Should an ATP be required for both pilots?

[ultrarunner]

ATP for 121 ops...

And my view is everyone should have an ATP...it stands for AIRLINE transport pilot....the title should match who uses it.....

I agree RedDog.

Think of it this way. If 121 operators can't be held to the ATP standard for hiring, they can then drop down to the next lowest level that meets the FAA requirement. And that's a Commercial/Instrument/ME, and folks can get that with, what, 250 hours total time???

This was a long time coming...and I'll be glad to see it pass.

As a bonus, some of the pilot-mill rip-off outfits will go bye-bye...also a good thing! Imagine a world with no Gulfstream Academy! Ahhhhh....that'll be a happy day!

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

They can hire guys without a Commercial. You can get a commercial with as low as about 188 hours total time.

cliff
NBO

 

[bahumba]

YES!!!!!!!! Right on RedDogC130 that's the truth

Originally Posted by RedDogC130
And my view is everyone should have an ATP...it stands for AIRLINE transport pilot....the title should match who uses it.....

 

[CessnaFan]

I don't have one, but I do think that you should if you fly 121.

This debate will break to guys with ATPs saying yes you should, and guys with out them saying no you shouldn't.

 

[Wooly]

I haven't read the past 18 pages to cover all replies, but I ate ramen noodles with the rest of my fellow bretheren flight instructing to get my IFR 135 mins and then "busted a hump" to put it mildly doing 135 check hauling WELL PAST ATP mins earning $1500 mo. as a contract employee(for all you youngn's, look at what that involves, paying"FICA" etc.) during the 90's.(air whisky and AE wanted 2500t 500 turb multi to start with if I recall correctly) If you are "LUCKY" enough to have foregone this rite of passage and still have gained some VALUABLE flight time then I am at a loss of words to tell you what you missed(speaking from my own experience) As much as I hated the IFR 135 mins and ATP mins(at that time keeping me from an AIRLINE job/compared to the current mins), I would say that the bare minimum for an IFR Comm license should be ATP standards. Don't get me wrong, I have had some very low time FO's when I was a CA at a regional that were exceptional pilots for the amount of time they had, but the real world experience was definitely lacking due to no fault but their own lack of flight time. I know check hauling is becoming a relic, but flying hard IFR as a CFI (within your comfort zone/good judgement/legal mins etc.)or flying banners, getting a good corp. job, "mixing it up" with different experience etc. goes a long way and the higher mins will only help with raising the bar to get better pay and weed out the "daddy's money" pilots (it took me 10 years to pay off my student loans @ 8%) and others that have the "instant gratification syndrome" (it took me 12 yrs to reach a major/some may take longer, some may take less especially due to age 65) but the journey is what you make/learn of it. No flame intended!

 

[Tarzan]

Don't get me wrong, I have had some very low time FO's when I was a CA at a regional that were exceptional pilots for the amount of time they had, but the real world experience was definitely lacking due to no fault but their own lack of flight time.

That is the problem with those who don't see the line flying. All they see is the new hires going through training with little problem. They can fly the heck out of the sim but once on line, they struggle with basic communication and flying visual approaches. Experience is experience. You can't change that no matter how much sim time you have.

 

[brokeflyer]

yes to both having the ATP WITH a MINIMUM of 1500 TT to get hired. this hiring with 251 hours bullsh1t is gotta stop.

 

[Wooly]

That is the problem with those who don't see the line flying. All they see is the new hires going through training with little problem. They can fly the heck out of the sim but once on line, they struggle with basic communication and flying visual approaches. Experience is experience. You can't change that no matter how much sim time you have.

sorry, I meant to say I was a plain ol' Captain not a Check Airman CA/OE Captain. Most low time pilots did well until the workload increased due to bad wx, keeping your speed up in NYC airspace and trying to configure/maintain a stabilized descent profile, etc. I recall one rare exception with a new FO who had about 400- 500 TT and was a "natural". Later that year he earned an A-10 flight slot. He was a real nice guy and very modest about his abilities and this was the consensus amongst all the Captains I spoke to as well.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

this hiring with 251 hours bullsh1t is gotta stop.

Or hiring with 188 hours.

Or with only a PPL and Instrument Rating...no CPL at all.

cliff
GRB

 

[lookin4better]

An ATP is really nothing... I think it should be mandatory.

- 1500 hours and 250 PIC ( of course other small things to be met ) ..... but really... 1500 hours? Less than 2 years of instructing could manage that.... what happend to working for something? Some kids just want the rating and think they should have companies knockign down the door. I suppose I would not have been much different at that age though to be honest.

- Some people just need to be patient, flight instruct until they have the ATP mins then take the test instead of insisting to fly a jet with a little over 300 hours total time. Be patient, get some experience and relax. Even at 1500 hours the expereince level is very low. That being said, a 10,000 hour pilot can screw up just as easy.

 

[RedDogC130]

That being said, a 10,000 hour pilot can screw up just as easy.

The difference is that "most of the time" the 10,000 hour pilot can probably realize he/she screwed up and try to fix it or just ask for help...the low time wonder wannabee has no clue he/she is fcking up which is scary.

 

[CherryBomb]

The difference is that "most of the time" the 10,000 hour pilot can probably realize he/she screwed up and try to fix it or just ask for help...the low time wonder wannabee has no clue he/she is fcking up which is scary.

EXACTLY, Good point...

 

[ubpilot]

Not having ATP should be alright, but I do think pilots should have their minimum time for ATP inorder to fly for an airline though.