Seniority list at the new AA?

[Deadalus]

Not according to the APA statement, and they have more members than USAPA..... Ooooooops! Add the Westies, and that is called a "Majority."



Bye Bye---General Lee

My guess would be relative or some form of ratio with fences for WBs. Are those idiots out east still trying for DOH?

 

[kj6991]

I'm a new-hire. I'm a third-lister. I'm not involved in that fight. Nice try, though. That is, of course, the XJT MEC did something that I'm unaware of.

Where you in the Jan 28 class and former Co-ex?

 

[captfred]

My guess would be relative or some form of ratio with fences for WBs. Are those idiots out east still trying for DOH?

That would be a yes.

 

[General Lee]

My guess would be relative or some form of ratio with fences for WBs. Are those idiots out east still trying for DOH?

I think that is what the APA wants. Here is the statement again:


"We have seen a model for a successfully arbitrated seniority integration at Delta-Northwest using fences and a ratio methodology based on a percentile seniority list ranking. Also, if an American Airlines-US Airways seniority integration were to be arbitrated, our attorneys have indicated that the ongoing seniority dispute between “West” and “East” at US Airways would be settled as part of the process and should not have any negative impact on an arbitrator’s decision under the McCaskill-Bond statute."



Unfortunately for the East guys, I think the NIC award will probably be the list US will HAVE TO USE. It's called binding arbitration. If you accept it, you then should accept the award. Even the last judge seemed to state that.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[charlie2]

The jury is still out on this.....

Since the Nic list would have been part of the JCBA between East and West, and since there never was a JCBA between the two, and the MOU states that any and all contracts and agreements prior to the MOU between APA and USAPA are null and void, it is possible on another starting point.

Of course, the West will sue. The hard part will be figuring out who was harmed and who was not. Lets not forget that 25% of the flying the West does is East flying because the West lost their Vegas hub.

A350

Field Marshall Lee hasn't responded to this. Why?

 

[LearLove]

New AA SLI:
1)America West
2)AA
3)US East
4)Eagle
5)Third Listers

6)Piedmont's PHL bus drivers

7)TWA

That cobus 3000 is one fine machine. Have you seen the size of the drivers cockpit. Is that a biddable position.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrac_Cobus

 

[Jim]

Field Marshall Lee hasn't responded to this. Why?

Because the USAirways East and USAPA lack of integrity affect every airline pilot.

 

[General Lee]

Field Marshall Lee hasn't responded to this. Why?

Charlie,

This is so 3rd Grade. Don't go back on a promise. Your group accepted binding arbitration. When you do that, you have to accept the award. You know that. Quit dancing around the issue. Your group's action will make EVERYONE pause when thinking about this in the future, whether or not the "other guy" will pull a "USAir East" and say "sorry, our fingers were crossed!"


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[charlie2]

Charlie,

This is so 3rd Grade. Don't go back on a promise. Your group accepted binding arbitration. When you do that, you have to accept the award. You know that. Quit dancing around the issue. Your group's action will make EVERYONE pause when thinking about this in the future, whether or not the "other guy" will pull a "USAir East" and say "sorry, our fingers were crossed!"


Bye Bye---General Lee

You still haven't responded to A350.

 

[Carl S.]

AAA pilots still dreaming of a do over since AWA/AAA did not get a JCBA while waiting on AA. The NIC. is still there waiting for a JCBA to go into effect or DFR II is on once again and ripeness will not be an issue this time. The MOU does not give USAPA a free pass to start over once again, LCC is still part of the hybrid DFR claim and the courts should get this settled by years end. The nightmare of USAPA and DOH uber alles will soon be a thing of the past...

 

[sean67]

AAA pilots still dreaming of a do over since AWA/AAA did not get a JCBA while waiting on AA. The NIC. is still there waiting for a JCBA to go into effect or DFR II is on once again and ripeness will not be an issue this time. The MOU does not give USAPA a free pass to start over once again, LCC is still part of the hybrid DFR claim and the courts should get this settled by years end. The nightmare of USAPA and DOH uber alles will soon be a thing of the past...

Keep dreaming tough guy..

 

[TWA Dude]

So you thinks the 3 arbitrators will simply disregard Nicolau's work product? Well, we'll just see who knows what he's talking about.

 

[A350]

TWA:

Nobody is sure.....but since there never was a "consumated" merger between the East and West, the Nic may not be used. You are betting what you have received on the notion that the future arbitrator will use the Nic list as the USAir list in the SLI with AMR. What if it never gets to an arbitrator? Wouldn't you rather have something a little more concrete than "well just see who is right"?

I personally hope it isn't, even though I don't have a dog in the fight. While binding arbitration is binding, the results of the NIC, IMO, did not comply with ALPA merger policy and it should have been tasked by ALPA National to fix the situation. ALPA did nothing because as is typical, they let the pilot groups go at it like a boxing match without a referee, and of course, they don't want to get sued, do they. No one wins when one group gets a windfall and the other uses its majority to not only leave the union, but become enabled to proliferate a never ending series of lawsuits that may never be settled. ALPA's history is littered with this crap. PanAm-National, TWA-Ozark, AMR-TWA.....any of this sound familiar?

A national seniority list should have been implemented by ALPA years ago and DOH is the only way to merge lists. You use conditions and restrictions to make sure pilot groups of wildly differing seniorities and years of service don't screw each other over. You can't stand behind a list of nebulous one liners that is ALPA merger policy. The policy should be black and white and not up to interpretation.

The only saving grace now is that for the short term, merger mania may be over.

A350

 

[General Lee]

TWA:

Nobody is sure.....but since there never was a "consumated" merger between the East and West, the Nic may not be used. You are betting what you have received on the notion that the future arbitrator will use the Nic list as the USAir list in the SLI with AMR. What if it never gets to an arbitrator? Wouldn't you rather have something a little more concrete than "well just see who is right"?

I personally hope it isn't, even though I don't have a dog in the fight. While binding arbitration is binding, the results of the NIC, IMO, did not comply with ALPA merger policy and it should have been tasked by ALPA National to fix the situation. ALPA did nothing because as is typical, they let the pilot groups go at it like a boxing match without a referee, and of course, they don't want to get sued, do they. No one wins when one group gets a windfall and the other uses its majority to not only leave the union, but become enabled to proliferate a never ending series of lawsuits that may never be settled. ALPA's history is littered with this crap. PanAm-National, TWA-Ozark, AMR-TWA.....any of this sound familiar?

A national seniority list should have been implemented by ALPA years ago and DOH is the only way to merge lists. You use conditions and restrictions to make sure pilot groups of wildly differing seniorities and years of service don't screw each other over. You can't stand behind a list of nebulous one liners that is ALPA merger policy. The policy should be black and white and not up to interpretation.

The only saving grace now is that for the short term, merger mania may be over.

A350

Nah.......National seniority list? Heck no. If you chose the wrong airline, that is your fault. If you were forced to go to an airline for some reason, then maybe. But, nobody is forced to go anywhere. You choose the wrong one, you lose.


And as far as the merger "not being consumated", that was USAPA doing that. The NIC award was agreed upon by both sides, and the company, before it was announced. Maybe you didn't see what the last judge said about disregarding the NIC award:

"Of course, in negotiating for a particular seniority regime, USAPA must not breach its duty of fair representation. Accordingly, if USAPA wishes to abandon the Nicolau award and accept the consequences of this course of action, it is free to do so. By discarding the result of a valid arbitration and negotiating for a different seniority regime, USAPA is running the risk that it will be sued by the disadvantaged pilots when the new collective bargaining agreement is finalized. An impartial arbitrator’s decision regarding an appropriate method of seniority integration is powerful evidence of a fair result. Discarding the Nicolau Award places USAPA on dangerous ground."



That doesn't sound good for the East side, but I guess they and everyone else will find out soon.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[cactusboy53]

TWA:

Nobody is sure.....but since there never was a "consumated" merger between the East and West, the Nic may not be used. You are betting what you have received on the notion that the future arbitrator will use the Nic list as the USAir list in the SLI with AMR. What if it never gets to an arbitrator? Wouldn't you rather have something a little more concrete than "well just see who is right"?

I personally hope it isn't, even though I don't have a dog in the fight. While binding arbitration is binding, the results of the NIC, IMO, did not comply with ALPA merger policy and it should have been tasked by ALPA National to fix the situation. ALPA did nothing because as is typical, they let the pilot groups go at it like a boxing match without a referee, and of course, they don't want to get sued, do they. No one wins when one group gets a windfall and the other uses its majority to not only leave the union, but become enabled to proliferate a never ending series of lawsuits that may never be settled. ALPA's history is littered with this crap. PanAm-National, TWA-Ozark, AMR-TWA.....any of this sound familiar?

A national seniority list should have been implemented by ALPA years ago and DOH is the only way to merge lists. You use conditions and restrictions to make sure pilot groups of wildly differing seniorities and years of service don't screw each other over. You can't stand behind a list of nebulous one liners that is ALPA merger policy. The policy should be black and white and not up to interpretation.

The only saving grace now is that for the short term, merger mania may be over.

A350

A350;
On what basis do you say the the Nicolau "did not comply with ALPA merger policy and it should have been tasked by ALPA National to fix the situation"? As you said, IMO.

If that is the case then every arbitration for every facet of life should then be overturned because someone thought it was unfair.

Your opinion doesn't matter. My opinion doesn't matter. What does matter is that both parties agreed to a process. You are wrong. ALPA did something. The process was followed. Much to the chagrin of the US Air pilots, ALPA found NO WRONG DOING or maleficence. Accordingly the list was delivered to the company. The company found that the list comported with it's guidelines (no flush, no bump, etc).

The ONLY reason that there was a joint collective bargaining agreement is because the US Air pilots pulled away from a nearly complete contract. Six years later the continue to seek a do-over.

I don't know how this will start. I don't know how this will finish. You can be assured that the AWA pilots stand on firm legal, ethical and moral grounds. We will not be bullied into the DOH land grab.

The National Seniority list is like the unicorn. Talk of but never been sighted. It will remain just that way. Hoping and wishing for it is a lot like hoping for the Nicolau to go away: Not going to happen.

Since you seem to be interested, but "don't have a dog in the fight"..you might spend your time actually reading the transcripts of the arbitration. Then you can read the transcripts of all the court proceedings that USAPA has forced us to defend. We have been attacked and persecuted. We have had to spend millions in defense of a union that we must fund (to keep our jobs).

After you read and take notes of the transcripts, come on back and tell me how the Nicolau didn't follow ALPA policy (again, your opinion).

CB

 

[Green]

A350;
On what basis do you say the the Nicolau "did not comply with ALPA merger policy and it should have been tasked by ALPA National to fix the situation"? As you said, IMO.

If that is the case then every arbitration for every facet of life should then be overturned because someone thought it was unfair.

Your opinion doesn't matter. My opinion doesn't matter. What does matter is that both parties agreed to a process. You are wrong. ALPA did something. The process was followed. Much to the chagrin of the US Air pilots, ALPA found NO WRONG DOING or maleficence. Accordingly the list was delivered to the company. The company found that the list comported with it's guidelines (no flush, no bump, etc).

The ONLY reason that there was a joint collective bargaining agreement is because the US Air pilots pulled away from a nearly complete contract. Six years later the continue to seek a do-over.

I don't know how this will start. I don't know how this will finish. You can be assured that the AWA pilots stand on firm legal, ethical and moral grounds. We will not be bullied into the DOH land grab.

The National Seniority list is like the unicorn. Talk of but never been sighted. It will remain just that way. Hoping and wishing for it is a lot like hoping for the Nicolau to go away: Not going to happen.

Since you seem to be interested, but "don't have a dog in the fight"..you might spend your time actually reading the transcripts of the arbitration. Then you can read the transcripts of all the court proceedings that USAPA has forced us to defend. We have been attacked and persecuted. We have had to spend millions in defense of a union that we must fund (to keep our jobs).

After you read and take notes of the transcripts, come on back and tell me how the Nicolau didn't follow ALPA policy (again, your opinion).

CB

Very well stated. It's been so long it's easy to forget how things went down. Are the arbitration transcripts public? It would be nice if people could be referred to the actual documents instead of listening to arguments and BS on flight info. If you read the actual transcripts you will see why the NIC makes sense and has been more or less a blueprint for the following mergers. Relative seniority with extra slots for wide body jobs.

 

[TWA Dude]

Nobody is sure.....but since there never was a "consumated" merger between the East and West, the Nic may not be used. You are betting what you have received on the notion that the future arbitrator will use the Nic list as the USAir list in the SLI with AMR.

I'm betting on nothing. I'm anticipating that the arbitrators will do what they've always done and built-upon -- rather than ignored -- the work of previous arbitrators.

What if it never gets to an arbitrator? Wouldn't you rather have something a little more concrete than "well just see who is right"?

You actually think the APA and USAPA could reach a consensual seniority integration? That's funny. Don't forget I'm a member of both unions. Both sides feel entitled to seniority gains out of this. There will be no agreement.

While binding arbitration is binding, the results of the NIC, IMO, did not comply with ALPA merger policy and it should have been tasked by ALPA National to fix the situation.

You need to read ALPA Merger Policy again. I'll even help you:

"The merger representatives shall carefully weigh all the equities inherent in their merger situation. In joint session, the merger representatives should attempt to match equities to various methods of integration until a fair and equitable agreement is reached, keeping in mind the following goals, in no particular order: ..."

In the Nicolau Award the ALPA Merger Policy is quoted and then he states:
"[FONT=&quot]If the Merger Representatives are unable to agree on an [/FONT][FONT=&quot]integrated list, the matter may be referred to Mediation-Arbitration or [/FONT][FONT=&quot]directly to arbitration if the Representatives choose that path. "[/FONT]

I'm not a lawyer but I can read. The ALPA Merger Policy goals were binding on the merger committees. Nicolau wasn't even legally bound by them! He was free to rule as he wished, hence, it's impossible to say he didn't comply. Be that as it may, he obviously felt compelled to follow those goals in conceiving his list and believes he did. Even both pilot neutrals agreed.

ALPA did nothing because as is typical, ...

Blah blah blah, it's all ALPA's fault. Pul-lease. Only one entity is to blame and that's the East pilots. Prater certainly mishandled it. He should've shown some leadership and stated from the get-go that since ALPA Merger Policy had been complied with the list was the list and nothing would change that.

You remind me of a captain I've flown with who makes similarly asinine arguments. We were debating some political point when he lamented that the US Supreme Court wasn't following the Constitution. After informing him that the final authority on the meaning of the Constitution is in fact the Supreme Court I finally got him to concede that he simply disagreed with their opinion. Well, we all know about opinions...

 

[cactusboy53]

Very well stated. It's been so long it's easy to forget how things went down. Are the arbitration transcripts public? It would be nice if people could be referred to the actual documents instead of listening to arguments and BS on flight info. If you read the actual transcripts you will see why the NIC makes sense and has been more or less a blueprint for the following mergers. Relative seniority with extra slots for wide body jobs.

Green;

Thanks for the ask. Anyone can view all of these documents at: www.cactuspilot.com

The documents are arranged on the left hand side. No pass words needed.


CB

 

[doh]

Mom, the meatloaf! Thanks for reminding me of that line. Hilarious. As far as starting a fight, I initially just posted something stated by the APA. Some people want to know what they might be thinking. Some don't want to bring it up, and instead slam. I may be trying to be less offensive, but I still will give my opinions, and I won't be a pushover.


Bye Bye---General Lee

General, nobody thinks you're a pushover! You are a bend over, definitely a catcher! :laugh: sorry, but you set that one up way too well.

 

[flyboyike]

It's gonna be interesting, and it DOES concern all of us.

Is Delta planning another merger?