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Should an ATP be required for both pilots?

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Should a ATP be required to fly for an airline?

  • Yes

    Votes: 792 83.2%

  • No

    Votes: 144 15.1%

  • Undecided

    Votes: 16 1.7%
  • Total voters
    952
MPL Crew License

Let me correct a previous post it is 240 hours, and skip the turbo prop, or the RJ.

Any idea how long before it comes here ?

And you thought age 65 was bad for your career, wait till this happens.

Is anyone following this ?
 
Hi!

The C-17, C-130 and C-5 FOs with around 200 hours seem to be doing pretty well to me!

cliff
NBO
 
Hi!

I think the difference between Mil and FBO tng and selection is just the point. Boeing was talking about CHANGING the training possiblities for new airline pilots. If the airlines/training schools want to put the resources into selection and training, they can come up with a new model that works better.

cliff
NBO
 
atpcliff said:
Hi!

The C-17, C-130 and C-5 FOs with around 200 hours seem to be doing pretty well to me!

cliff
NBO
Click to expand...

Well, the reality is..
I have known a few pilots who did not complete UPT and ended up going through Airline Training Schools and into the cockpits of commercial airliners, but not the other way around..
Failing out of Gulfstream or ComAir Academy and making it into a military cockpit!

Mil pilots have 4 yr degrees and then do a 2 yr training program before completing and getting put out on the line. And even then, they are the lowest level of qualication and fly with instructors and senior pilots.

Even the most junior copilot on a C-5, -17 or -130 is at least 24-25 years old, has a 4 year degree and probably 400-500 hours before he (or she) is out there flying line missions as regular first pilots with regular aircraft commanders.

Way different than what you may find in a 121 Regional cockpit.
An ATP needs to be required to crew a 121 operated aircraft~

motch
 
Hi!

It looks like the ATP WILL be required, so that is settled (unless something goes really wrong with the House/Senate bill compromise).

cliff
NBO
 
atpcliff said:
Hi!

It looks like the ATP WILL be required, so that is settled (unless something goes really wrong with the House/Senate bill compromise).

cliff
NBO
Click to expand...

Are they going to allow college credit to reduce the 1500 hour requirement?
 
Hi!

From what I read in the HOUSE bill, there was no mention of hourly reductions. It said something like the FAA would decide on the hourly reductions.

I have also read in a number of posts that the Senate version of the bill does not have the 'Embry-Riddle' escape clause in in.

House says ATP req. will go into effect 36 mos after bill signed, and everyone -121 at that point will need atp. Do NOT know if it applies to -121 Supplemental, but it should, and the whole FAA mess allowing parts -135, -125, -91 Subpart F, -91 Subpart K, and Part 91 to fly commerically is a MESS!

cliff
nbo
 
motch said:
Well, the reality is..
I have known a few pilots who did not complete UPT and ended up going through Airline Training Schools and into the cockpits of commercial airliners, but not the other way around..
Failing out of Gulfstream or ComAir Academy and making it into a military cockpit!

Mil pilots have 4 yr degrees and then do a 2 yr training program before completing and getting put out on the line. And even then, they are the lowest level of qualication and fly with instructors and senior pilots.

Even the most junior copilot on a C-5, -17 or -130 is at least 24-25 years old, has a 4 year degree and probably 400-500 hours before he (or she) is out there flying line missions as regular first pilots with regular aircraft commanders.

Way different than what you may find in a 121 Regional cockpit.
An ATP needs to be required to crew a 121 operated aircraft~

motch
Click to expand...


I've seen some pretty bad military pilots.
 
I think if you were to sample between x amount of mil. pilots and civ. pilots that your going to find a pretty even number between good and bad. What it may really boil down to is types of flyng. Hand flying difficult approaches in bad weather may show mil. pilots are better. Or maybe extreme CRM situations may show an civ. airline pilot will be better. It's going to be a toss up as to who is good and its going to boil down to the individual. It's impossible to say who is going to make the better pilot.
 
Lynxman said:
Hand flying difficult approaches in bad weather may show mil. pilots are better. Or maybe extreme CRM situations may show an civ. airline pilot will be better. .
Click to expand...

Well since I have been on both sides of the fence at the same time I would say you have it backwards.

And my view is everyone should have an ATP...it stands for AIRLINE transport pilot....the title should match who uses it.....if you work for an airline you need to have it period. I flew freight to build my time to get where I wanted to go. I do not feel comfortable with someone with less than ATP min hours flying me or my family around.
 
Last edited:
ATP for 121 ops...

RedDogC130 said:
And my view is everyone should have an ATP...it stands for AIRLINE transport pilot....the title should match who uses it.....
Click to expand...

I agree RedDog.

Think of it this way. If 121 operators can't be held to the ATP standard for hiring, they can then drop down to the next lowest level that meets the FAA requirement. And that's a Commercial/Instrument/ME, and folks can get that with, what, 250 hours total time???

This was a long time coming...and I'll be glad to see it pass.

As a bonus, some of the pilot-mill rip-off outfits will go bye-bye...also a good thing! Imagine a world with no Gulfstream Academy! Ahhhhh....that'll be a happy day!
 
Hi!

They can hire guys without a Commercial. You can get a commercial with as low as about 188 hours total time.

cliff
NBO
 
YES!!!!!!!! Right on RedDogC130 that's the truth

Originally Posted by RedDogC130
And my view is everyone should have an ATP...it stands for AIRLINE transport pilot....the title should match who uses it.....
 
I haven't read the past 18 pages to cover all replies, but I ate ramen noodles with the rest of my fellow bretheren flight instructing to get my IFR 135 mins and then "busted a hump" to put it mildly doing 135 check hauling WELL PAST ATP mins earning $1500 mo. as a contract employee(for all you youngn's, look at what that involves, paying"FICA" etc.) during the 90's.(air whisky and AE wanted 2500t 500 turb multi to start with if I recall correctly) If you are "LUCKY" enough to have foregone this rite of passage and still have gained some VALUABLE flight time then I am at a loss of words to tell you what you missed(speaking from my own experience) As much as I hated the IFR 135 mins and ATP mins(at that time keeping me from an AIRLINE job/compared to the current mins), I would say that the bare minimum for an IFR Comm license should be ATP standards. Don't get me wrong, I have had some very low time FO's when I was a CA at a regional that were exceptional pilots for the amount of time they had, but the real world experience was definitely lacking due to no fault but their own lack of flight time. I know check hauling is becoming a relic, but flying hard IFR as a CFI (within your comfort zone/good judgement/legal mins etc.)or flying banners, getting a good corp. job, "mixing it up" with different experience etc. goes a long way and the higher mins will only help with raising the bar to get better pay and weed out the "daddy's money" pilots (it took me 10 years to pay off my student loans @ 8%) and others that have the "instant gratification syndrome" (it took me 12 yrs to reach a major/some may take longer, some may take less especially due to age 65) but the journey is what you make/learn of it. No flame intended!
 
Wooly said:
Don't get me wrong, I have had some very low time FO's when I was a CA at a regional that were exceptional pilots for the amount of time they had, but the real world experience was definitely lacking due to no fault but their own lack of flight time.
Click to expand...

That is the problem with those who don't see the line flying. All they see is the new hires going through training with little problem. They can fly the heck out of the sim but once on line, they struggle with basic communication and flying visual approaches. Experience is experience. You can't change that no matter how much sim time you have.
 
Tarzan said:
That is the problem with those who don't see the line flying. All they see is the new hires going through training with little problem. They can fly the heck out of the sim but once on line, they struggle with basic communication and flying visual approaches. Experience is experience. You can't change that no matter how much sim time you have.
Click to expand...


sorry, I meant to say I was a plain ol' Captain not a Check Airman CA/OE Captain. Most low time pilots did well until the workload increased due to bad wx, keeping your speed up in NYC airspace and trying to configure/maintain a stabilized descent profile, etc. I recall one rare exception with a new FO who had about 400- 500 TT and was a "natural". Later that year he earned an A-10 flight slot. He was a real nice guy and very modest about his abilities and this was the consensus amongst all the Captains I spoke to as well.
 
Hi!

this hiring with 251 hours bullsh1t is gotta stop.
Click to expand...

Or hiring with 188 hours.

Or with only a PPL and Instrument Rating...no CPL at all.

cliff
GRB
 
An ATP is really nothing... I think it should be mandatory.

- 1500 hours and 250 PIC ( of course other small things to be met ) ..... but really... 1500 hours? Less than 2 years of instructing could manage that.... what happend to working for something? Some kids just want the rating and think they should have companies knockign down the door. I suppose I would not have been much different at that age though to be honest.

- Some people just need to be patient, flight instruct until they have the ATP mins then take the test instead of insisting to fly a jet with a little over 300 hours total time. Be patient, get some experience and relax. Even at 1500 hours the expereince level is very low. That being said, a 10,000 hour pilot can screw up just as easy.

:-)
 
lookin4better said:
That being said, a 10,000 hour pilot can screw up just as easy.

:-)
Click to expand...


The difference is that "most of the time" the 10,000 hour pilot can probably realize he/she screwed up and try to fix it or just ask for help...the low time wonder wannabee has no clue he/she is fcking up which is scary.
 
Not having ATP should be alright, but I do think pilots should have their minimum time for ATP inorder to fly for an airline though.
 

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