Rip nji

[jppt2000]

It's easy to argue that point like some have (NJW) after the fact. IMHO though, some of those posters are expressing frustration that might not exist if we hadn't been banned in the first place. The act of banning us caused a lot of that anger and prevented us from discussing feelings on certain issues in the correct forum with the right people. If our status on the NJASAP forum had not changed, I doubt many would be here posting such things. They would most likely be on the NJASAP board, having to use their real names, and would keep it respectful but to the point.

So, I think the "see this proves that you guys should have been banned" argument is total BS.

I didn't say I agreed with the decision, but the actions of a few, have made their decision easy to defend.

 

[imacdog]

There are always going to be a few on any side..............

The question is, why punish all the good folks for the few rotten apples? If we were to apply that logic evenly, then no pilot should be allowed on the union board.

 

[rajflyboy]

Nope, I'm fine, I'm disappointed at what you post about the company that pays your bills.
Out of 3000+ folks there is always gonna be disgruntled furloughees looking for anything to burn, stalkers, weirdos, braggards, egotists, people who were hired at the tail end of a hiring cycle, and wannabes (folks that didn't make it through the interviews) looking to throw mud/crap.
Just remember raj, CRJFO (self proclaimed management insider with exclusive information :laugh, every "half truth - dirty laundry" post about the company you work for quite possibly pushes the recall date of your/my/our "buddies" further away.
Oh yeah CRJFO thinks he has the pulse of what's going on cause he goes upstairs and "talks" with people upstairs in CMH :laugh::laugh::laugh:
Just wait till your deep throat sources are told what they say will end up on Flight Info.

Dirty laundry??

Watch you talking about willis??? You are making stuff up again.

I didn't say a word negative about Netjets. I did say that we are unhappy with the people who collect the pilots due's here. We have the first amendment and its perfectly legal for me to say that.

I'd hardly call 2500 pilots who want the other 500 pilots to pay back due's dirty laundry? Its just business. We don't hate the NJI guys by any means. Its just morally and ethically what must happen in order for this to go down in a reasonable manner. The majority of NJA pilots did not even want to merge with the NJI guys in the first place.

You need to start answering the tuff questions and quit the personal attacks.

 

[gutshotdraw]

I'd hardly call 2500 pilots who want the other 500 pilots to pay back due's dirty laundry? Its just business. We don't hate the NJI guys by any means. Its just morally and ethically what must happen in order for this to go down in a reasonable manner. The majority of NJA pilots did not even want to merge with the NJI guys in the first place.

???? Where have you been? NJASAP and IBT284/1108 before them have been pounding the table for YEARS (at least for the 11 I've been here) to integrate the pilot groups. It was one of THE major bones of contention in the 2005 contract talks because the VAST majority of the membership demanded it.

And, let me see if I've got this straight. I am required to: join a union that I did not vote for in an organizing election, watch 27 pilots get furloughed when we weren't overstaffed, take a pay cut for the next 4 years, give up major quality-of-life benefits the job has always provided, and watch another 50 of my co-workers lose their jobs and you want me to PAY $20-25,000 for the privilege?

Most of us accepted the integration as a fact of life long ago and are trying hard to see the benefits down the line but I am just VERY thankful that NJASAP is actually run by people with a CLUE and not people that believe as you do.

 

[jppt2000]

Dirty laundry??

Watch you talking about willis??? You are making stuff up again.

I didn't say a word negative about Netjets. I did say that we are unhappy with the people who collect the pilots due's here. We have the first amendment and its perfectly legal for me to say that.

I'd hardly call 2500 pilots who want the other 500 pilots to pay back due's dirty laundry? Its just business. We don't hate the NJI guys by any means. Its just morally and ethically what must happen in order for this to go down in a reasonable manner. The majority of NJA pilots did not even want to merge with the NJI guys in the first place.

You need to start answering the tuff questions and quit the personal attacks.

What you post is completely untrue and baseless.
Tell you what, I'd be happy to forward your prose to BW (the subject matter expert appointed by the union), maybe he could set you straight, plus maybe you'd stop misrepresenting the union and the truth.
most of all, who appointed you, and what qualifications do you have to speak for the NJA pilot group?
Your use of the words we, and must, are intriguing to say the least.
Or you could be an unhappy stalker, that believes if you post your venom enough it might just become reality.
You remind me of a pilot that told everyone he had won the powerball lottery, he said it so many times people actually believed him, for a while.

 

[Pervis]

???? Where have you been? NJASAP and IBT284/1108 before them have been pounding the table for YEARS (at least for the 11 I've been here) to integrate the pilot groups. It was one of THE major bones of contention in the 2005 contract talks because the VAST majority of the membership demanded it.

And, let me see if I've got this straight. I am required to: join a union that I did not vote for in an organizing election, watch 27 pilots get furloughed when we weren't overstaffed, take a pay cut for the next 4 years, give up major quality-of-life benefits the job has always provided, and watch another 50 of my co-workers lose their jobs and you want me to PAY $20-25,000 for the privilege?

Most of us accepted the integration as a fact of life long ago and are trying hard to see the benefits down the line but I am just VERY thankful that NJASAP is actually run by people with a CLUE and not people that believe as you do.

You are somewhat misinformed. While it is very unfortunate any were furloughed, the whole company was overstaffed due to decrease in growth. And all but 50 or so NJI pilots were upgraded to captain in the last two years. Now there is a 90% capt to FO ratio. There are G captains six years my junior. Who got the better deal there?

Pay cut? Hardly. You get the option of keeping your salary and work rules or CBA rules and pay. On top of that, the company will true up the higher amount regardless of your choice at the end of the year on a case by case basis. Fact is, the vast majority of NJI pilots will get a significant raise due to OT, after midnight, and holiday pay in the CBA. Quite the protections granted without paying any dues at this point.

Where do you get 20-25k? It's 1.5% of gross. You must have misplaced a decimal point. You won't spend half of your annual per diem on dues-a benefit you don't get now. Besides, add up the salary differences and those QOL issues you have had and still get to keep after all these years and tell me you got the short end.

All the majority want is equal treatment for all. You guys have and still are getting the better deal, and the folks I've been paying dues to for years pushed the whole deal in 2005 and 2007.

I realize change like this is uncomfortable and unsettling, but when you add up the differences there is no question who comes out on top-those that have always been on top. I'm sure if you sit down and think about it, even you will find some justification for 2800 pilots to feel a bit miffed when NJI pilots complain about the change.

 

[ozpilot]

Excellent post Pervis, and spot on. I think a lot of NJI guys are going to pleasantly surprised when they see the benefits of our contract.

 

[gutshotdraw]

You are somewhat misinformed. No, you are. While it is very unfortunate any were furloughed, the whole company was overstaffed due to decrease in growth. NJI has been shortstaffed in the V fleet since the furlough and we had to upgrade IV Captains into the V to make up the shortfall. And all but 50 or so NJI pilots were upgraded to captain in the last two years. Now there is a 90% capt to FO ratio. There are G captains six years my junior. Who got the better deal there? At the time, we were separate companies with separate upgrade schedules and there are 15 more permanent G F/O's that were told over and over that it would stay separate.

Pay cut? Hardly. You get the option of keeping your salary and work rules or CBA rules and pay. On top of that, the company will true up the higher amount regardless of your choice at the end of the year on a case by case basis. Fact is, the vast majority of NJI pilots will get a significant raise due to OT, after midnight, and holiday pay in the CBA. Quite the protections granted without paying any dues at this point. My pay protection level (pay freeze level)is such that I won't see a dime of override pay in the true-up for the next four years until CBA pay for years of service catches up. Ergo: 1.5 percent dues (pay cut), 3 percent raise that I would have gotten this December (pay cut), roughly 3 percent inflation rate (pay cut), PER YEAR. Anyone with more than 9 years of service will be in exactly the same boat.

Where do you get 20-25k? It's 1.5% of gross. I'm referring to Raj's assertion that NJI pilots should pay BACK dues to the union in order to be member's in good standing. That's 20 grand give or take for 11 years. You must have misplaced a decimal point. You won't spend half of your annual per diem on dues-a benefit you don't get now. Per diem a benefit? $40 bucks a day doesn't go very far in Kona. Besides, add up the salary differences and those QOL issues you have had and still get to keep after all these years and tell me you got the short end.

All the majority want is equal treatment for all. You guys have and still are getting the better deal, and the folks I've been paying dues to for years pushed the whole deal in 2005 and 2007.

I realize change like this is uncomfortable and unsettling, but when you add up the differences there is no question who comes out on top-those that have always been on top. I'm sure if you sit down and think about it, even you will find some justification for 2800 pilots to feel a bit miffed when NJI pilots complain about the change.

I've done the math. This little Brady Bunch moment will cost me about 80 grand. I was willing to let it go until turds like Raj start demanding I pay BACK dues.

 

[Jack Mehoff]

I've done the math. This little Brady Bunch moment will cost me about 80 grand. I was willing to let it go until turds like Raj start demanding I pay BACK dues.

You were flying for the alter ego non union side of the house. WTF did you think was going to happen man? Be glad you're not getting the stapler.

 

[Pervis]

I've done the math. This little Brady Bunch moment will cost me about 80 grand. I was willing to let it go until turds like Raj start demanding I pay BACK dues.

Raj and his very small minority buds won't get their wish-the LOAs are firmly in place. The vast majority of us want to minimize any impact. In fact, we are also in favor of the protections afforded you. I just wish we were given some good deals as well, as the fences in place prevent the vast majority from ever seeing the left seat of any G.

Who promised NJI would stay separate? RTS, when it fit his plans. Who agreed to single carrier status? RTS, when it fit his plans. And do you know what RTS told us while those upgades went on? He lied to us saying they weren't really captains until their a/c was on the line, and were paid FO wages. We didn't get the truth till early last year. Place your angst where it belongs. Honest question-why are there permanent FOs?

Your pay protection provides the higher of CBA or your current plan, including established annual increases, regardless of your choice. That goes until the next CBA, possibly not until 2016 or beyond. Under the CBA, get home one minute after midnight, regardless who's fault, gets you about 2 grand at your scale (I have the same longevity as you). Holiday pay is about 1 grand/day. Day one OT, when it happens, is huge. I think you will be pleasantly suprised with the real tangibles. In fact, with the legs you guys fly, I'll bet after midnights are not infrequent. I've had 4 this year already. Get home after noon on your first scheduled day off and you get the first day of your next tour off as well, in addition to the pay.

Another little extra applies once you accumulate a minimum number of sick days. You accumulate 12 per year. You can option to sell back sick days, and if you sell at least 5 days, you are paid 110% of your daily rate, paid in early Feb each year. It all adds up.

Per diem is indeed a benefit. I made over 5 grand last year (99% domestic)-tax free-which is twice what I paid in dues. Yea, Kona ain't cheap, but you still get crew food in addition to per diem, and have the option of going on receipts. Anywhere outside the lower 48 is considered international, at 60/day. That will more than pay your dues, thus no "reduction" in pay as you surmise. The dues tax deduction is another issue-approximately 800 hundred net reduction in federal obligation, which also offsets the dues.

Once you are more familiar with the CBA, you will be more comfortable and your concerns will prove unwarranted. In fact, one of your very senior guys lives right next door to me, and he is quite comfortable with the system after it was explained to him and a number of others present in their meeting in Savahna a month or two ago with union and company reps.

Please understand I am simply trying to address your concerns and help your transition. Any beef I have with merger details I have with those responsible-not our fellow pilots.

 

[Pervis]

You were flying for the alter ego non union side of the house. WTF did you think was going to happen man? Be glad you're not getting the stapler.

In what universe do you think that would have happened? That was never an option, and in fact arbitration may have made things far less pallatable than straight DOH.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Perv, we get CBA plus overrides OR NJI pay (whichever is higher). Not NJI pay PLUS overrides. They will keep track of the after midnight, before 8 am, yada, yada. But cba plus overrides won't exceed my cap for at least four years. Hence, pay cut.

You don't get crew meals on hotel standby in Kona, or Aspen, or any other expensive place. Therefore, meals will be coming out of my pocket a LOT.

As for Jack, the argument was ALWAYS same company, same job. That means I got hired by the same company 11 years ago. Staple job was NEVER going to happen.

 

[fly4funcrj]

Gut,

A serious question. IF the merger was not taking place, do you think that the pilots would have kept their 401k's and health bennies being that you would not have had any protections? The company killed the f/a's bennies and I imagine the company would have done the same to the pilots. That being said, the pilots would have taken huge pay cuts in terms of bennies and God knows what else. In this case, the CBA has protected a lot of stuff for you guys. Maybe I am wrong, but what do you think? And no, I am not trying to rub it in, start a fight or anything, just an honest question..

 

[rajflyboy]

You are somewhat misinformed. While it is very unfortunate any were furloughed, the whole company was overstaffed due to decrease in growth. And all but 50 or so NJI pilots were upgraded to captain in the last two years. Now there is a 90% capt to FO ratio. There are G captains six years my junior. Who got the better deal there?

Pay cut? Hardly. You get the option of keeping your salary and work rules or CBA rules and pay. On top of that, the company will true up the higher amount regardless of your choice at the end of the year on a case by case basis. Fact is, the vast majority of NJI pilots will get a significant raise due to OT, after midnight, and holiday pay in the CBA. Quite the protections granted without paying any dues at this point.

Where do you get 20-25k? It's 1.5% of gross. You must have misplaced a decimal point. You won't spend half of your annual per diem on dues-a benefit you don't get now. Besides, add up the salary differences and those QOL issues you have had and still get to keep after all these years and tell me you got the short end.

All the majority want is equal treatment for all. You guys have and still are getting the better deal, and the folks I've been paying dues to for years pushed the whole deal in 2005 and 2007.

I realize change like this is uncomfortable and unsettling, but when you add up the differences there is no question who comes out on top-those that have always been on top. I'm sure if you sit down and think about it, even you will find some justification for 2800 pilots to feel a bit miffed when NJI pilots complain about the change.

Great post Pervis and exactly what I'm hearing from 90 percent of the people I'm flying with!!

 

[rajflyboy]

What you post is completely untrue and baseless.
Tell you what, I'd be happy to forward your prose to BW (the subject matter expert appointed by the union), maybe he could set you straight, plus maybe you'd stop misrepresenting the union and the truth.
most of all, who appointed you, and what qualifications do you have to speak for the NJA pilot group?
Your use of the words we, and must, are intriguing to say the least.
Or you could be an unhappy stalker, that believes if you post your venom enough it might just become reality.
You remind me of a pilot that told everyone he had won the powerball lottery, he said it so many times people actually believed him, for a while.

You are a very very confused and misinformed puppy.

The pilot group prior to 2005 wanted to make sure that NJI was not taking work from NJA pilots with the Gulfsteam side. That does not mean that we wanted to merge and become 1 pilot group. I have never flown with a single pilot that wanted to merge the 2 pilot groups or seniority lists or even cared anything about it.

Do you think that survey information is remotely accurate? I have never been asked anything about integration in surveys I have taken. On top of that the questions are asked in a manner in which we can't even say exactly what we want to say most of the time.

The merger does make sense economically. No doubt about it. I don't think we need different HQ buildings all over the country. I understand the business end of this deal. I just don't believe that NJA pilots ever really wanted to merge seniorty lists.