Should an ATP be required for both pilots?

[PBRstreetgang]

For VFR it's 500 already AND Flight Express was hiring VFR PICS awhile back.

On another point, let's say ATP becomes the min. What about all the FO's who do not meet the requirements (age, TT, or PIC time)? Are they grandfathered in? Some might not have flown much after getting hired with 300-500TT, spent a ton of time on reserve or furlough.

So,what happens?

Simple, they convert the SIC type to PIC type with the Feds observing, oral and sim. Give the operators 1 year to comply.Problem solved! Next!
PBR

 

[NuGuy]

For VFR it's 500 already AND Flight Express was hiring VFR PICS awhile back.

On another point, let's say ATP becomes the min. What about all the FO's who do not meet the requirements (age, TT, or PIC time)? Are they grandfathered in? Some might not have flown much after getting hired with 300-500TT, spent a ton of time on reserve or furlough.

So,what happens?

My guess is some kind of "Enhanced Observation Program" like FedEx has (or had) until they meet the minimum. Perhaps being forced to fly with LOE captains.

Or, worse, being put on LOA until they DO meet the requirements.

Bad things are afoot when congress gets involved (age 65, quod erat demonstrandum).

Nu

 

[cjdriver]

An airline pilot without an Airline Transport Pilot rating is insane. If the public knew only one of their two required "airline pilots" was a certified Airline Transport Pilot, they would freak. This is just corporate America getting by with less regulation in order to enhance their bottom line. Big business rules, citizens pay.

 

[RJLoser]

I posted this under a different thread, I think it fits all threads on this topic:

NOTHING IS GOING TO CHANGE. The dollar runs the show in this business and just as everything else in our industry this will be forgotten and pushed to the wayside. I hope to be wrong. I would love to eat my words.

 

[AC560]

Simple, they convert the SIC type to PIC type with the Feds observing, oral and sim. Give the operators 1 year to comply.Problem solved! Next!
PBR

Why stop there, why shouldn't the Fed's observe or better yet give you your next check?

 

[BoilerUP]

For VFR it's 500 already AND Flight Express was hiring VFR PICS awhile back.

Yes, and how many freight operations primarily or often do VFR 135? Not many...

Adjust IFR non-passenger 135 minimums down to 750tt if an ATP is required to be an airline pilot in order to give those pilots a better means of obtaining quality experience.

 

[Salukipilot4590]

Definitely as long as the airline gives it to the pilot in the sim along with the SIC type etc...

If it's a blanket "must have ATP" rule then those cert. mills are going to be booming with business...then again money drives all in aviation so I guess thats where it might go...

[/rant]

 

[Flying_Hiker]

Yes, and how many freight operations primarily or often do VFR 135? Not many...

Adjust IFR non-passenger 135 minimums down to 750tt if an ATP is required to be an airline pilot in order to give those pilots a better means of obtaining quality experience.

What's wrong with instructing until you get to 1200? I did it and then flew single pilot 135 for almost 2 years before going to a regional. I certainly don't think that reducing the minimums to be a 135 IFR PIC would be a very good idea. Single pilot 135 flying is significantly more difficult than sitting right seat in a turbo-prop/jet, and I think that one should have a decent amount of experience before jumping into that environment. That being said, I also do believe that one should also have a decent amount of experience before flying 121 as well. I am all for raising the requirements to have an ATP to fly 121.

 

[deadstick]

Yes, they're grandfathered, but......they have to be paired with a captain over age 60.

Oh boy...

Simple, they convert the SIC type to PIC type with the Feds observing, oral and sim. Give the operators 1 year to comply.Problem solved! Next!
PBR

How would that help? THey would still have a commercial with a PIC type? They'd still have to do an ATP ride at some point.

 

[FlyMeSWA]

a 250 hour pilot should not be flying a transport catagory aircraft.

How bout when my buddy at TWA got hired with a Commercial Multi and was flying a Connie and 707 when we would be flying a Beech 1900?

How about someone else at UAL who had a Single Commercial, got hired on the panel of a DC-8, then upgraded to the right seat without ever having a friggin MEL until his checkride on it?

Those are Transport category, they didn't have a problem, and both retired as 747 Line Check Airmen.

Historically, this is NOT a regional problem, or the cause of poor airmanship.

 

[Poahi]

. One cannot make an effective arguement against the fact that a 250 hour pilot should not be flying a transport catagory aircraft.

One cannot make an effective argument against the fact that a 1,500 hour pilot should not be flying as pilot in command in an airline environment.

 

[rustypigeon]

One cannot make an effective argument against the fact that a 1,500 hour pilot should not be flying as pilot in command in an airline environment.

I agree. It would not be a bad idea to increase the requirements for an ATP.

 

[BoilerUP]

What's wrong with instructing until you get to 1200? I did it and then flew single pilot 135 for almost 2 years before going to a regional.

With all due respect to your career progression, just because you (and thousands of others) did it that way doesn't mean its the best or only way for one to go.

Having nearly a thousand hours of dual given myself, one reaches a point of minimal "experience" gained in proportion to the hours of dual given beyond a certain point; I'd say 500 hours. By that point, you've already had people try to kill you dozens of times over, already taken the airplane away from people, already made plenty of PIC decisions; after that point IMO most instructors are simply logging the same hour time after time after time. Is that really the kind of experience that provides value in an airline cockpit?

 

[CA1900]

As a great, Soouthen poet once said, "Get 'er dun!"

You do know he's from Nebraska and the southern redneck thing is all an act, right? :laugh:

 

[imacdog]

For VFR it's 500 already AND Flight Express was hiring VFR PICS awhile back.

On another point, let's say ATP becomes the min. What about all the FO's who do not meet the requirements (age, TT, or PIC time)? Are they grandfathered in? Some might not have flown much after getting hired with 300-500TT, spent a ton of time on reserve or furlough.

So,what happens?

That would be very easy to handle via a transition period where all current 121 FOs will be given a certain time frame to get the ATP minimums and pass the checkride. Something like three years would give all 121 pilots the chance to meet those requirements.