SHHHH this was supposed to be a secret!!!!!!!!!

[OzBushWhacker]

Cadet programs

I know that in many cadet programs, i.e Qantas. The cadets have to go out and get 2 yrs industry experience flying right seat of t-prop before they get to line and even then its in the back of 747.

 

[Capi_Cafre']

I know that in many cadet programs, i.e Qantas. The cadets have to go out and get 2 yrs industry experience flying right seat of t-prop before they get to line and even then its in the back of 747.

Here in the Colonies we're increasingly relying on a combination of automation, pure dumb luck & Captains' survival instincts to get our "cadets" up to speed.

 

[Say Again Over]

Its a different type of flying

Please tell me how much you know about the flying over here. By the way, in the program here, they are not allowed to move to the left seat until they are 34 years old, by that time they have about ten years of experience,

 

[enuffalready]

What A Load Of Crap This is...

I can tell you a story of a high time AIRTRAN captain and an airforce FO that almost put a 717 in the trees in raleigh. The captain kept pulling back the auto-throttles on go around and the super superior airforce FO sat on his hands as they somehow barely made it around at tree top level. The entire thing watched by the tower thinking there where going to stall at any second. The captain was fired, the air force FO was kept because of... get his.... this inexperience :laugh: . Had that happened at comair, asa, or express jet you would all be making ipod jokes.

I have jumpseated on many delta flights back to florida and have had more than one time of getting off the plane and thinking WTF...

Point is... there are turds at every airline and unfortunately we promote and hire based on seniority instead of skill.

 

[flyer172r]

In general do your schedulers avoid pairing low-time Capts and F/Os together? I mean beyond the FAA regs?

No. As long as it's legal they'll do what they need to in order to get the flight out.

 

[DiverDriver]

Citing high time pilots making mistakes as proof that there is no argument that low time pilots can cause accidents is not a valid comparison. The reason for the pilot deviation/accident will be different. Lack of knowledge is one reason for errors. Arogance/complacency another.

We MUST still address the low experience problem AND other high time pilot problems. It's a dynamic/complex problem this human factors thing.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

The JAA (Europe, which has the toughest standards) is currently reviewing their testing and training program. They are going to make it easier and quicker to get a commerical license, because they have to. They don't have enough pilots, and the shortage is gettting worse.

They also set up an Age 70 committee last year, to study changing the age.

cliff
YIP

 

[SKYWRJGUY]

Ah...

I would venture to say judgement and decision-making quality are the best bets for avoiding costly mistakes, all other things being equal. However, as far as a I know, I don't think there are any psychometrically valid tests for predicting that kind of stuff, which is why airlines default to less than reliable predictors such as IQ, personality type, etc.

 

[WSurf]

Point is... there are turds at every airline and unfortunately we promote and hire based on seniority instead of skill.

Very true, however you have to remember these folks passed FAA Checkrides which said they were qualified for that postion.

Bottom line is you can't teach 'Common Sense'. You either have it or you don't.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Experienced at failing, that is...

Captain Rhodes:

Captain Rhodes received a Notice of Disapproval following his FAA checkride for a certified flight instructor (CFI) certificate, airplane multi-engine, in 1995. He received a second Notice of Disapproval following his FAA checkride for that same certificate on September 4, 1995.

Captain Rhodes received a Notice of Disapproval following his FAA checkride for a CFI certificate, instrument airplane, on October 29, 1995.

Captain Rhodes failed his initial BA-4100 first officer oral at Trans States Airlines on September 25, 1998. On that same date, he failed his initial BA-4100 first officer simulator checkride.…..On May 3, 2000, he received a termination letter from the flight manager at Trans States Airlines.

He received a Notice of Disapproval following his FAA checkride for an airline transport certificate (ATP) and BE-1900 type rating on May 16, 2000.

 

[regionaltard]

Experienced at failing that is...

Fortunately the dude had access to Regional Jet Standards Certification Training and a guaranteed interview, otherwise the whole airline pilot thing might not have worked out for him.

 

[trainer8]

Very true, however you have to remember these folks passed FAA Checkrides which said they were qualified for that postion.

Bottom line is you can't teach 'Common Sense'. You either have it or you don't.

You can't teach experience, either. If you look through these regional airline ASAP submissions, the trend is incidents that are caused by inexperience, i.e., aircraft operations (i.e., system/aircraft knowlwdge), runways incursions, altitude deviations, clearence deviations, etc.

The guys I'm training often have never been above 160 KIAS, never above 10,000', never operated a pressurized aircraft, never above 250 KIAS and never in the high flight levels, with an good understanding of high altitude aerodynamics. They learn quickly, but where you really see it is in judgement and experience. They just haven't been exposed to it. And they are upgrading in 2-3 years with the same caliber of new hire in the right seat.

T8

 

[BoilerUP]

You can't teach experience, either. If you look through these regional airline ASAP submissions, the trend is incidents that are caused by inexperience, i.e., aircraft operations (i.e., system/aircraft knowlwdge), runways incursions, altitude deviations, clearence deviations, etc.

I'd guess you see EXACTLY the same kind of ASAP reports from experienced US Airways pilots also...

 

[Amish RakeFight]

I'd guess you see EXACTLY the same kind of ASAP reports from experienced US Airways pilots also...

Yes. They're called mistakes and thats what ASAP is for. We are humans and mistakes happen at every level. The system is designed to detect trends and implent regulatory policy so that common hazards may be reduced or eliminated. It is too simplisitc to say that ASAPs are inordinately filled out by low time regional pilots.

 

[BoilerUP]

Yes. They're called mistakes and thats what ASAP is for. We are humans and mistakes happen at every level. The system is designed to detect trends and implent regulatory policy so that common hazards may be reduced or eliminated. It is too simplisitc to say that ASAPs are inordinately filled out by low time regional pilots.

My point exactly.

 

[Poahi]

What regionals have ASAP? I'd think that would be a just a few....

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Just last month we (the industry) had a new regional capt on a very heavily automated airplane have to make 4 tries to get into an airport.....VFR Wx was clear and 10 miles with light wind and he missed three times before managing to figure out how to get the thing on the ground. The F/O was a newbie.

I think that we are going to start seeing smoking holes unless the industry stops the current hiring practices.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Just last month we (the industry) had a new regional capt on a very heavily automated airplane have to make 4 tries to get into an airport.....VFR Wx was clear and 10 miles with light wind and he missed three times before managing to figure out how to get the thing on the ground. The F/O was a newbie.

I think that we are going to start seeing smoking holes unless the industry stops the current hiring practices.

C'mon. Is that really true?

...if so, I'm astounded. Sounds more like an issue with the training dept. - he shouldn't have been let loose if he can't put it down under those conditions - especially with the abundance of automation.

 

[trainer8]

I'd guess you see EXACTLY the same kind of ASAP reports from experienced US Airways pilots also...

You would...but not 6 ASAPs on just Altitude Deviations in a month, for every month, for the last 6 months.

T8

 

[Say Again Over]

The guys I'm training often have never been above 160 KIAS, never above 10,000', never operated a pressurized aircraft, never above 250 KIAS and never in the high flight levels, with an good understanding of high altitude aerodynamics. They learn quickly, but where you really see it is in judgement and experience. They just haven't been exposed to it. And they are upgrading in 2-3 years with the same caliber of new hire in the right seat.

It's funny you mention that, last month I was flying along and noticed the FO gettting all giddy, I asked him what was up, he told me he had never been to FL390 before, on another flight the FO saw me go through the QRH to do some balancing, he had never seen anyone balance fuel before!

 

[Mach 80]

At least if you could get some of the newer guys to quit saying "....WITH YOU...." to center it would at least help with the appearance of inexperience.

 

[Say Again Over]

At least if you could get some of the newer guys to quit saying "....WITH YOU...." to center it would at least help with the appearance of inexperience.

Ha ha, where I operate, that's the least of their worries, they think nothing of completely blocking off their windscreen at 5000 ft in the climb. What could go wrong?

 

[trainer8]

What regionals have ASAP? I'd think that would be a just a few....

PDT, PSA, COEX, SA, RPA, CHQ....

T8

 

[trainer8]

Just last month we (the industry) had a new regional capt on a very heavily automated airplane have to make 4 tries to get into an airport.....VFR Wx was clear and 10 miles with light wind and he missed three times before managing to figure out how to get the thing on the ground. The F/O was a newbie.

I think that we are going to start seeing smoking holes unless the industry stops the current hiring practices.

Actually, your not far off the mark. Executing the approach when cleared for a "visual approach" seems to be the most challenging. Most of the new hires and upgrades can fly an ILS or GPS approach, but turn them loose on their own to execute a visual requires planing (3 to 1 rule) and a good approach brief to let the PM know the PF's intentions.

Throw in convective or low IFR weather, fuel management, a possible diversion, and little or no experience as a PIC or new FO...this is what the general public doesn't know.

Fortunately, we don't do NDB appraches anymore. (I thought they were fun and challenging, but I digress). "Back in the day" we had to do them and we trained hard for them, but, wow, I can't imagine... what, trying to explain an RMI and, well, you know what I mean. These guys are task saturated now at 200 KIAS...

A good PM with good situational awareness will recognize when the PF is getting behind, but now, with less experienced crews, we are seeing that both crewmembers are getting behind.

I've seen two CA's blow visual approaches just this this past month because they planned the approach poorly and poorly briefed the PM.

That trend is apparent, and the FAA knows about it. So do the Flight departments. However, this is where we are as an industry. Payscales are so low that not many are interested in a career in aviation after laying out $30K-100K to get a 4 year degree.

The airline I work for is hiring CFI/II's and Commercial Pilots right out of flight schools and college and FBO's. The major carriers will hire from the regionals to get the experience they need, which will continue to strain regional carriers to find competent pilots.

The $$$ carriers are now offshore, and they have some extensive hoops to jump through to get hired. Ask anyone interviewing at Emirates right now and ask them about licence conversion and expat country requirements.

India Operators are looking for US pilots and so is China...but there are strings attached. Be sure to get your shots and take your anti-malaria prophylactic.:erm:

This is the cycle we are in.

T8

 

[T-prop]

T-Prop, not really sure where you're coming from, the vast majority of large European airlines have cadet programs in place, they work well, Air Lingus, BA, Qantas. I could be wrong but I think BA's CEO is a former cadet. Take it from the poster below, there is fierce competition to be accepted into the program from the beginning, maybe similar to military aviation training?

Please tell me how much you know about the flying over here. By the way, in the program here, they are not allowed to move to the left seat until they are 34 years old, by that time they have about ten years of experience,

It's funny you mention that, last month I was flying along and noticed the FO gettting all giddy, I asked him what was up, he told me he had never been to FL390 before, on another flight the FO saw me go through the QRH to do some balancing, he had never seen anyone balance fuel before!

Ha ha, where I operate, that's the least of their worries, they think nothing of completely blocking off their windscreen at 5000 ft in the climb. What could go wrong?

Make up your mind.

I think you made my ab initio and low-time argument for me... Thanks.

You praise the effectiveness if the program and you turn around and tell us how weak your FO's are.

a WTF?!?! is in order

 

[T-prop]

Say Again,

Regardless, of how much training your company gives an ab initio whiz kid, or how long they sit right seat, they will never have 1/5 the knowledge and experience you had before you started sitting in the left seat of an A320.

 

[Captzaahlie]

What regionals have ASAP? I'd think that would be a just a few....

Which regionals training is under an FAA approved AQP program?

Let me know when you give up on this brain teaser...... cause I think there is still only one.

 

[Mach 80]

If these guys would quit saying ".....with you...." to ATC, at least they'd SOUND more experienced.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

If these guys would quit saying ".....with you...." to ATC, at least they'd SOUND more experienced.

Back on the "with you" diatribe, eh?

 

[CutEmUp]

Which regionals training is under an FAA approved AQP program?

Let me know when you give up on this brain teaser...... cause I think there is still only one.

"We’re [Piedmont] the only regional that trains
pilots using AQP (Advanced Qualification Program). It is labor intensive and it’s expensive, but it’s a better program. It gives us a tremendous amount of clout with the FAA."

Do they really expect anyone to believe that it isn't the cheapest way they can get pilots through training? Explain to me how having less classroom and sim time equates to more expensive.