Seniority dispute ends at US Airways

[Metrojet]

Separate contracts, blame yourself, don't come crying to me.

wow - thats the best answer you can come up with - after spewing all your reasons why this is going to be heard in the Supreme Court or in another lower court (after you pay Marty all the money you guys owe him)?

We on the east are just waiting to see what the decision is with LOA 93 pay rates - and if it is favorable - we will be very happy for the next 5-7 years with hundreds of retirements on the east - while the west goes nowhere.

C'mon - do you really want the next 5-7 years to be like the last 4? Maybe some of you out West want to move forward.

Metrojet

 

[El Pobre]

Consolidation is the name of the game right now in the industry and no one wants to dance with US AIR because of this seniority issue.

I think that eventually this will be the demise of this airline...but, that will take care of the capacity problem, supply and demand will thus allow more pricing power for the airlines, and perhaps airlines will start turning in year over year profits again. ALPA won't care, because they'll be eager to show what happens to a pilot group when they don't have the tremendous benefits of ALPA representation.

I give it 3-5 years. But the good news for USAIR/AWA pilots is that that's about the time that all of the age 65 geezers will be retiring so all former USAIR/AWA pilots should be able to get a job at whatever airline remains.

With the new hour requirements for ATP qualification, the USAIR/AWA pilots will fill in the bottom of the seniority lists for airlines that are desperate to hire qualified pilots that meet the new minimums.

 

[TransMach]

Consolidation is the name of the game right now in the industry and no one wants to dance with US AIR because of this seniority issue.

I think that eventually this will be the demise of this airline...but, that will take care of the capacity problem, supply and demand will thus allow more pricing power for the airlines, and perhaps airlines will start turning in year over year profits again. ALPA won't care, because they'll be eager to show what happens to a pilot group when they don't have the tremendous benefits of ALPA representation.

I give it 3-5 years. But the good news for USAIR/AWA pilots is that that's about the time that all of the age 65 geezers will be retiring so all former USAIR/AWA pilots should be able to get a job at whatever airline remains.

With the new hour requirements for ATP qualification, the USAIR/AWA pilots will fill in the bottom of the seniority lists for airlines that are desperate to hire qualified pilots that meet the new minimums.

Ding, Ding, Ding ... we have a winner ... neither east or west wins or looses... just the industry. Just as it has always been a business, not a bunch of whipsaw BS ... "they owe me", "my seniority", "my this", "my that". I think it will soon all be over for better times.

TransMach

 

[Taco Rocket]

Consolidation is the name of the game right now in the industry and no one wants to dance with US AIR because of this seniority issue.

I think that eventually this will be the demise of this airline...but, that will take care of the capacity problem, supply and demand will thus allow more pricing power for the airlines, and perhaps airlines will start turning in year over year profits again. ALPA won't care, because they'll be eager to show what happens to a pilot group when they don't have the tremendous benefits of ALPA representation.

How does an internal seniority issue equate to the demise of an airline? Answer: it doesn't. It may make merging more unattractive to some stakeholders, but in the grand scheme of things it is irrelevant. You are not as important as you think you are.

I have seen various crew news videos where (mostly west) guys ask Parker or Kirby what they are going to do about this or that, or enforce this or that. The straight answer is they don't care about you as an employee or person, nor do they care about your seniority concerns or who legally represents you. The pilots asking these questions do so under several false premises. To these two men, and the financial community that drives mergers and acquisitions, pilots are just higher than average compensated employees with an annoying collective bargaining agent.

So end the drama about "how are we going to work together!" and "this will destroy the airline!" Parker told you on a recent video that you are either going to behave as a professional or be shown the door. Perhaps it is this tough love, perceived as a sense of abandonment "from a management that really cares!" "and the end of the 'real' America West!" and "we had a sense of family!" that really bothers you. Either way, it's over, and it's time to move on.

 

[MCDU]

The reason the Westies want the Nic so bad is because it would put their furloughed pilots 25% up the east list instantly, plus they are scared that their jobs out West might get PSAed and they need the lifeboat of the East pilot positions. The East has sacrificed enough. West gets PHX. Trying to place a 2005 hire in front of a 1988 hire will not be accepted in PHL, CLT or DCA. The jobs Westies bought to the merger reminds of the properties people had in Vegas and PHX. Worthless.

M

 

[Tweaker]

+ 1 Taco Rocket. Spot on analysis.

 

[Cowboy75]

wow - thats the best answer you can come up with - after spewing all your reasons why this is going to be heard in the Supreme Court or in another lower court (after you pay Marty all the money you guys owe him)?

We on the east are just waiting to see what the decision is with LOA 93 pay rates - and if it is favorable - we will be very happy for the next 5-7 years with hundreds of retirements on the east - while the west goes nowhere.

C'mon - do you really want the next 5-7 years to be like the last 4? Maybe some of you out West want to move forward.

Metrojet

You guys had your chance in 06 getting a joint contract during better economic times. We are not the ones who grabbed your balls and stormed out. Good luck on LOA 93, more power to you.

I have complete confidence in Marty and Leonidas. The best money I have ever spent.

We'll move forward when the courts decide. Maybe then, it will be binding.

 

[xanderman]

Ooooooo Weeeee! Lots of east hubris here... Gotta love it. Don't forget boys and girls the company asked for a declaratory judgement. It may stir things up a bit. No matter what the east THINKS the 9th said it'll turn out one of two ways. Either DFR II when their DOH list is implemented or the DJ filing by the company will render USAPA's negotiations for anything other than the Nic DOA.

Doesn't matter guys. You either live up to your agreements or deal with the ******************** storm that we are living in.

 

[P38JLightning]

What is USAPA's/East's version of what the list should be regarding DOH and time spent on furlough? IOW does (should) time after DOH spent on furlough count as active service/longevity for the purpose of determining greater seniority over another pilot (West) who had more total active service?

 

[Carl S.]

The "Gold Standard", straight DOH, right from their CBL's! How did DAL/NWA do it? How will CAL/UAL do it? AAA, still living in the 80's!

 

[C Festerpuss]

Y'all needs to lookie here...

http://media.photobucket.com/image/...lMonkey/Animated/beating-a-dead-horse.gif?o=1


Ya needs to talk bout sumpin important like how the original "rust heads' screwed up the bestest little airline the south had ever seen; Piedmont.

At's why CLT is the "Hubba Bubba" an PIT ain't it no more.

Give it a rest. Ain't nutting gonna happen till we gets a contract anyways.

 

[El Pobre]

How does an internal seniority issue equate to the demise of an airline? Answer: it doesn't. It may make merging more unattractive to some stakeholders, but in the grand scheme of things it is irrelevant. You are not as important as you think you are.

I think that my point is this...for whatever reason, mergers are considered to be needed in the industry right now. Everyone is partnering up. It's interesting to see where we stand now vs. where we were when airlines were deregulated.

I think that the pilot squabble makes USAIR unattractive to any other carrier, because they know that there is no way to successfully merge the two pilot groups since USAIR's group can't come to an acceptable solution.

All I'm saying is that if consolidation is seen as essential in the future, USAIR might be left standing alone and that may not work out for the airline. It could go one of many ways...but I think that my observation is spot on (as it always is). OK, you guys go back to your little family squabble.

 

[Tweaker]

I long for re-entrance to the Bubba Hubba. I intend to double down on my commitment to a southern alternative lifestyle. Moving from Sheetcago to Ol' Virginny was great. Ahmma gonna try South Cackalacky next, mebbe fer life!

 

[LaGarbage Man]

I long for re-entrance to the Bubba Hubba. I intend to double down on my commitment to a southern alternative lifestyle. Moving from Sheetcago to Ol' Virginny was great. Ahmma gonna try South Cackalacky next, mebbe fer life!

Thats our plan as well. Going to have and pass on the "ALTERNATIVE" part but we look forward to the rest of the southern lifestyle. The wife and I are checking out houses around Lake B scale (Wiley) Don't think we can afford Lake A scale (Norman). We are going to wait a little bit and make sure this recall "STICKS" if you know what I mean ??

 

[Draginass]

Everything about US Air is a train wreck. Nobody in their right mind would buy anything except a hard assets from US Air.

Pretty safe to say that US Air is the leper colony of the airline industry.

 

[jbDC9]

Trying to place a 2005 hire in front of a 1988 hire will not be accepted in PHL, CLT or DCA. The jobs Westies bought to the merger reminds of the properties people had in Vegas and PHX. Worthless.

Worthless? You mean like being an '88 hire at US Air and all that gets you is being a junior FO? Genius.

Man, you and St Nic just keep on proving that you're the absolute biggest idiots on FI.

 

[MCDU]

That 1988 doh was a capt before and now has about 800 east pilots below him. Your new hire is and was always bottom.

M

 

[say again]

That 1988 doh was a capt before and now has about 800 east pilots below him. Your new hire is and was always bottom.

M

Key word....WAS. Don't f@#k over other pilots because you got screwed in the past.

 

[B727Driver]

Had there not been a buyer, your 1988 doh capt. would be on the street after the liquidation.

 

[MCDU]

Give me a break junior. Awa had no money and was owned 2/3 by the government. Look where all the profits are
made. Hardly out west. West jobs are worthless. easties did not sacrifice so some 28 year old ex Mesa can jump ahead of someone with 17 years.

M

 

[B727Driver]

Junior, think again.

Profits????

2 BK's, loss of pensions, huge paycuts and over 50% of your flying outsourced.

After all that, you can't help but make a profit.

 

[MCDU]

Junior, think again.

Profits????

2 BK's, loss of pensions, huge paycuts and over 50% of your flying outsourced.

After all that, you can't help but make a profit.

Nice avatar.

M

 

[xanderman]

Nice avatar.

M

That goes for the both of you! Wait... You don't think... Nah. Couldn't be! Is MCDU's avatar the bottom half of B727Driver's?!?!?!? Oh man! That would be a whole lotta woman!!!!!

 

[doh]

I love these threads! Vitriol right up to DFR II!

 

[BeCareful!]

Ooooooo Weeeee! Lots of east hubris here... Gotta love it. Don't forget boys and girls the company asked for a declaratory judgement. It may stir things up a bit. No matter what the east THINKS the 9th said it'll turn out one of two ways. Either DFR II when their DOH list is implemented or the DJ filing by the company will render USAPA's negotiations for anything other than the Nic DOA.

Doesn't matter guys. You either live up to your agreements or deal with the ******************** storm that we are living in.

No one voted on the "agreement" you speak of; ALPA doesn't allow it (USAPA is, of course, different in this regard.) In any case, I believe you'll find that with ALPA long gone, for myriad reasons, there is no party here any more that agreed to anything. Perhaps this will become clearer to you soon. The company's actions, as well as those of your crack lawyer, are going to bring this essential fact out (no matter how hard your pocket-judge tried to suppress it.)

 

[xanderman]

No one voted on the "agreement" you speak of; ALPA doesn't allow it (USAPA is, of course, different in this regard.)

I understand that. Did you know ALPA didn't allow that before the negotiation, mediation and subsequent arbitration? Did you ever think it may turn out unsatisfactory? I am glad that USAPA does allow voting, I'm no ALPA fan. But that in and of itself does not excuse the east from their obligation to live with terms their leadership negotiates. It's kinda like no one claiming they voted for the current contract...everyone still has to live with it.


In any case, I believe you'll find that with ALPA long gone, for myriad reasons, there is no party here any more that agreed to anything. Perhaps this will become clearer to you soon.[/quote]

Perhaps. I am sure that USAPA will get to negotiating right away now that they feel free to do so. When and if S22 is implemented we'll start DFR II. Don't take it personally. I don't take your DOH stance personally! It's just how things are gonna be...

The company's actions, as well as those of your crack lawyer, are going to bring this essential fact out (no matter how hard your pocket-judge tried to suppress it.)

We'll see won't we. Either way I do believe we all need to get on with life here. I think Nic is fair as it was rendered by a neutral third party and you feel USAPA's imposition of their ideology/DOH is fair. I get it man! It's whats good for you. Nic is what's good for me. Have a good weekend and see ya 'round...

 

[Ocity]

No one voted on the "agreement" you speak of; ALPA doesn't allow it (USAPA is, of course, different in this regard.) In any case, I believe you'll find that with ALPA long gone, for myriad reasons, there is no party here any more that agreed to anything. Perhaps this will become clearer to you soon. The company's actions, as well as those of your crack lawyer, are going to bring this essential fact out (no matter how hard your pocket-judge tried to suppress it.)

ALPA is not gone for "myriad" reasons. ALPA was voted off for one, singular solitary reason...to attempt to grant the East another bite at the apple. All of the pretense and lies were flushed out in the courtroom. There is no other arguments to make in that regard.

How many "parties" on the East voted for your ALPA contract? Funny how EVERY LETTER of that contract is still enforceable. Why? ALPA is gone. Why can't the company toss your contract and just inform you that you now make minimum wage with no benefits? Why is the company bound to honor a contract that you say doesn't apply to you any more because you changed your name?

See how easy it is to flush out the hypocrisy and lies? That's why it was so easy to convict those USAPA A-holes the first time around. The facts and merits have not changed, in fact USAPA's recent behavior have cemented their intentions to deal in bad faith to get what they demand. IOW the Case for AOL has gotten much easier to prove. Considering the fact that a JURY of 9 UNANIMOUSLY voted to convict USAPA of a DFR in under 90 minutes should make you just a tad leary of DFRII.

One way or another, USAPA is doomed. There is nothing based in record or fact to indicate otherwise.

 

[johnnyb]

ALPA is not gone for "myriad" reasons. ALPA was voted off for one, singular solitary reason...to attempt to grant the East another bite at the apple.

All of the pretense and lies were flushed out in the courtroom.

Funny, last time I checked 3 of 5 current ALPA DFR legal actions were by the East.

Courtroom? Guess you missed the latest yesterday .....

Judge Wake’s Order directs that “the Partial Judgment and Permanent Injunction entered July 17, 2009 is vacated.” Furthermore, the Order mandates that the entire Addington action is dismissed for lack of subject matter jurisdiction.

 

[becket]

Funny, last time I checked 3 of 5 current ALPA DFR legal actions were by the East.

Courtroom? Guess you missed the latest yesterday .....

Judge Wake’s Order directs that “the Partial Judgment and Permanent Injunction entered July 17, 2009 is vacated.” Furthermore, the Order mandates that the entire Addington action is dismissed for lack of subject matter jurisdiction.

Explain how a "victory" on ripeness is going to benefit you EVER? You know DRFII is just a pen stroke away...we all know how that turned out last time. Also, it's more than clear the company is having serious issues giving into your illegal demands. The 9th didn't do you any favors. In fact, the 9th has just kept you on LOA 93 for a few more years and in the end, You're still going to be forced to live to your agreements. YOU and YOUR PILOT GROUP...NOT THE NAME ON THE UNION DOOR! The nic. is going to be implemented. The 3 parties are contractually bound to it. No getting out of it.

The 9th had a chance to end this and they failed everybody. Square 1 with a clear vision of what the future holds (DFR Conviction) is hardly the victory I would have wanted if I were you.

 

[Cowboy75]

Funny, last time I checked 3 of 5 current ALPA DFR legal actions were by the East.

Courtroom? Guess you missed the latest yesterday .....

Judge Wake’s Order directs that “the Partial Judgment and Permanent Injunction entered July 17, 2009 is vacated.” Furthermore, the Order mandates that the entire Addington action is dismissed for lack of subject matter jurisdiction.

Let's see what happens when you present that fantasy list. For one, you don't know if the company will accept the list and there is not a damn thing you can do about it.

Two: DFRII