Should an ATP be required for both pilots?

[Superpilot92]

Good deal Superpilot! (I assume you emailed your federal reps, since this is not a "state and local" matter). I wonder how many on this Board understand the window of opportunity that exists this week to help ourselves with a timely letter to Congress, but instead just want to whine here on Flightinfo.

Yeah i was referring to my Federal reps. I should have left out the state and local part I was just trying to make sure everyone knew to email their own reps. Everyone should be emailing their reps also. Whining about it on here wont get anything done.

 

[NuGuy]

Thats EXACTLY what needs to happen. I emailed my state and local reps about this a couple days ago. Imagine that, requiring pilots to have a *GASP* Airline Transport Pilot rating to fly as an Airline Pilot. Crazy i know The airlines can now just hire anyone they want often without even a sim evaluation just to get a warm body to fill a required seat. Force them to hire people with an ATP, people who have shown they can fly to Airline Transport Pilot standards (i know another gasp) then the airlines will have to raise pay to attract actual qualified pilots. That would also help get rid of alot of the zero to hero pilot factories. This absolutely needs to be what happens.

Heyas Super,

While we are at it, we should raise the TT requirement for CFIs beyond that for a commerical ticket as well. You should have SOME experience before you start signing off newbies, but that's an argument for another time.

I like the ATP requirement for new hires. In the past, the industry was self-regulating...mainly due to a hold-over of principals from the regulated era. Mainlines still flew the vast majority of the RPMs, and THEY had strict requirements. It was still the "golden ring".

The result was that there were always EXPERIENCED pilots looking to get on at the commuters, so they also had tight requirements. When I got hired at Henson, I had 3000TT, with 1400 scheduled, 135 turbine, and I was one of the low time guys in class. You had to pay your dues at every step. Instruct, cargo, charter, etc...

BTW, anyone who thinks that a 300TT civilian guy is as competent as a 300TT military guy, or a 1500TT civilian guy is feeding you a line of brainwashed hooey. And for those who chant "well, they hired 300 hour guys in the 60's"....sure, but those guys got hired as FLIGHT ENGINEERS, and sat there for a couple years being watched closely.

Now you are seeing the financial fallout in the industry coming home to roost. The mainline jobs, while still relatively decent, are no longer the lottery ticket they once were, so the interest downstream has also fallen off. When the expansion of the regionals, coupled with the crappy QoL/Pay led to a LACK of applicants, they had to drive hiring requirements down to a wet commerical and a pulse. Except now these guys are not riding sideways for a few years under the supervision of a major airline training program, but are being turned loose with captains with barely more experience than themselves.

Since the industry cannot or will not self-regulate any longer, then it's time to impose a minimum. The really interesting thing will be the unintended consequences (and there ALWAYS is). IMHO, in the current envrionment, you will be unable to find the number of ATP pilots needed, even with higher pay, because there simply will not be the bodies. To go from 250 hours to 1500 hours CFIing is going to take a LOT of time, magnified by all the additional people trying to teach. Sure, you can pay for it, but that's REALLY expensive, and number people is already getting reduced by the expense of flying. Fly frieght! Sure! Too bad Air21 nuked the cancelled check business, and there are only so many urine samples to fly.

The regionals will be FORCED to hang onto the people they have, otherwise they'll simply collapse (a good thing). When they start paying more for their pilots, the other employee groups will say "me too!", and their costs will skyrocket, and sooner or later the mainline partner will say "hey, we can do it ourselves cheaper, and have a better product", and simply let the contracts lapse, to whatever extent they can't get out of them for bad performance (also a good thing).

I really hope they make this a requirement, because of all the trouble it will cause for the regionals. And trouble is fun to watch, as long as it's not your trouble...now where is my popcorn and beer?

Nu

 

[Way2Broke]

Poll added

 

[deadstick]

IMO, if an ATP becomes mandatory for flying 121 I think the minimum experience for Part 135 non-passenger operations (ie freight) needs to be reduced to 750 hours, in order to give pilots a better avenue of achieving the experience that will make them better, more knowledgeable, more experienced airline crewmembers.

For VFR it's 500 already AND Flight Express was hiring VFR PICS awhile back.

On another point, let's say ATP becomes the min. What about all the FO's who do not meet the requirements (age, TT, or PIC time)? Are they grandfathered in? Some might not have flown much after getting hired with 300-500TT, spent a ton of time on reserve or furlough.

So,what happens?

 

[Andy Neill]

For VFR it's 500 already AND Flight Express was hiring VFR PICS awhile back.

On another point, let's say ATP becomes the min. What about all the FO's who do not meet the requirements (age, TT, or PIC time)? Are they grandfathered in? Some might not have flown much after getting hired with 300-500TT, spent a ton of time on reserve or furlough.

So,what happens?

Yes, they're grandfathered, but......they have to be paired with a captain over age 60.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

For VFR it's 500 already AND Flight Express was hiring VFR PICS awhile back.

On another point, let's say ATP becomes the min. What about all the FO's who do not meet the requirements (age, TT, or PIC time)? Are they grandfathered in? Some might not have flown much after getting hired with 300-500TT, spent a ton of time on reserve or furlough.

So,what happens?

Simple, they convert the SIC type to PIC type with the Feds observing, oral and sim. Give the operators 1 year to comply.Problem solved! Next!
PBR

 

[NuGuy]

For VFR it's 500 already AND Flight Express was hiring VFR PICS awhile back.

On another point, let's say ATP becomes the min. What about all the FO's who do not meet the requirements (age, TT, or PIC time)? Are they grandfathered in? Some might not have flown much after getting hired with 300-500TT, spent a ton of time on reserve or furlough.

So,what happens?

My guess is some kind of "Enhanced Observation Program" like FedEx has (or had) until they meet the minimum. Perhaps being forced to fly with LOE captains.

Or, worse, being put on LOA until they DO meet the requirements.

Bad things are afoot when congress gets involved (age 65, quod erat demonstrandum).

Nu

 

[cjdriver]

An airline pilot without an Airline Transport Pilot rating is insane. If the public knew only one of their two required "airline pilots" was a certified Airline Transport Pilot, they would freak. This is just corporate America getting by with less regulation in order to enhance their bottom line. Big business rules, citizens pay.

 

[RJLoser]

I posted this under a different thread, I think it fits all threads on this topic:

NOTHING IS GOING TO CHANGE. The dollar runs the show in this business and just as everything else in our industry this will be forgotten and pushed to the wayside. I hope to be wrong. I would love to eat my words.

 

[AC560]

Simple, they convert the SIC type to PIC type with the Feds observing, oral and sim. Give the operators 1 year to comply.Problem solved! Next!
PBR

Why stop there, why shouldn't the Fed's observe or better yet give you your next check?