Should an ATP be required for both pilots?

[WayBack]

Sure you did, WayBack. We were all born perfect pilots.....

That has nothing to do with it. I had a regional captain as my instructor and made it a point since day one.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

So who are the spineless D-bags that voted undecided?

 

[Salukipilot4590]

wow 81 to 16...that pretty much says it...

 

[imacdog]

I might be reading this wrong, but are you saying all you want them to do is pass the ATP ride?

Pretty much, yes, along with all the other requirements of holding an ATP. I don't care how they get the experience necessary to qualify for an ATP, whether it be military, instruction, charter, freight, etc, I just want to know when I'm sitting in the back of an airliner that both pilots up front are rated airline transport pilots.

 

[WayBack]

Pretty much, yes, along with all the other requirements of holding an ATP. I don't care how they get the experience necessary to qualify for an ATP, whether it be military, instruction, charter, freight, etc, I just want to know when I'm sitting in the back of an airliner that both pilots up front are rated airline transport pilots.

Ok, because you know that places like All ATP will put you through the motions, just to pass the check ride. That's good enough for you? So then what's really the point of making them meet the requirement knowing there are schools like this, and you can just drop $2500 and a day later have the rating??

 

[rustypigeon]

Ok, because you know that places like All ATP will put you through the motions, just to pass the check ride. That's good enough for you? So then what's really the point of making them meet the requirement knowing there are schools like this, and you can just drop $2500 and a day later have the rating??

How is continuing to allow 250 hour pilots to fly 121 going to make the industry better or safer?

 

[WayBack]

How is continuing to allow 250 hour pilots to fly 121 going to make the industry better or safer?

I never said let 250 hour guys continue to be hired.
Just saying the ATP rating isn't going to save it.

 

[BoilerUP]

Seriously...

How many pilots have been hired into regional airline cockpits in the last decade with <300hrs?

Probably a VERY small percentage of the overall number.

Let one not have the argument of added experience get muddled in hyperbole about n00b pilots just hours removed from a checkride in a Seminole being thrown into RJs.

 

[imacdog]

Ok, because you know that places like All ATP will put you through the motions, just to pass the check ride. That's good enough for you? So then what's really the point of making them meet the requirement knowing there are schools like this, and you can just drop $2500 and a day later have the rating??

Sure but it's no different from a place like All ATPs or that crappy CAPT program putting someone through the motions at 250 hours for the commercial, just to pass the check ride. Somewhere between 250 hours and 1500 hours, experience is going to be gained.

To reiterate:

An ATP rating requires six times the total experience as the commercial rating. See the difference?

 

[imacdog]

Seriously...

How many pilots have been hired into regional airline cockpits in the last decade with <300hrs?

Probably a VERY small percentage of the overall number.

I can name someone who got hired at Colgan with 650 hours. How did that work out for those passengers? What about the inexperienced-when-hired Pinnacle pilots - what did that poor RJ ever do to them that deserved melting both engines while they played cowboy at FL410?

 

[BoilerUP]

I can name someone who got hired at Colgan with 650 hours. How did that work out for those passengers? What about the inexperienced-when-hired Pinnacle pilots - what did that poor RJ ever do to them that deserved melting both engines while they played cowboy at FL410?

Tragic events no doubt...both caused by inattention and lack of basic airmanship, not the amount of hours in their logbook. After all, how many hours did that Colgan pilot hired at 650 hours have when they perished in a crash?

How many hours did the Comair pilots who took off from the wrong runway have?

How many hours did the Gulfstream III pilots in Houston & Aspen have when the crashed short of the runway? Or the Challenger crew that overran in TEB or the Challenger crew that didn't deice in Montrose?

How many hours did the Shuttle America crew that busted minimums and landed on a too-short runway in the middle of a snowstorm have?

How about the NWA crew that landed an Airbus at Ellsworth AFB instead of RAP (thankfully no metal was scratched in that one)?

---

Look, I know what you're driving at, and I don't disagree with what you're saying about airline pilots holding an ATP even though I didn't have enough hours when I was hired by a regional airline.

But let's call a spade a spade - its not like airplanes crewed by sub-1500hr FOs have been or are falling out of the sky and its not like a pilot with 1400 hours is inheirently any less safe than a pilot with 1501 hours and a temporary ATP certificate. Outside of FLG3701, I don't think there have been any accidents that one can easily attribute to a lack of experience (although I still think that one is much more due to gross negligence).

Its completely reasonable that airline pilots be required to hold an Airline Transport Pilot certificate before flying 121 operations...but let's not mix the desire to increase experience in the cockpit with the desire many here have voiced of curtailing pilot supply and therefore leading to higher pilot salaries.

 

[imacdog]

You don't think the Colgan accident was attributed to lack of experience? How much experience in recovering from actual stalls do you think that former GIA captain had? Is pull back on the stick and snapping the plane into a spin something a former CFI would do? How about the low time FO not noticing the decaying speed and lack of assertiveness in bringing that to the attention of the captain? While it's true that airplanes crewed with inexperienced pilots are not falling out of the sky every day, a very disproportionate number of recent airline accidents are caused by less experienced crews. Regionals have been hiring pilots with 1,000 hours and less for some time now; I think we owe it to the public to do something about that.

I don't give a crap about raising regional pilot pay. All I want to do is not die when I ride around in the back of a regional airliner. Do you think my chances of staying alive are better with more experienced pilots, or less experienced pilots?

 

[rustypigeon]

...but let's not mix the desire to increase experience in the cockpit with the desire many here have voiced of curtailing pilot supply and therefore leading to higher pilot salaries.

Why not help fix both problems with one rule?

 

[BoilerUP]

No, I don't think the Colgan accident was due to a lack of experience; I think it was due to a series of mistakes and poor airmanship. After all, despite his two 121 training failures Capt. Renslow had been a SF340 captain prior to flying the Q400. While new to the airplane, it wasn't his first time being in command.

As far as FO Shaw, she met the requirements to hold an ATP at the time of the accident but did not have one. By your definition of minimal level of experience acceptable for a 121 cockpit, she had enough on that fateful evening. She didn't miss the airspeed because she wasn't experienced or didn't hold an ATP; she missed the airspeed because she was inattentive to WTF was going on. Regardless of her background and experience, I trust Colgan trains their PNF to monitor airspeed while on approach and make the appropriate calls and for whatever reason it didn't happen.

Again, I don't disagree with your proposal, but I don't follow the logic of you or anybody else who points to this crash and says SEE! WE NEED TO REQUIRE AN ATP FOR SAFETY. An ATP means somebody has 1500tt and 500 hours of XC and can fly to a minimal standard - nothing more. Is it more than currently required? Yes. Do I think it is reasonable to require airline pilots to have an ATP? Yes. Do I think this is remotely a factor in the Colgan accident, or would have prevented it? Absolutely not. An ATP does not provide insurance against making a bad decision, mishandling an airplane, or performing a stupid pilot trick.

 

[imacdog]

Do you think those pilots would have learned better airmanship if they had flown more, and demonstrated their abilities to an ATP level, before getting hired at Colgan? I would prefer that pilots learn basic airmanship before flying my ass around, if you don't feel that way then that's cool and we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[BoilerUP]

Do you think those pilots would have learned better airmanship if they had flown more, and demonstrated their abilities to an ATP level, before getting hired at Colgan?

Not necessarily.

They had to demonstrate their abilities to an ATP level to pass their training while going through training AT Colgan. Obviously CA Renslow did not perform to this standard on his initial BE1900 SIC check and his initial SF340 type ride, but subsequently had including his Q400 training.

FO Shaw had 1600 hours when hired by Colgan (at least that's what I read she said in the CVR transcript), so AGAIN, she'd met your minimum experience requirements sans having taken a checkride.

I would prefer that pilots learn basic airmanship before flying my ass around

Me too...the difference is you seem to think having passed a checkride which can be obtained with a single's day prep automatically makes one a better, safer pilot and I do not.

Even having mastered basic airmanship, and even with an ATP, one still is not immune from a mistake, boneheaded move, stupid pilot trick, mishandling of an airplane. If you have an ATP will you be less apt to do those things? Maybe...maybe not.

if you don't feel that way then that's cool and we'll have to agree to disagree.

I don't think we're quite as far apart in our thinking as you seem to think...

 

[Metro752]

Maybe they will require an ATP to fly the E-190 HEAVY at Republic.

 

[imacdog]

FO Shaw had 1600 hours when hired by Colgan (at least that's what I read she said in the CVR transcript), so AGAIN, she'd met your minimum experience requirements sans having taken a checkride.

We don't know if she met the requirements of the ATP beyond the 1500 hour total time requirement. I'm also not saying that both pilots having ATPs would have prevented the Colgan accident - but you can't deny that requiring airlines to hire people with more experience, and having already demonstrated their abilities to ATP standards, will increase safety to the general public. I know I sure as hell learned a lot about flying while working my way up to the ATP standards and requirements, and those who bypass building that experience and going straight into riding shotgun on an RJ or turboprop are simply not as experienced aviators as those who did build their experience first. Increased wages as a result of thinning the pilot applicant pool to ATP-holders only is not my concern, only safety.

 

[say again]

Gaining an ATP doesnt make one a better pilot. It's the experience in the cockpit that makes one a better, safer pilot. So no, I don't think both pilots should have to be ATP rated. I do believe they should have more experience than a few hundred hrs though.

 

[imacdog]

And how do you require that? Require airlines to hire ATP-rated pilots..........

 

[TheInsider]

This is a subject developing in another thread, but I think it deserves its own thread.

I think that if the regs were to change and require an ATP for both PIC and SIC, a couple of issues at the regional level would be addressed.

First of all we have the experience factor. One cannot make an effective arguement against the fact that a 250 hour pilot should not be flying a transport catagory aircraft. Sure the military and some foreign airlines do it, but they have a highly competitive selection process. The first 1500 hours of a pilots career should be spent improving his airmanship as a cfi and 135 light twin pilot. I can't help but think that tragic events would be reduced if pilots spent at least their first 1500 hours teaching stalls in a 152, or flying a baron single pilot through the ice at night.

I am not saying that having an ATP makes one a superpilot. I also know that some will manage to accrue 1500 hours having never earned their CFI or gain any 135 experience. The ATP requirement would just ensure that most of the newly hired pilots will have had a little bit of exposure to the system.

An ATP requirement would also force wages to increase. Imagine if the regionals could no longer hire from the puppy mills. The feed of 250 hour pilots willing to take any job for any wage would be cut off. Those who were not dedicated to aviation would reconsider it as a career if they were not gauranteed that job with just a couple hundred hours.

I see many statements being made that pay needs to increase, and believe me it does. We are never going to see the day that airlines feel sorry for us and increase our pay. The government is never going to set a minimum wage for pilots, this I assure you. The only way to increase the pay is to lower the supply. An ATP requirement is not only reasonable, it is logical.

This would help in regards to experience. What is still lacking is proper training from day one of flight training.

 

[Poahi]

It's an interesting idea from one other standpoint. It will clearly discourage more pilots from getting in to the airline industry. If you factor in how much time it is going to take to earn that extra 1,000 hours of instruction, (plus the fact there will be fewer students to teach), then thousands of pilots aren't going to waste the time and money to become pilots. Figure an extra 2.5 years with virtually no pay. If an instructor had to teach 20 students to earn 500 hours of total time, - to make it to the regionals, they would need 80 to make it to 1,500 hours. Where are these extra 80 going to come from? You going to spend five years at an academy? Then we wil have endless threads on FI whining about how the high minimums don't prevent accidents. For those who are already in the industry, it's great to have more pressure on airlines for better pay to attract those instructors - who wouldn't be for that?

What will happen is that during the next boom cycle in the airline industry, capacity won't keep pace with demand because of lack of crews and ticket prices may rise.

Fewer pilots mean more pressure on regionals to offer better pay and work rules and ultimately the situation will right itself.

 

[rustypigeon]

This would help in regards to experience. What is still lacking is proper training from day one of flight training.

I agree. Hopefully the training would improve since there will be more experienced CFI's out there.

 

[hindsight2020]

What about ab initio? It has worked relatively well so far for the military and the Europeans, what's the problem with implementing it domestically? The only downside I can see is many people wouldn't make the cut and have their dreams of flying a shiny jet dashed. I'm happy with that, after all we dont weep for the kid who bombed the MCAT and didn't get into med school. The probative value of flying my family around by vested competent higher-than-median performers in aggregate is greater than allowing someone a diluted 16K/yr dream.

Any thoughts?

 

[Dornier 335]

complete bs

What about ab initio? It has worked relatively well so far for the military and the Europeans, what's the problem with implementing it domestically? The only downside I can see is many people wouldn't make the cut and have their dreams of flying a shiny jet dashed. I'm happy with that, after all we dont weep for the kid who bombed the MCAT and didn't get into med school. The probative value of flying my family around by vested competent higher-than-median performers in aggregate is greater than allowing someone a diluted 16K/yr dream.

Any thoughts?

Yes, I personally think it is total cr@p! From my experiences with some airlines in Europe, pilots are more book-oriented than plane oriented (pilot skills). They do not have the skills I have seen in the US. Visual approaches? Not in FRA, CDG, BRU, MAN, LHR etc. Everything is so SOP it makes you wonder if the company has actually any confidence in their pilots' flying skills. When I first started to fly over there with my US-way of doing things, most of my co-pilots had to change their diapers. No hand-flying ILS if in IMC, no hand-flying circling, no raw-data ILS if in VMC. Auto-pilot engage at 10,000 feet and disconnect to hand-fly approaches? Shocking!! Can't obviously speak for all of them, but what I have seen is not impressive at all.

Legacy carriers in Europe have aptitude tests that are complete bs. You can actually prep yourself for these, which means that if you have the $$$ you're in. Look at some incidents with legacy carriers and you'd notice a certain lack of piloting skills, eg. LH landing @ HAM over a year ago. I have to admit that the winds can be much trickier in Europe (especially when a travelling low passes through) than I have experienced in my 10 years in the US, but this comes down to excessive auto-pilot flying per SOP. The other thing about ab-initio airlines is that they will not hire any external pilots, have age limits and other restrictions to keep you out.

Bottom line: There has to be a better balance between training and experience for both the US and Europe.

Ab-initio? No, thank you!

 

[waka]

I agree that an ATP and/or more experience doesn't guarantee a more competent or safer pilot as high time pilots have been at fault in accidents too. I also agree that the type or quality of one's flight time is a significant factor. However, on average, the more experienced pilot is the safer pilot and flight time is the best way to measure experience. That is what it boils down to

That said, it would be a double standard to limit this ATP requirement to 121. I believe that an ATP (or at least ATP minimums) should be required of the SIC in any operation in which the PIC is required to have an ATP.

 

[BoilerUP]

It would be a double standard to limit this ATP requirement to 121. I believe that an ATP (or ATP minimums) should be required of the SIC in any operation in which the PIC is required to have an ATP.

Would it really be a double standard to apply the Airline Transport Pilot certificate requirement to airline pilots only?

What other operations require an ATP to act as PIC? Part 91 subpart K (fractional) multi-engine turbine & Part 135 turbojets/aircraft with more than 9 pax seats/any multi-engine commuter operation are the only ones I'm aware of.

Your point, however, about the proposal applying toward all air carrier certificate holders is well taken.

 

[waka]

Would it really be a double standard to apply the Airline Transport Pilot certificate requirement to airline pilots only?

Although airlines is specifically what was on the minds of those that created the ATP, the word "airline" (as you have exampled below) in Airline Transport Pilot is no longer exclusively applicable to airlines. I guess I don't consider 91 subpart K (fractional) multi-engine turbine & Part 135 turbojets/aircraft as airlines per se.

What other operations require an ATP to act as PIC? Part 91 subpart K (fractional) multi-engine turbine & Part 135 turbojets/aircraft with more than 9 pax seats/any multi-engine commuter operation are the only ones I'm aware of.

Your point, however, about the proposal applying toward all air carrier certificate holders is well taken.

The operations you listed are the ones I had in mind

 

[say again]

And how do you require that? Require airlines to hire ATP-rated pilots..........

It's not hard imacdog!! All they need to do is make hiring mins equal to the ATP mins, and stick w/ them. I was hired at ACA w/ 2600 hrs and no ATP (met all requirements), but couldnt afford the couple thosands of dollars to get it.

 

[NoJoy]

As a Captain I have flown with my share of fos with hrs between 300-500. Most actually fly ok, but some require more "coaching" than others. I am glad I have my CFI, and have a few years under my belt teaching, because some weeks I do it non-stop. For me flying with someone who has a CFI and or an ATP is an extra bonus, but it does not happen very often. So I think pilots should be hired with an ATP or meet the qualification. Also being a CFI can be a BIG bonus especially when you make CA.