Should an ATP be required for both pilots?

[BoilerUP]

I can name someone who got hired at Colgan with 650 hours. How did that work out for those passengers? What about the inexperienced-when-hired Pinnacle pilots - what did that poor RJ ever do to them that deserved melting both engines while they played cowboy at FL410?

Tragic events no doubt...both caused by inattention and lack of basic airmanship, not the amount of hours in their logbook. After all, how many hours did that Colgan pilot hired at 650 hours have when they perished in a crash?

How many hours did the Comair pilots who took off from the wrong runway have?

How many hours did the Gulfstream III pilots in Houston & Aspen have when the crashed short of the runway? Or the Challenger crew that overran in TEB or the Challenger crew that didn't deice in Montrose?

How many hours did the Shuttle America crew that busted minimums and landed on a too-short runway in the middle of a snowstorm have?

How about the NWA crew that landed an Airbus at Ellsworth AFB instead of RAP (thankfully no metal was scratched in that one)?

---

Look, I know what you're driving at, and I don't disagree with what you're saying about airline pilots holding an ATP even though I didn't have enough hours when I was hired by a regional airline.

But let's call a spade a spade - its not like airplanes crewed by sub-1500hr FOs have been or are falling out of the sky and its not like a pilot with 1400 hours is inheirently any less safe than a pilot with 1501 hours and a temporary ATP certificate. Outside of FLG3701, I don't think there have been any accidents that one can easily attribute to a lack of experience (although I still think that one is much more due to gross negligence).

Its completely reasonable that airline pilots be required to hold an Airline Transport Pilot certificate before flying 121 operations...but let's not mix the desire to increase experience in the cockpit with the desire many here have voiced of curtailing pilot supply and therefore leading to higher pilot salaries.

 

[imacdog]

You don't think the Colgan accident was attributed to lack of experience? How much experience in recovering from actual stalls do you think that former GIA captain had? Is pull back on the stick and snapping the plane into a spin something a former CFI would do? How about the low time FO not noticing the decaying speed and lack of assertiveness in bringing that to the attention of the captain? While it's true that airplanes crewed with inexperienced pilots are not falling out of the sky every day, a very disproportionate number of recent airline accidents are caused by less experienced crews. Regionals have been hiring pilots with 1,000 hours and less for some time now; I think we owe it to the public to do something about that.

I don't give a crap about raising regional pilot pay. All I want to do is not die when I ride around in the back of a regional airliner. Do you think my chances of staying alive are better with more experienced pilots, or less experienced pilots?

 

[rustypigeon]

...but let's not mix the desire to increase experience in the cockpit with the desire many here have voiced of curtailing pilot supply and therefore leading to higher pilot salaries.

Why not help fix both problems with one rule?

 

[BoilerUP]

No, I don't think the Colgan accident was due to a lack of experience; I think it was due to a series of mistakes and poor airmanship. After all, despite his two 121 training failures Capt. Renslow had been a SF340 captain prior to flying the Q400. While new to the airplane, it wasn't his first time being in command.

As far as FO Shaw, she met the requirements to hold an ATP at the time of the accident but did not have one. By your definition of minimal level of experience acceptable for a 121 cockpit, she had enough on that fateful evening. She didn't miss the airspeed because she wasn't experienced or didn't hold an ATP; she missed the airspeed because she was inattentive to WTF was going on. Regardless of her background and experience, I trust Colgan trains their PNF to monitor airspeed while on approach and make the appropriate calls and for whatever reason it didn't happen.

Again, I don't disagree with your proposal, but I don't follow the logic of you or anybody else who points to this crash and says SEE! WE NEED TO REQUIRE AN ATP FOR SAFETY. An ATP means somebody has 1500tt and 500 hours of XC and can fly to a minimal standard - nothing more. Is it more than currently required? Yes. Do I think it is reasonable to require airline pilots to have an ATP? Yes. Do I think this is remotely a factor in the Colgan accident, or would have prevented it? Absolutely not. An ATP does not provide insurance against making a bad decision, mishandling an airplane, or performing a stupid pilot trick.

 

[imacdog]

Do you think those pilots would have learned better airmanship if they had flown more, and demonstrated their abilities to an ATP level, before getting hired at Colgan? I would prefer that pilots learn basic airmanship before flying my ass around, if you don't feel that way then that's cool and we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[BoilerUP]

Do you think those pilots would have learned better airmanship if they had flown more, and demonstrated their abilities to an ATP level, before getting hired at Colgan?

Not necessarily.

They had to demonstrate their abilities to an ATP level to pass their training while going through training AT Colgan. Obviously CA Renslow did not perform to this standard on his initial BE1900 SIC check and his initial SF340 type ride, but subsequently had including his Q400 training.

FO Shaw had 1600 hours when hired by Colgan (at least that's what I read she said in the CVR transcript), so AGAIN, she'd met your minimum experience requirements sans having taken a checkride.

I would prefer that pilots learn basic airmanship before flying my ass around

Me too...the difference is you seem to think having passed a checkride which can be obtained with a single's day prep automatically makes one a better, safer pilot and I do not.

Even having mastered basic airmanship, and even with an ATP, one still is not immune from a mistake, boneheaded move, stupid pilot trick, mishandling of an airplane. If you have an ATP will you be less apt to do those things? Maybe...maybe not.

if you don't feel that way then that's cool and we'll have to agree to disagree.

I don't think we're quite as far apart in our thinking as you seem to think...

 

[Metro752]

Maybe they will require an ATP to fly the E-190 HEAVY at Republic.

 

[imacdog]

FO Shaw had 1600 hours when hired by Colgan (at least that's what I read she said in the CVR transcript), so AGAIN, she'd met your minimum experience requirements sans having taken a checkride.

We don't know if she met the requirements of the ATP beyond the 1500 hour total time requirement. I'm also not saying that both pilots having ATPs would have prevented the Colgan accident - but you can't deny that requiring airlines to hire people with more experience, and having already demonstrated their abilities to ATP standards, will increase safety to the general public. I know I sure as hell learned a lot about flying while working my way up to the ATP standards and requirements, and those who bypass building that experience and going straight into riding shotgun on an RJ or turboprop are simply not as experienced aviators as those who did build their experience first. Increased wages as a result of thinning the pilot applicant pool to ATP-holders only is not my concern, only safety.

 

[say again]

Gaining an ATP doesnt make one a better pilot. It's the experience in the cockpit that makes one a better, safer pilot. So no, I don't think both pilots should have to be ATP rated. I do believe they should have more experience than a few hundred hrs though.

 

[imacdog]

And how do you require that? Require airlines to hire ATP-rated pilots..........