Seniority list at the new AA?

[SWA/FO]

Glad General has moved off the AT/SWA threads. Good luck guys.

 

[LiveFreeorDie]

I don't envy the arbitrators...what a cluster

 

[charlie2]

Green;

Thanks for the ask. Anyone can view all of these documents at: www.cactuspilot.com

The documents are arranged on the left hand side. No pass words needed.


CB

Hi Dave,

Hey serious question for you and yours. If (please note that I'm using the word "if") we had stayed ALPA and we were now on our fifth or sixth attempt at ratifying a TA with decent pay and benies but it got voted down once again because it contained the nic would you be happier or angrier?

 

[tailwindz]

The bottom line will be that any arbitrator issuing a "Binding" award is not going to ignore a previous "Binding" award on 2/3 of the same matter. That would be insane.

 

[cactusboy53]

Hi Dave,

Hey serious question for you and yours. If (please note that I'm using the word "if") we had stayed ALPA and we were now on our fifth or sixth attempt at ratifying a TA with decent pay and benies but it got voted down once again because it contained the nic would you be happier or angrier?

In my estimation it would have passed the 2nd to 3rd time with the Nicolau, but that is my opinion. It is your opinion that we would failed to ratify attempts 5 & 6 with the Nicolau. We will never know either way as we have traveled down 5+ years of delay.

Moot point.

 

[General Lee]

Is Delta planning another merger?

I don't know, but I guess anything is possible. The Easties deciding that binding arbitration wasn't right for them does affect us all. It shows you can sign up for something while crossing your fingers behind your back. That is a bad precedent that needs to be squashed, and I think it will.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

The bottom line will be that any arbitrator issuing a "Binding" award is not going to ignore a previous "Binding" award on 2/3 of the same matter. That would be insane.

I agree. And Nic is a well respected arbitrator. In fact, the East MEC chair agreed to have him as the arbitrator in the first place.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[A350]

The process is what is flawed.

The Nic award as it stands is no more palatable to the East crews as it would be to the West if the award went DOH without a single restriction or fence, and a returning furloughee could go out to PHX and bump a CA out of his seat. But somehow, an East pilot who had every expectation of being a widebody CA the last 10 years of his career losing that to a pilot group that didn't have a single widebody on property is OK?

DOH is not a land grab. It is the only way to protect what is the only thing you have in the aviation business at your airline....seniority. Conditions, restrictions, and fences are then used to keep one group from disadvantaging another. I don't recall a single condition or restriction in the NIC award other than the age 60 widebody restriction, which went bye-bye with age 65 retirement.

Implementing the NIC award for the East pilots was career suicide.

General....must be nice to pontificate from your high and mighty perch on DAL's list about how special you must be to be a Delta pilot. Give it a rest buddy. Many pilots only get one shot at this career. They take the job they get. Only by the grace of God do you get to the finish line. A little humility please.

A350

 

[General Lee]

The process is what is flawed.

The Nic award as it stands is no more palatable to the East crews as it would be to the West if the award went DOH without a single restriction or fence, and a returning furloughee could go out to PHX and bump a CA out of his seat. But somehow, an East pilot who had every expectation of being a widebody CA the last 10 years of his career losing that to a pilot group that didn't have a single widebody on property is OK?

DOH is not a land grab. It is the only way to protect what is the only thing you have in the aviation business at your airline....seniority. Conditions, restrictions, and fences are then used to keep one group from disadvantaging another. I don't recall a single condition or restriction in the NIC award other than the age 60 widebody restriction, which went bye-bye with age 65 retirement.

Implementing the NIC award for the East pilots was career suicide.

General....must be nice to pontificate from your high and mighty perch on DAL's list about how special you must be to be a Delta pilot. Give it a rest buddy. Many pilots only get one shot at this career. They take the job they get. Only by the grace of God do you get to the finish line. A little humility please.

A350

It simply doesn't matter. If you sign up for it, that means you agree to the outcome. That's why they call it BINDING arbitration. If it is flawed, don't do it. Both sides agreed to Nicolau, and even he supposedly hinted to the Easties that their DOH wishes weren't going to happen and that they might want to be a bit more reasonable, and apparently they weren't. That thinking is what is flawed.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[xrated]

how long for a newhire at Airways today to get to PHX, assuming all these fences and mumbo jumbo? guesses?

I'd guess a decade....and I'm being honest.

 

[vetrider]

The process is what is flawed.

The Nic award as it stands is no more palatable to the East crews as it would be to the West if the award went DOH without a single restriction or fence, and a returning furloughee could go out to PHX and bump a CA out of his seat. But somehow, an East pilot who had every expectation of being a widebody CA the last 10 years of his career losing that to a pilot group that didn't have a single widebody on property is OK?

DOH is not a land grab. It is the only way to protect what is the only thing you have in the aviation business at your airline....seniority. Conditions, restrictions, and fences are then used to keep one group from disadvantaging another. I don't recall a single condition or restriction in the NIC award other than the age 60 widebody restriction, which went bye-bye with age 65 retirement.

Implementing the NIC award for the East pilots was career suicide.

General....must be nice to pontificate from your high and mighty perch on DAL's list about how special you must be to be a Delta pilot. Give it a rest buddy. Many pilots only get one shot at this career. They take the job they get. Only by the grace of God do you get to the finish line. A little humility please.

A350

The process was just fine. The only thing flawed was the east's subsequent way of 'handling' it. It flies in the face of civilized society, and other than a few sympathizers, the rest of society gets it. The jury made up of our fellow citizens sure didn't have any trouble seeing it for what it is. And contrary to east whining, they got to hear PLENTY of all your 'waa waa waa, it wasn't fair, we had to do this..' bs.

If our pilot groups had been the same size, you wouldn't have had the ability to pull everything you did. You would have been stuck either voting no on the contract until you were blue in the face or finally wised up. Just like what would have been the west's only option had it felt similarily aggrieved.

After what has been done to the west, RICO suits, bs ID theft allegations, and every other heavy handed underhanded activity usapa, why the Hell do you feel like anyone needs to show the east any humility? The east didn't do much to earn it.

 

[xrated]

But somehow, an East pilot who had every expectation of being a widebody CA the last 10 years of his career losing that to a pilot group that didn't have a single widebody on property is OK?

Without America West there wouldn't be any East widebodies, narrowboddies or RJ's!! You say "An East pilot who had every expectation of being a widebody CA the last 10 years of his career"? Really, He expected that??? The last 10 years of his career at UsAirways?? Hell, he didn't have 10 days left!! Is it OK? Hell yes its OK!!

 

[TWA Dude]

The process is what is flawed.

...says everyone who disagrees with the outcome.

Just like before the Nicoalu arbitration I'll say it here: regardless of the outcome of an AA/USA arbitration I'll accept the result. Too bad the Easties and their apologists like you lack the integrity to say the same.

 

[Green]

I will accept it as well. That is unless it's not fair. Then we need to figure out a way to delay until we can get a do over. Integrity matters

 

[A350]

xrated...keep telling yourself that.....

Is that why the LAS hub doesn't exist and the West pilots are flying 25% of the East ASM's? If you "saved" the East, you saved access to the widebodies for your future too.

Both airlines needed it to survive. East needed it then, West needed it later.

A350

 

[A350]

TWA:

That is really easy to say when you didn't lose a thing in the integration.

I am 100% sure that if Nic gave the East pilots DOH with no restrictions, that you would just accept it and do nothing.

A350

 

[A350]

Vetrider:

I was speaking to the General's lack of humility. He may only have one uniform in his closet, but that has nothing to do with who he is or where he came from. He is lucky, that is all.

A350

 

[TWA Dude]

That is really easy to say when you didn't lose a thing in the integration.

I said it right here before the arbitration so you have no right to diminish my integrity.

I am 100% sure that if Nic gave the East pilots DOH with no restrictions, that you would just accept it and do nothing.

And you're 100% full of feces. After enduring the pain of being denied arbitration with AA I was ecstatic at having the opportunity for a fair integration process. I knew the risk and I've proven I have the integrity to live up to my word. And I'll prove it again.

Too bad for you Usapa's days are numbered.

 

[General Lee]

xrated...keep telling yourself that.....

Is that why the LAS hub doesn't exist and the West pilots are flying 25% of the East ASM's? If you "saved" the East, you saved access to the widebodies for your future too.

Both airlines needed it to survive. East needed it then, West needed it later.

A350

Didn't AWA pay the payroll even before the merger was complete because USAir didn't even have enough funds to do that at the end? If so, that is even more proof that US was going DOWN...... To say that BOTH airlines needed it is just your guess, and AWA had enough money to mortgage the airline to buy USAir. That's not a guess. You are grasping for straws.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[cactusboy53]

ARBITRATOR A350 SAYS: The process is what is flawed.

The Nic award as it stands is no more palatable to the East crews as it would be to the West if the award went DOH without a single restriction or fence, and a returning furloughee could go out to PHX and bump a CA out of his seat. But somehow, an East pilot who had every expectation of being a widebody CA the last 10 years of his career losing that to a pilot group that didn't have a single widebody on property is OK?

DOH is not a land grab. It is the only way to protect what is the only thing you have in the aviation business at your airline....seniority. Conditions, restrictions, and fences are then used to keep one group from disadvantaging another. I don't recall a single condition or restriction in the NIC award other than the age 60 widebody restriction, which went bye-bye with age 65 retirement.

Implementing the NIC award for the East pilots was career suicide.

General....must be nice to pontificate from your high and mighty perch on DAL's list about how special you must be to be a Delta pilot. Give it a rest buddy. Many pilots only get one shot at this career. They take the job they get. Only by the grace of God do you get to the finish line. A little humility please.

A350

Sorry Bub, your opinion does not count. Let it go.