Rip nji

[fischman]

A month or two ago a comment was made

"Regular Line Pilots should not be Union Stewards"

That Elitist statement says it all right there and may very well dictate our futures.

Yup. I said that, and stand by my statement. It takes a special kind of person to be an effective Steward for NJASAP.

 

[Pervis]

The bottom line is that the majority did vote and decided to continue under the direction of the same NJASAP president that was instrumental in bringing them the 2005 contract; the IBB package; integration; and the Preventive Measures program that kept NJ pilots employed a year longer before their ultimate furlough. It appears to me that the majority of NJA pilots recognize that the EBoard has been working very hard on their behalf. As one who follows NJASAP issues very closely, I am in complete agreement with their public assessment.

About 1300 out of nearly 2300 eligible voters cast ballots. Votes for Mr. Luthi totalled 828, or 36% of eligible voting members. More than half voted, but last time I checked 36% is well below a majority count. No doubt some are happy with the current state of affairs, but 44% didn't even bother to vote. Could be they just don't care, or maybe they didn't care for any of the candidates. And don't say more should have stepped up. Anytime a newbie appears, they are shot down as not having enough experience, or more accurately, are not part of the click this group has become. As involved in the union as you and your family are, I would hope you would avoid the spin tactics prevalent in politics these days. Listen to those outside your circle of supporters for a change. You'd be suprised how a lot of members feel right about now.

 

[CRJFlyer]

and the Preventive Measures program that kept NJ pilots employed a year longer before their ultimate furlough. It appears to me that the majority of NJA pilots recognize that the EBoard has been working very hard on their behalf. As one who follows NJASAP issues very closely, I am in complete agreement with their public assessment.

I'm sorry but I don't look at is "having the priviledge of KEEPING my job for a year longer...

I see it as receiving a sense of false hope for an extra year. Since your neither a pilot, nor was your husband furloughed, it is something you simply would not understand in regards to NJA.

If it would have been known last May that.."hey guys you will be furloughed in January, but we can keep you employed until then so start applying to other jobs, get your financials in order, sell the house if needed, start working your contacts etc..."

Instead we were in a heightened state of limbo for a long long time, unable to accept any other crappy employment if needed, unable to sell our homes because there was a chance we wouldn't need to, we couldn't commit to anything because NJA couldn't decide what to do. Granted we had a few options, take an LOA (if you had the resources to take a long term huge paycut on the chance you wouldn't have ever been furloughed)...

Personally I would rather have known a year ago that I'd be furloughed in 6,9,or 12 months. And could have taken my current job much sooner if possible, instead of taking it under duress and uprooting my family on very short notice. And even though I found a fun job that pays more than NJA, I still had to move my family away from home and away form the grandparents, aunt's, great grandma's etc... Time that my family will never get back from my 18 month old.. For that I will remain forever bitter at the whole company.

 

[LAZYB]

Uhhh

We're not family.
~ David S

 

[CRJFlyer]

If I saw DS now I'd smack him upside his bald head along with his ugly wife....... No offesne to those who are bald or have ugly wives......

 

[B19 Flyer]

I'm sorry but I don't look at is "having the priviledge of KEEPING my job for a year longer...

I see it as receiving a sense of false hope for an extra year. Since your neither a pilot, nor was your husband furloughed, it is something you simply would not understand in regards to NJA.

If it would have been known last May that.."hey guys you will be furloughed in January, but we can keep you employed until then so start applying to other jobs, get your financials in order, sell the house if needed, start working your contacts etc..."

Instead we were in a heightened state of limbo for a long long time, unable to accept any other crappy employment if needed, unable to sell our homes because there was a chance we wouldn't need to, we couldn't commit to anything because NJA couldn't decide what to do. Granted we had a few options, take an LOA (if you had the resources to take a long term huge paycut on the chance you wouldn't have ever been furloughed)...

Personally I would rather have known a year ago that I'd be furloughed in 6,9,or 12 months. And could have taken my current job much sooner if possible, instead of taking it under duress and uprooting my family on very short notice. And even though I found a fun job that pays more than NJA, I still had to move my family away from home and away form the grandparents, aunt's, great grandma's etc... Time that my family will never get back from my 18 month old.. For that I will remain forever bitter at the whole company.

CRJ, I've taken a bashing for years about not liking unions, but this experience you are describing is EXACTLY what I dislike about what unions do.

You are right, NJW is safe from this situation and spews the sewage from her mouth as if she has any kind of clue as to what she's talking about.


To all of you union advocates that have bashed my opinions for years:

Do any of you feel uncomfortable that NJW writes what she does with her sole source of information being that of her husband?

She doesn't work for the company, she isn't a union member, she's not a pilot yet she has these opinions that comes as if she is leading the union herself.

Those opinions can only come from one source, her husband. It's clear that it's HIS opinions being mirrored through her keyboard, and if I was a union member I'd be quite concerned about the lack of "loose lips sink ships" kind of attitude.

That's YOUR union representation voicing himself through her log-in and words. Creepy that your union would allow that to happen if they really cared about the pilot group.

And CRJ, I've been exactly where you are before and can empathize with what you're going through. What you experienced is EXACTLY what I dislike about unions. The company is trying to find a balance, but the additional intervention creates false hopes.

 

[gret]

I'm sorry but I don't look at is "having the priviledge of KEEPING my job for a year longer...

You are a man and that is all that counts! Very good post! Too bad that not everyone doesn't have the stones you do.

 

[CRJFlyer]

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the benefits that NJASAP or any union can provide..When things are run correctly....And I am definitely a pro-union pilot...

My current gig is non-union, and although it is 100x less stressful than having election after election or grievance after grievance etc.. It also does stink not having a set in stone contract or legal recourse in the event of a mishap or 1 too many sick calls etc.

But I will say that being a product of the nearly defunct Comair and the events of the past year at NJA, am a bit tired of the "good old boys club, the senior elitist attitudes, how the top half always reaps the benefits etc.."

I've had my fill of the "atleast you got to keep you job for an extra year because I volunteered some extra pay" speeches (specifically NJW's constant rhetoric on this) ....My employment wasn't a priviledge to me. NJA was priviledged to have a professional, with a solid background and no accidents, incidents, or violations, to accept an employment offer from them....

I'm in no way saying I'm super pilot guy, and in my class we were all way qualified for the NJA job, but my life wasn't significantly bettered because I "got to keep my job for an etra 6 months".....

I had always said I'd rather just get the bad news now than have it be drawn out like it was...

 

[NJAowner]

In a very strange way, timing of furloughs or firings or other job loss events, is not really known until long after.

I had many friends who were employed at Bear Stearns and lost their jobs in March 2008. It seemed horrible at the time. However, most of them found new jobs within 6 months. When the sh!t hit the fan in late 2008, many of those people are still unemployed in the financial sector. Looking back, the Bear Stearns employees are glad that they were the first to go and not kept on for a few more months.

Yes it is strange, and painful at the time, but success can only be viewed at some point in the future.

 

[VGerect]

....My employment wasn't a priviledge to me. NJA was priviledged to have a professional, with a solid background and no accidents, incidents, or violations, to accept an employment offer from them....

I'm in no way saying I'm super pilot guy, and in my class we were all way qualified for the NJA job, but my life wasn't significantly bettered because I "got to keep my job for an etra 6 months".....

I had always said I'd rather just get the bad news now than have it be drawn out like it was...

I could not have said that any better.
-495'er

 

[netjetwife]

About 1300 out of nearly 2300 eligible voters cast ballots. Votes for Mr. Luthi totalled 828, or 36% of eligible voting members. More than half voted, Which is the point I was making. but last time I checked 36% is well below a majority count. Agreed... I was referring to the total number of voters and the fact that the percentage is not unusual for our country or other Unions. No doubt some are happy with the current state of affairs, but 44% didn't even bother to vote. Could be they just don't care, ... I've heard it said that pilots are the most motivated to vote when it's contract time. That appears to be the case at NJA, too. ... Anytime a newbie appears, they are shot down as not having enough experience, or more accurately, are not part of the click this group has become. The fact that an incumbent was not re-elected disproves your claim. All 3 of the winninng candidates are brand new to the EBoard. The experience they gained serving on committees and/or as Stewards was/is seen as a plus by the pilotgroup. The NJ pilots, just like any voter in any election, weighed the qualifications of the candidates and chose the one they were most confident was well suited to the position. ... Listen to those outside your circle of supporters for a change. You'd be suprised how a lot of members feel right about now.

The voting history of the NJA pilotgroup shows that wide-spread dissatisfaction shows up in election results. If it was as high as you claim then logically the NJASAP president would have been replaced, more pilots would have taken the opportunity to vote, and more candidates would have run for an EBoard position. Typically, in any election anywhere, you can find dissenters grumbling over an issue, but when the NJA pilots clamor for change enmass their voices are heard loud and clear.

 

[netjetwife]

.... I've had my fill of the "atleast you got to keep you job for an extra year because I volunteered some extra pay" speeches (specifically NJW's constant rhetoric on this) .... I only started pointing that out because of the unwarranted complaints that NJASAP didn't do enough to help. Many NJA families were concerned for those on the bottom of the list and they don't deserve to have their efforts publically dismissed like some here have done. The comments made (regarding the Voluntary Measures) on the NJA board by those at risk of being furloughed were much more favorable than this thread would have readers believe. My employment wasn't a priviledge to me. .... Nor was I suggesting that it was. I was merely pointing out that things could have been worse; that many furloughed pilots from NJ and other companies would have gladly postponed their furlough for a year.

I'm in no way saying I'm super pilot guy, and in my class we were all way qualified for the NJA job, but my life wasn't significantly bettered because I "got to keep my job for an etra 6 months"..... Actually, it was a full year when you count the months that NJASAP and the Company spent discussing the situation and designing the VM program through to the last paycheck.

I had always said I'd rather just get the bad news now than have it be drawn out like it was...

Your personal opinion, while certainly your perogative, wasn't shared by your NJ peers company wide. The program wouldn't have gotten off the ground (or even out of the discussion phase, for that matter) if the need for it wasn't seen by the majority. For most families loss of income is a serious situation that is easier to deal with the longer they have to prepare. The program was created while thinking of NJ families most likely to need time to save money, pay off bills, make arrangements, etc. -- not the least likely to want the extra time.

 

[CRJFlyer]

In a very strange way, timing of furloughs or firings or other job loss events, is not really known until long after.

I had many friends who were employed at Bear Stearns and lost their jobs in March 2008. It seemed horrible at the time. However, most of them found new jobs within 6 months. When the sh!t hit the fan in late 2008, many of those people are still unemployed in the financial sector. Looking back, the Bear Stearns employees are glad that they were the first to go and not kept on for a few more months.

Yes it is strange, and painful at the time, but success can only be viewed at some point in the future.

That's pretty much how the aviation sector views furloughs...The first to be let go often find employment fairly quickly, then when the later furloughs occur those individuals have the tougher time.

I believe the first 495 felt this way, especially when there were more furloughs on the horizon. We had already navigated the UI benefit route, hit the ground running looking for jobs, and most of us have formed a nice bond that years down the road may lead to opportunities or at the very least a "buddy buddy" system like the "good old boy" system we often see today with the senior individuals. It's been pretty remarkable thow close and supportive that many of us on the alternate NJA board have become.

It's all how you attack a negative event in your life. I was lucky enough to manage my money (although probably on a much smaller scale than your finances) and actually come out ahead from where I started in the beginning of January. Accept for car payments and a student loan I've gotten everything else payed off, moved the family, buying a new house in a much more desired location in a much more desired state, and managed to totally rid myself of the stress that NJA provided over the last year through a new job, with a better schedule, more pay and better quality of life. Now I'm considering a way to start a back-up career to supplement my income, and hopefully within 5 years branch that career into a business opportunity that may pay off someday if it ever works out the way I hope.

 

[CRJFlyer]

Your personal opinion, while certainly your perogative, wasn't shared by your NJ peers company wide. The program wouldn't have gotten off the ground (or even out of the discussion phase, for that matter) if the need for it wasn't seen by the majority. For most families loss of income is a serious situation that is easier to deal with the longer they have to prepare. The program was created while thinking of NJ families most likely to need time to save money, pay off bills, make arrangements, etc. -- not the least likely to want the extra time.

I've never once said that NJASAP didn't do enough to help. I'm the type that will only ask for help when it is absolutely necessary. (I won't even ask my family for help, turned down a $50 from my folks just on principle). My only contention was that at times the information NJASAP gave out was wrong. (UI benefits and the resignation issues). If the info is not correct then don't pass it along......

And of course the VM's were a good try.... Although they dragged out the inevitable, and created much of the false hope. (in my case the worrying and stress was not worth the extra months of pay. I can't count the number of times that my wife would comment that she just wished they get on with it already)...

My only problem with the VM's was the attitude from the non-furlough individuals (not all just some small minority) who consistantly say that "they" were the hero's for sacrificing their $$.....I'm not saying I wasn't happy with the effort, but myself and many many SIC's also contributed to the overall effort. (I took 2 out of 3 VM measures) at the time I thought I was fairly safe from furlough too.

I obviously don't blame NJASAP for the furlough, I blame the 5 or 6 guys running the show at NJA, and doing a poor job of it. But IMO NJASAP is not the end all be all of unions. Good union, sure...The best to ever represent a group of workers??? Yet to be determined, but I gotta say no to that one.

I've always said that machinist unions and unions for avererage blue collar workers are much more unified than any pilot union will ever be. A pilot union is much too reliant on seniority to ever fully suceed for the good of the entire work group. Too many different tiers of pay based soley on the number of stripes on ones shoulders...

 

[RP170]

Good, thoughtful posting CRJ. You obviously know I've agreed with bascially everything you have expressed throughout this whole process. I'm glad you found a great job. I'm still trying. The lack of PIC time thing is a real killer at this point! Would have never went to NJA if I would have thought I'd need the PIC time in the future. I'd have 3000 hours of it by now if I would have stayed put where I was and far, far more employable!!!