially in Kenya, you need an oral and flight test for EVERY airplane that you earn money in. You need a checkout for a 172, and then a separate checkout for a 182, etc.

The -135/-125 crap, not to mention, Oh we're part -91, and we're going to make a lot of money as a private, non-commercial organization is the MOST crap of all!

Overseas, you have Commercial, and private. If you make so much as one dollar, it is Commercial, and all the regs apply. In other words, if you own the plane, and you fly it for fun, it is private (-91). If you, the owner, or the pilot, or the organization, earns money from that aircraft in ANY form, it is Commercial (-121). No part -91 charter, no part -91 subpart K (what the he!! is that, anyway?), no part -135, no part -125, etc., etc.

I have come to believe that ICAO standards are definitely better than FAA standards.

And, from what I have heard, in Europe, with the most experience required and the strictest standards for pilots, guess what?...they have the highest paid pilots!

The reason that American pilots are working overseas, is that the FAA has made it cheap to learn to fly here, in part by having easier standards and more lax regulation than other places.

cliff
NBO

 

[acpilot]

I don't think anyone could argue if the FAA handed out all checkrides and they pulled certificates for failure that we would have much better/safer pilots. Pilots would also be much higher paid as the washout rates every year (from 1yr to 40yr pilots) would drive salaries up due to lack of demand.

It's been said, but that's probably the least constructive idea out there.

 

[rustypigeon]

No, it wouldn't have.

The ATP-rated captain was the PF who mismanaged his airspeed, and while the FO wasn't ATP rated I've seen it reported she met the minimum requirements to hold one.

Holding an ATP is not insurance against committing a stupid pilot trick or an act of poor airmanship.

Holding and ATP is certainly not insurance against poor airmanship. My arguement is that more pilots (not all) will be forced to develop the fundementals of flying by spending their early days flight instructing and flying 135.

The fact is, there is a high learning curve for the first couple thousand hours in aviation. There is no better way to learn stick and rudder than to teach it as a CFI. There is no better way to learn weather flying and the system than to fly 135 yourself.

I feel that pilots who have by-passed this traditional route to a 121 career missed a great opportunity to develop themselves as pilots.