SHHHH this was supposed to be a secret!!!!!!!!!

[medfly]

Great

That was freaken great Maybe Oprah will do a show about it...

 

[Say Again Over]

T-Prop, not really sure where you're coming from, the vast majority of large European airlines have cadet programs in place, they work well, Air Lingus, BA, Qantas. I could be wrong but I think BA's CEO is a former cadet. Take it from the poster below, there is fierce competition to be accepted into the program from the beginning, maybe similar to military aviation training?

Having instructed for one of those places I can tell you there is no comparison. Their selection process of who gets accepted (no, a credit check is not the criteria). Here it's anyone who can pay gets accepted to train. And the "customer card" doesn't work in their schools. The training is done by experienced (that is, former jet pilots) and run by airlines, not investment groups. No comparison.

 

[Poahi]

The PCL CA never touched a jet at his former airline.

This is a matter of cause and effect. The PCL Captain had plenty of experience and the crash was primarily caused by extremely poor judgement, not by lack of jet time.

If the argument is going to be made that 250 hour pilots are the problem, then point to examples that support that thesis.

And here's another thing. If the regional airline captains aren't remanding the substandard FO's back to training, then its time to look at line standards and take corrective action.

Remember, the regional's insurance carriers are allowing the current experience levels and they have actual money on the line. PNCL's insurance company has no hard jet time requirement.

 

[CitationUltra]

This is not a valid comparison.


There is a big difference between a true ab initio training program and regional airlines hiring traffic watch pilots, training them to pass a video game checkride and turning them loose after 25 hours IOE

Very well put. Not to mention the JAA testing requirements.

 

[T-prop]

T-Prop, not really sure where you're coming from, the vast majority of large European airlines have cadet programs in place, they work well, Air Lingus, BA, Qantas. I could be wrong but I think BA's CEO is a former cadet. Take it from the poster below, there is fierce competition to be accepted into the program from the beginning, maybe similar to military aviation training?

Where I'm coming from is that accident and others over there that are similar.

You mention Asia's ab initio program. I met an instructor that flew in China for a gov't ab initio program. Their student pilots have to fly back and forth on an airway to do all of their maneuvers. No deviation is allowed. No VFR flying is allowed. Great way to learn how to deviate for weather, practice lost procedures, unusual attitudes, you know, learn basic pilot skills...

But that's OK, because they have to have an IQ of 180 just to be competitive for the program.

Wasn't BA the airline that flew a 747 on 3 engines across the US and Atlantic? Management made the decision for the CA to continue. He clicked his heels and of course, they ended up short...

Moving on,

There is NO substitute for experience; ab initio or otherwise.

Passing a 121 checkride at 300 hrs does not magically grant one the wisdom and experience of 1000 hrs of instructing, flying freight/charter etc.

However, you will see their heads swell. Listen to a typical conversation b/n spike-haired-don't-need-a-razor-mommy-bought-this FO's in ORD.

"Dude, it was off the chain... it was like 200 and a half... it was like wow..."

...then notice their stickers on their flight bags as they walk away.

When the routine of 121 flying leaves it's intended path, the 300 hour wonder turned 1600 hr CA is just starting to learn how to make decisions with 70 pax in the back. His safety-net has 300 hrs. His role-model growing up was a 2,000 hour CA, who talks on his cell-phone through push-back and taxi-out, then plugs his I-pod in during the climb.

 

[Say Again Over]

Yes there are many different forms of experience, which lad has the best experience?? Not real sure if I am qualified to say, where I work they are trained from day one for the ATPL, they skip PPL and CPL, training is in high performance SE's and Seneca's for the ME, a type ride is passed in Toulouse, FR at Airbus, base training IN the actual aircraft before they allowed to observe live flights from the jump seat, then to Singapore for an OPC and then training flights and a check to the line. Almost two years of steady training.

 

[PreContact]

In general do your schedulers avoid pairing low-time Capts and F/Os together? I mean beyond the FAA regs?

 

[TV9Driver]

The problem with citing Asian Ab Initio programs as a comparisons to the US is that Asian airlines have a 400% higher accident/incident rate as North American and European airlines. At least that was the statistic when I took the CRM course 10 years ago.

 

[vectorvictor]

In Europe and Asia it's normal for Ab Initio students to go directly to aircraft such as the A320 with less than 300 total time and less than 100 hours multi-engine time, no big deal, they do just fine.

Its a different type of flying. Try managing the workload going into LGA or flying around CLE in a snowstorm. There is no substitute for experience.

 

[regionaltard]

I've been saying that forever. The ab initio students in Europe are very carefully screened for personality, IQ, and everything else. In the US, I've seen both extremes of the spectrum make it to the line.

Yep, "ability to pay" and "ability to fly" are two very different things.

 

[OzBushWhacker]

Cadet programs

I know that in many cadet programs, i.e Qantas. The cadets have to go out and get 2 yrs industry experience flying right seat of t-prop before they get to line and even then its in the back of 747.

 

[Capi_Cafre']

I know that in many cadet programs, i.e Qantas. The cadets have to go out and get 2 yrs industry experience flying right seat of t-prop before they get to line and even then its in the back of 747.

Here in the Colonies we're increasingly relying on a combination of automation, pure dumb luck & Captains' survival instincts to get our "cadets" up to speed.

 

[Say Again Over]

Its a different type of flying

Please tell me how much you know about the flying over here. By the way, in the program here, they are not allowed to move to the left seat until they are 34 years old, by that time they have about ten years of experience,

 

[enuffalready]

What A Load Of Crap This is...

I can tell you a story of a high time AIRTRAN captain and an airforce FO that almost put a 717 in the trees in raleigh. The captain kept pulling back the auto-throttles on go around and the super superior airforce FO sat on his hands as they somehow barely made it around at tree top level. The entire thing watched by the tower thinking there where going to stall at any second. The captain was fired, the air force FO was kept because of... get his.... this inexperience :laugh: . Had that happened at comair, asa, or express jet you would all be making ipod jokes.

I have jumpseated on many delta flights back to florida and have had more than one time of getting off the plane and thinking WTF...

Point is... there are turds at every airline and unfortunately we promote and hire based on seniority instead of skill.

 

[flyer172r]

In general do your schedulers avoid pairing low-time Capts and F/Os together? I mean beyond the FAA regs?

No. As long as it's legal they'll do what they need to in order to get the flight out.

 

[DiverDriver]

Citing high time pilots making mistakes as proof that there is no argument that low time pilots can cause accidents is not a valid comparison. The reason for the pilot deviation/accident will be different. Lack of knowledge is one reason for errors. Arogance/complacency another.

We MUST still address the low experience problem AND other high time pilot problems. It's a dynamic/complex problem this human factors thing.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

The JAA (Europe, which has the toughest standards) is currently reviewing their testing and training program. They are going to make it easier and quicker to get a commerical license, because they have to. They don't have enough pilots, and the shortage is gettting worse.

They also set up an Age 70 committee last year, to study changing the age.

cliff
YIP

 

[SKYWRJGUY]

Ah...

I would venture to say judgement and decision-making quality are the best bets for avoiding costly mistakes, all other things being equal. However, as far as a I know, I don't think there are any psychometrically valid tests for predicting that kind of stuff, which is why airlines default to less than reliable predictors such as IQ, personality type, etc.

 

[WSurf]

Point is... there are turds at every airline and unfortunately we promote and hire based on seniority instead of skill.

Very true, however you have to remember these folks passed FAA Checkrides which said they were qualified for that postion.

Bottom line is you can't teach 'Common Sense'. You either have it or you don't.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Experienced at failing, that is...

Captain Rhodes:

Captain Rhodes received a Notice of Disapproval following his FAA checkride for a certified flight instructor (CFI) certificate, airplane multi-engine, in 1995. He received a second Notice of Disapproval following his FAA checkride for that same certificate on September 4, 1995.

Captain Rhodes received a Notice of Disapproval following his FAA checkride for a CFI certificate, instrument airplane, on October 29, 1995.

Captain Rhodes failed his initial BA-4100 first officer oral at Trans States Airlines on September 25, 1998. On that same date, he failed his initial BA-4100 first officer simulator checkride.…..On May 3, 2000, he received a termination letter from the flight manager at Trans States Airlines.

He received a Notice of Disapproval following his FAA checkride for an airline transport certificate (ATP) and BE-1900 type rating on May 16, 2000.