recalldarrah.org

[dualrated]

I think the APA "funding" of the flushbacks is through concessions, not through dues money. This has already been funded by our 23% paycut and 2500 additional furloughs (which includes me and G4G5).

I guess it boils down to this: If you think that EGL is about to experience big growth and a fleet of 660 jets, then the old Supp. W is good for Eagle pilots, bad for AA pilots. If you think that Eagle growth will stagnate at the current fleet count, then the old Supp W is good for AA pilots, bad for Eagle.

Personally, I agree with Mike Boyd that the hayday of the 50 seat jet is drawing to a close, and the future is in the 90-110 seaters. I also think that there is plenty of room for more outsourcing to the Connection family.

Last one to the bottom is a rotten egg!

eglpilot started this thread with the statement, "you guys are in trouble." Look around. We are all in trouble.

 

[resistance]

Hey Allied Pinheads;

Jets for Jobs ain't working here at Eagle! It ain't gonna happen. Our pilot group is way too bitter and way too educated to let that one fly over here. We saw what happened over at US Air and your tactics (and AMR Eagle Management's) are not going to threaten us. Our group of professional pilots are not 20-something college kids that interned here at Eagle to get a job. We worked every kind of sh*t job to get here so we are wiser than you take us for.

For the "lucky" ones to flow-back......we are waiting for You.

No ScAAbs!

 

[G4G5]

And say, Yes to an Eagle IPO!

Divest 49% of Eagle while still maintaining the controling interest of 51% (ala Comair/ASA). Then use the money to pay down debt and order the inevitable ERJ170 series. Think it won't happen, think again.

Now that AA mainline has the 70/90/110 seaters. Problem solved. Or did you actually think that AA was planning on operating an airline with just 25-70 seaters and nothing else between 70 and 129 (MD80's)?

What is the benefit of owning 100% of your feed? Anybody else doing it? Take a look at CAL, they are the most recent major to wave good by to their regional and the flow up to mainline. So, in relatively short order you guys will not be able to flow up at all but at least you've got your contract and letter 3.

Big picture, letter 3 and sup W are all just window dressing until the stock market and the market for IPO's turns around. With 2004 being an election year, that should not be all that far away.

Or does someone this board actually think that AA would leave all that cash on the table and be the only major that owns 100%?

 

[Cleared Direct]

And say, Yes to an Eagle IPO!

Divest 49% of Eagle while still maintaining the controling interest of 51% (ala Comair/ASA). Then use the money to pay down debt and order the inevitable ERJ170 series. Think it won't happen, think again.

Yea right, just one little problem. Who would invest in Eagle? Get real. The only divestiture of Eagle that could be done today would be to a puppet buyer like the one they had set up to buy Executive in the islands. The Express Jet Holdings deal was done before things got even worse.

In addition there is the problem of buying into a company that has the legal liability of the flow back/ flow through agreements.

I am all for a complete sale though.

Now that AA mainline has the 70/90/110 seaters. Problem solved. Or did you actually think that AA was planning on operating an airline with just 25-70 seaters and nothing else between 70 and 129 (MD80's)?

What is the benefit of owning 100% of your feed? Anybody else doing it? Take a look at CAL, they are the most recent major to wave good by to their regional and the flow up to mainline. So, in relatively short order you guys will not be able to flow up at all but at least you've got your contract and letter 3.

Think again clueless. Read Letter 3/Supplement W again. There is a very clear legal binding successorship clause in the agreement unlike the one at CAL. It clearly states that the flow through agreement continues even after a complete sale.

Big picture, letter 3 and sup W are all just window dressing until the stock market and the market for IPO's turns around. With 2004 being an election year, that should not be all that far away.

Keep telling yourself that this is just a regular down cycle. Dream on. Things have changed and the airlines have to adapt. It is up to us to prevent management from driving what is left of the commercial pilot profession further into the ground. Instead APA has agreed to fly Eagle's CRJ-700s for less than what the current pilots at Eagle are fllying them for. I am real proud of you pinheads.

Or does someone this board actually think that AA would leave all that cash on the table and be the only major that owns 100%?

All that cash? The amount of money that Eagle could be sold for is not going to save AA dork. AMR already has a portfolio of airlines that they don't own. The America Connection brand alone has 3 separate carriers at this time with more on the way. Even APA was concerned enough about them that they signed a letter of agreement that calls for a specific protocol for a Jets-for-Jobs agreement with any of these carriers if they get future RJs that feed AA.

The fact is that both AMR and APA shot themselves in the foot by not involving Eagle ALPA in the concession negotiations. Now that they both realize that, and they still won't negotiate something even close to fair. See you in court!

 

[G4G5]

Originally posted by Cleared Direct [/i]
Yea right, just one little problem. Who would invest in Eagle? Get real. The only divestiture of Eagle that could be done today would be to a puppet buyer like the one they had set up to buy Executive in the islands. The Express Jet Holdings deal was done before things got even worse.

In addition there is the problem of buying into a company that has the legal liability of the flow back/ flow through agreements.

I am all for a complete sale though.

G4G5
Wrong!
The date of the CAL/Express IPO was April 18 2002.

So unless you have some special calendar that is POST 9/11!!!!!
You really look stupid when you can't be bothered to do the least bit of research.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Think again clueless. Read Letter 3/Supplement W again. There is a very clear legal binding successorship clause in the agreement unlike the one at CAL. It clearly states that the flow through agreement continues even after a complete sale.

G4G5
Should I take your word on it? Or do you think that it's possible for AMR mgt to eliminate the agreement? Where is it written that you have the right to flow through into an aircraft that has no been ordered(ERJ 170's)? Are you aware that NO EAGLE pilots can be recalled until ALL AA pilots have been recalled? Because our current contract (the new T/A) states that AA has the right to higher off the street while furloughed pilots are still at Eagle(that could be forever! All it takes is one guy).

The same T/A clearly states that the max recall rate to AA mainline from Eagle is 20 pilots per month(their is no min recall rate, one a month would comply with the TA)? How long will that take to get all the furloughed pilots and the pilots who wind up at Eagle recalled? Give it up. With an IPO the flow through is GONE just like at CAL!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Keep telling yourself that this is just a regular down cycle. Dream on. Things have changed and the airlines have to adapt. It is up to us to prevent management from driving what is left of the commercial pilot profession further into the ground. Instead APA has agreed to fly Eagle's CRJ-700s for less than what the current pilots at Eagle are fllying them for. I am real proud of you
pinheads.

G4G5
So you actually think that the CRJ series is going to be here for the long term? You kill me. You actually believe that AMR mgt plans on just operating the current 25-CRJ's and add nothing else. Or is it a possibility that the current CRJ's are just a stop gap until AA orders the ERJ's. You think for a minute that the CRJ900's can compete with the ERJ's? What does Bomardier make that can compete with the 115 seat ERJ195's? Try to think long term, big picture. If you were AMR mgt would you keep the 25-CRJ's or would you place the big ERJ order?

Ok now ask yourself how many of the ERJ's go to Eagle? None.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All that cash? The amount of money that Eagle could be sold for is not going to save AA dork. AMR already has a portfolio of airlines that they don't own. The America Connection brand alone has 3 separate carriers at this time with more on the way. Even APA was concerned enough about them that they signed a letter of agreement that calls for a specific protocol for a Jets-for-Jobs agreement with any of these carriers if they get future RJs that feed AA.

G4G5
Dork?
Read it and weep you MORON!

http://www.ainonline.com/Publications/RAA_02/raa_02_expressjetpg4.html

CAL was able to raise $480 million while maintaining a 53% controlling interest in Express. So genius if CAL got $480 mill just 8 months post 9/11. How much do you think the much larger Eagle would fetch? Well over a BILLION is the current Wall Street estimate! Executive was scheduled to be sold for $800 million alone! You really need to do just the slightest bit of research, otherwise you lose all creditability.


See you in court!
G4G5
That would be mergers and aquisitions court. You guys are toast. AMR is going to sell you guys so fast your heads will spin. Wait until the stock begins to level off. GWB has no choice but to turn things around and if you have bother to read the WSJ or look at the S&P you will see thing on the mend. Just look at AMR stock. So again is their anyone on this board who actually thinks that AMR will leave all that cash on the table?

That's why you were not invited to the table to negotiate. Take your contract and your letter 3 to your next boss.

 

[Cleared Direct]

I think the APA "funding" of the flushbacks is through concessions, not through dues money. This has already been funded by our 23% paycut and 2500 additional furloughs (which includes me and G4G5).

You are clearly not informed. Do you even listen to your own hotline? APA discussed this on one of their hotlines earlier this month.

Here is an old May posting that the PDP boys did on it initially when APA first revealed the problem:


________________________

http://www.apapdp.org/pdpblasts/052503.php


PDP Update for Sunday, May 25, 2003

Fellow Pilots,

Many important issues have arisen since the last PDP message. PDP will continue to provide you with information relevant to our industry, our company, and the protection of our careers.

As a new feature, PDP will analyze one aspect of the new contract either through comparison to the old contractual provision or to the contract of another carrier. This week, PDP does a side-by-side comparison of the old PVD (personal vacation day) system versus the new PVD system.

APA BOD Considering Buying Back Supplement W for $10 Million more in Concessions.

PDP has learned that APA leadership may have a case of “buyer’s remorse” regarding changes to Supplement W, the Eagle flowback. Supplement W, had it been left unchanged, would have provided 540 flowback slots for furloughed American Airlines pilots. Due to changes made by the APA BOD during the Tentative Agreement process, the number of flowback slots available is now less than 100, eliminating potential employment for 440 furloughed American Airlines pilots.

There is no doubt that the new flowback procedure represents a substantial concession. While APA leadership has portrayed our current flowback as a furlough mitigation measure and an improvement over the old Supplement W, this is clearly not the case.

We have learned that APA leadership negotiated the new flowback agreement without the approval of the pilots of American Eagle, who were signatories to the original Supplement W. As a result, APA is subject to legal action by ALPA in this matter- legal action that has a significant probability of success.

As a result, APA may attempt to execute the “buyer’s remorse” clause in the contract that would allow us to regain the original Supplement W agreement. APA would have to provide an additional concession worth $10 million to AMR in exchange for the original Supplement W. Exercising the “buyer’s remorse” clause in this matter would be APA’s last opportunity to change the terms of the agreement prior to the amendable date.

American Airlines has provided the APA BOD with a laundry list of concessionary items that they claim is worth $10 million. Note that the concession would not be limited to one year, but would be annual, reducing in amount as the term of the contract progressed.

PDP is concerned that APA leadership failed to execute due diligence in this matter. Correcting this mistake may have the dual consequence of additional concessions as well as the waste of the one-time “buyer’s remorse” clause in our collective bargaining agreement.
_______________________

Since then it has been revealed that the 10 million would only cover the estimated cost to just train the first year of APA pilots at Eagle. This did not include the domino training costs and the following years of training costs. AMR estimates that the total costs will exceed 45 million depending on the exact number that choose to go to Eagle. Get informed.

I guess it boils down to this: If you think that EGL is about to experience big growth and a fleet of 660 jets, then the old Supp. W is good for Eagle pilots, bad for AA pilots. If you think that Eagle growth will stagnate at the current fleet count, then the old Supp W is good for AA pilots, bad for Eagle.

What it boils down to is the quote TA is not a TA. It is now legal ratified contractual language thanks to your BOD. The only part that is not signed and final is the actual pay rates for the CRJ-700 if it is on the AA certificate, and how to facilitate the disposition of the ALPA "Eagle Rights" captains on the CRJ-700s.

The ratified contractual language allows for APA to change one item in exchange for a concession of equal value. If you want to go back to flowback per Letter 3 it will cost you. AMR was able to get the APA BOD to sign off on something that AA could not even give you. All parties should have sat down and worked out a fair concession for all involved. Instead AA employees ask what concessions did Eagle take while not even inviting them to the concession table. How hypocritical is that?.

I also think that there is plenty of room for more outsourcing to the Connection family..

In addition to being an idiot, you are in complete disagreement with your own union.

Last one to the bottom is a rotten egg!.

And APA is leading the way to the bottom with their latest ratified contractual language. Unfortunately your union has sacrificed you, instead of giving you the contractual right that you had to fly as an RJ Captain at Eagle until recall at AA.

Now you won't even be at the bottom. You will be on the street for a long time.

 

[Cleared Direct]

G4G5
Wrong!
The date of the CAL/Express IPO was April 18 2002.

So unless you have some special calendar that is POST 9/11!!!!!
You really look stupid when you can't be bothered to do the least bit of research.

I stand by my post. Read it again. I clearly stated before things got even worse. I never said pre 911 moron. I am talking about even worse in reference to cash.

Should I take your word on it? Or do you think that it's possible for AMR mgt to eliminate the agreement?

Yea right, AMR can just eliminate any agreement when they want. Even in chapter 11 agreements are not eliminated let alone just because AMR wants to. Wake up.

Where is it written that you have the right to flow through into an aircraft that has no been ordered(ERJ 170's)?

No one has ever claimed that they could. Who ever said that?

Are you aware that NO EAGLE pilots can be recalled until ALL AA pilots have been recalled? Because our current contract (the new T/A) states that AA has the right to higher off the street while furloughed pilots are still at Eagle(that could be forever! All it takes is one guy).

The same T/A clearly states that the max recall rate to AA mainline from Eagle is 20 pilots per month(their is no min recall rate, one a month would comply with the TA)? How long will that take to get all the furloughed pilots and the pilots who wind up at Eagle recalled? Give it up.

Your new illegal contractual language can say what ever it wants, but if it conflicts with Letter 3 /Supplement W it i very clear that Letter 3/Supplement W prevails legally.

With an IPO the flow through is GONE just like at CAL!.

Oh yea, that is the part where AMR can magically eliminate an agreement. Right?

So you actually think that the CRJ series is going to be here for the long term? You kill me.

No one has ever said that. You keep trying to make up things that Eagle pilots say.

The Eagle ALPA group will fight for our contractual rights. We are also willing to sit down with all 4 parties involved and work out an agreement that is fair and productive for all.

Try to think long term, big picture. If you were AMR mgt would you keep the 25-CRJ's or would you place the big ERJ order?.

We are thinking long term you idiot. That is why we are willing to take a much larger displacement today, to protect our vacancies in the future.

If AA and APA want more small jets or EMB-195s then order them and fly them on AA's certificate not at Eagle. Negotiate good pay and work rules and fly them at AA. Don't try and put them on our certificate and staff them with APA pilots and not even ask us. You are clearly missing the big picture because you are so mad about your future furlough notice.

So genius if CAL got $480 mill just 8 months post 9/11. How much do you think the much larger Eagle would fetch?
Well over a BILLION is the current Wall Street estimate! Executive was scheduled to be sold for $800 million alone! You really need to do just the slightest bit of research, otherwise you lose all creditability.

I am very familiar with the value of Eagle. The market has completely changed since the Express Jet Holdings IPO. The value of the airline assets has dropped dramatically. Even if AMR could find a real buyer, one billion will not last long at AMR under their current situation and you know it. AMR is sitting back while JetBlue and even US Airways are transforming to meet the needs of the future.

That would be mergers and aquisitions court. You guys are toast. AMR is going to sell you guys so fast your heads will spin. Wait until the stock begins to level off. GWB has no choice but to turn things around and if you have bother to read the WSJ or look at the S&P you will see thing on the mend. Just look at AMR stock. So again is their anyone on this board who actually thinks that AMR will leave all that cash on the table?

I will say it again. I welcome a complete sale of Eagle.

That's why you were not invited to the table to negotiate. Take your contract and your letter 3 to your next boss.

We were not invited because it was very evident that AMR needed APA to sign off on concessions and avoid ch 11 at all cost. It is much cheaper for AMR to later negotiate or litigate an agreement with Eagle ALPA, then to risk not getting the hurried concession agreement with APA. AMR knew they could not completely give APA everything they even put in the TA, but it will certainly be cheaper in the long run then to have gone into ch 11 at that time.

You can take your attempt at a Jets-for-Jobs cram down and try it at American Connection because it sure is not going to work at Eagle.

 

[eagleatr]

As an APA pilot you can't seriously think that AMR is actually going to pay to have all you guys come back, and then pay for the retraining of all the Eagle pilots because of the displacements? Management will sing the right song to you guys now, but when the time comes, I bet they come up with a very small number of people who will actually be able to come back.

As for the CRJ, if memory serves, it's supposed to be cost neutral. How can it be cost neutral to have an APA crew, an AA FA, an AA ramper(s), and AA mechanics? Even if you guys would fly it for free, it would never be cost neutral.

 

[resistance]

I pray to the Gods daily that he will grant thy Eagle Pilots their freedom and save their souls from the devil that looms from AMR. Someday (hopefully soon) we will all be in the promiseland safe from the clutches of the rapture we all fear...AMR Corp. Our only peace will lie in the distance we stand from AMR and its loyal servant APA. Some day we (Eagle Pilots) will all say..."Free at last...Free at last....Lord almighty we are all free at last!!!"


NO ScAAbs!!!

 

[WIDEBODY ATR]

Cleared Direct - YOU ARE MY HERO!!!!!! I just can't understand how much more superior aviators just don't understand such simple concepts. Thank you for trying to help them, but I don't think their little world will expand enough for them to get. I do, however, applaud you you for trying.

 

[PacoPollo]

Keep in mind that NO EAGLE pilot would be furlough as a result
of flowbacks.

 

[Goodstick]

No ill feelings toward the pilots of AA but many of us felt as if we were stabbed in the back with your last TA. On one side you preach for unity and on the other you want our hard earned jobs. You rightfully deserve the contractual 450 + flowbacks but what some of you don't realize is that this TA does not put a cap on flowbacks...or perhaps you deceivingly do. Did you know that less then 100 actually flowed thru to AA!!! It seems everyone is conspiring against us these days. Under your TA I may be an FO for anywhere between 10-20 years. We are tired of being treated like the red headed step child and the bargainng chip between AA and APA. Ahh what does it matter...AMR is going down the toilet anyway unless this management gets flushed.

 

[resistance]

"AMR is going down the toilet anyway unless this management gets flushed." -- Goodstick

The sooner the better. Someone need to stick a fork in AMR...it's done!

No ScAAbs!!

 

[G4G5]

You are clearly not informed. Do you even listen to your own hotline? APA discussed this on one of their hotlines earlier this month.

Here is an old May posting that the PDP boys did on it initially when APA first revealed the problem:


________________________

http://www.apapdp.org/pdpblasts/052503.php


PDP Update for Sunday, May 25, 2003

Fellow Pilots,

Many important issues have arisen since the last PDP message. PDP will continue to provide you with information relevant to our industry, our company, and the protection of our careers.

As a new feature, PDP will analyze one aspect of the new contract either through comparison to the old contractual provision or to the contract of another carrier. This week, PDP does a side-by-side comparison of the old PVD (personal vacation day) system versus the new PVD system.

APA BOD Considering Buying Back Supplement W for $10 Million more in Concessions.

PDP has learned that APA leadership may have a case of “buyer’s remorse” regarding changes to Supplement W, the Eagle flowback. Supplement W, had it been left unchanged, would have provided 540 flowback slots for furloughed American Airlines pilots. Due to changes made by the APA BOD during the Tentative Agreement process, the number of flowback slots available is now less than 100, eliminating potential employment for 440 furloughed American Airlines pilots.

There is no doubt that the new flowback procedure represents a substantial concession. While APA leadership has portrayed our current flowback as a furlough mitigation measure and an improvement over the old Supplement W, this is clearly not the case.

We have learned that APA leadership negotiated the new flowback agreement without the approval of the pilots of American Eagle, who were signatories to the original Supplement W. As a result, APA is subject to legal action by ALPA in this matter- legal action that has a significant probability of success.

As a result, APA may attempt to execute the “buyer’s remorse” clause in the contract that would allow us to regain the original Supplement W agreement. APA would have to provide an additional concession worth $10 million to AMR in exchange for the original Supplement W. Exercising the “buyer’s remorse” clause in this matter would be APA’s last opportunity to change the terms of the agreement prior to the amendable date.

American Airlines has provided the APA BOD with a laundry list of concessionary items that they claim is worth $10 million. Note that the concession would not be limited to one year, but would be annual, reducing in amount as the term of the contract progressed.

PDP is concerned that APA leadership failed to execute due diligence in this matter. Correcting this mistake may have the dual consequence of additional concessions as well as the waste of the one-time “buyer’s remorse” clause in our collective bargaining agreement.
_______________________

Since then it has been revealed that the 10 million would only cover the estimated cost to just train the first year of APA pilots at Eagle. This did not include the domino training costs and the following years of training costs. AMR estimates that the total costs will exceed 45 million depending on the exact number that choose to go to Eagle. Get informed.

What it boils down to is the quote TA is not a TA. It is now legal ratified contractual language thanks to your BOD. The only part that is not signed and final is the actual pay rates for the CRJ-700 if it is on the AA certificate, and how to facilitate the disposition of the ALPA "Eagle Rights" captains on the CRJ-700s.

The ratified contractual language allows for APA to change one item in exchange for a concession of equal value. If you want to go back to flowback per Letter 3 it will cost you. AMR was able to get the APA BOD to sign off on something that AA could not even give you. All parties should have sat down and worked out a fair concession for all involved. Instead AA employees ask what concessions did Eagle take while not even inviting them to the concession table. How hypocritical is that?.



In addition to being an idiot, you are in complete disagreement with your own union.



And APA is leading the way to the bottom with their latest ratified contractual language. Unfortunately your union has sacrificed you, instead of giving you the contractual right that you had to fly as an RJ Captain at Eagle until recall at AA.

Now you won't even be at the bottom. You will be on the street for a long time.

G4G5
I come back from a 3 day to read this load of crap, geeze.


The APA DOES NOT have the power to change the Eagle contract. Get that through your stupid head. Only AMR can do that not the AA pilots! We can't just walk into Centerport and demand that AMR mgt change the Eagle contract.

Why should the APA have gotten involved with Eagle concessions when we can't change your contract? We negotiated for ourselves. You pay dues to ALPA not us. So ask them why you were not invited?

I quote:"Instead AA employees ask what concessions did Eagle take while not even inviting them to the concession table. "


This is where you are an absolute idiot. The APA pilots gave away 2000-3000 jobs, Scope concessions and work rules valued at well over a $800 million and all you can retorte with is "we weren't invited".

Daaaa I can imagine the phone call. Hello this is John Darrah calling. We are giving away everything, you guys want to chip in"

Instead you guys GAVE UP NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't try to use the "we weren't asked" defence. The reason that the APA, TWU and APFA members are all pissed at Eagle is because we gave back $1.8 BILLION to AMR and you gave back NOTHING. We weren't asked, is not going to cut it. We contributed to the concessions needed to save your AS. Fact without the employees of AA, Eagle would now be in BK court with your complete contract up for renegotiation(everything not just a few hundered flow back jobs). Just like UAL's. Yours would have been up for section 1113 abrogation, just like ours.

I would not get too wrapped around the axle about what the PDP has to say. Take a look at their web site. It has LESS THEN 50 members. Your getting to be worse than the NY TImes. The PDP left out the AX code exchange arbitration. It has not been settled and AMR mgt is fully aware of this. If they try to mess with the TA or ask for $10 mill, it could wind up costing them more. But the PD left this tid bit out.

What the PDP also left out is the FACT that AMR mgt wanted to get rid of Sup W/letter 3. That is why it is COSTING the APA members $10 million to keep it. So in essence we are PAYING $10 million so that when things get better Ealge pilots can still keep their number and flow up. The orignal sup W allowed AA pilots to displace the Eagle rights pilots the new sup W only allows AA pilots to take newly created jobs. Try to remember that it is AMR mgt who wants to get rid of letter 3/ supW. This is evident by the FACT that mt is charging the APA $10 mill for it. So get over this whole the APA is screwing us, line of crap.

I quote"And APA is leading the way to the bottom with their latest ratified contractual language. "

No the basic conception here is we did what would have been done to us in a BK court, see UAL. Now please tell me how your currrent contract, under no BK pressure. Did anything to up hold the profession. Take a long look at your own agreement before you even think about making pathetic statements about ours.

I quote, "You will be on the street for a long time."

This is probably the single most stupid statement I have ever read but I expect it from you. Just your version of lowering your own personal bar, once again.

I won't get into it right now but I already have a new job.

 

[G4G5]

I stand by my post. Read it again. I clearly stated before things got even worse. I never said pre 911 moron. I am talking about even worse in reference to cash.

G4G5
Your pathetic. Here is what you said and I quote (for all to read scroll up)

"The Express Jet Holdings deal was done before things got even worse."

When I informed you that you were incorrect you ran and hid. Fact, The Express deal was cut just 8 months after 9/11. You state, "before things got worse". I am pretty sure that all would agree(except you) that things were pretty bad and the industry/economy was in a spiral back in April of 2002.

Yet CAL was able to get almost half a billion dollars with the IPO and you brush it off. You are truly pathetic. Anyone who pays attention to the industry would remember that back in April of 2002 the IPO market was so bad that Jet Blue decided to hold off their IPO until the fall. But heck according to you, we are talking about at time when things weren't all that bad
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Cleared Direct:
Yea right, AMR can just eliminate any agreement when they want. Even in chapter 11 agreements are not eliminated let alone just because AMR wants to. Wake up.

G4G5
Again you are WRONG!

Section 1113 of the BK code allows for the abrogation of any portion or all of a labor agreement. FACT! This was used as a threat in the UAL BK. Do just a little research, please.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cleared Direct:
Your new illegal contractual language can say what ever it wants, but if it conflicts with Letter 3 /Supplement W it i very clear that Letter 3/Supplement W prevails legally.

G4G5
This will be going to an arbitrator or a Judge and he will most definatly look at the state of the airline. The Fact that the airline is current $20 BILLION in debt and that that the APA gave back $660 million will most definatly come up. The fact that the Eagle pilots gave up NOTHING will also, no doubt come up.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cleared Direct:
Oh yea, that is the part where AMR can magically eliminate an agreement. Right?

G4G5:
I am all for going to court, I want to see what ALPA Eagle has to say when the judge/arbitrator asks, "what did you folks contribute to the survival of AMR? It's a fact that AMR was minutes away from BK and section 1113 abrogation of the APA and Eagles contract, but heck you guys would have been fine because the BK judge would never had forced you guys to give up a thing, yeah right( the BK law states that all labor groups give EQUALLY).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cleared Direct:
The Eagle ALPA group will fight for our contractual rights. We are also willing to sit down with all 4 parties involved and work out an agreement that is fair and productive for all.

G4G5
The APA can not change your contract! We can not negotiate for you. You guys need to do that for yourself. SO DO IT! Don't sit here and moan that the big bad APA is screwing us.

No, that big bad APA is "working" for it's dues paying members. AMR is screwing you, just like they screw us. Heck AMR mgt even offered to GIVE us the CRJ70's with that contract TA of 1990.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------


Cleared Direct:
We are thinking long term you idiot. That is why we are willing to take a much larger displacement today, to protect our vacancies in the future.

If AA and APA want more small jets or EMB-195s then order them and fly them on AA's certificate not at Eagle. Negotiate good pay and work rules and fly them at AA. Don't try and put them on our certificate and staff them with APA pilots and not even ask us. You are clearly missing the big picture because you are so mad about your future furlough notice.

G4G5
Since when does the APA purchase aircraft?

We can't do a thing until AMR mgt places the order. Until then the current agreement states that their is a flow up and a flow down.

I am not getting furloughed. I am taking a PLA. So I can speak clearly on this because it does not effect me, at all.

I never applied to Eagle nor do I plan on working at Eagle (corporate is my alternate) But.

Their are quite a few APA members that don't have that luxery and need to flow back to the jobs that sup W created. These folks have as much right to a job as the Eagle pilots who are now at AA. It's a two way street. Eagle pilots have excersied their right to fly at AA. Eagle pilots currently have seniority numbers at AA.

How many AA pilots have seniority numbers at Eagle? How many are currently flying at Eagle. Sup W works both ways, that's a simple fact that you need to get throught your head. It's was not designed just to have Eagle pilots flow onto our list
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Cleared Direct:
I am very familiar with the value of Eagle. The market has completely changed since the Express Jet Holdings IPO. The value of the airline assets has dropped dramatically. Even if AMR could find a real buyer, one billion will not last long at AMR under their current situation and you know it. AMR is sitting back while JetBlue and even US Airways are transforming to meet the needs of the future.

G4G5
You apparently know very little about the market cap and the value of an airline. AMR doesn't have to find a buyer for Eagle. All they need to do is divest Eagle as a strategic business unit of the AMR corporation and form a corporation (an IPO) with the current mgt team in place. The difference is that they will issue and sell stock in Eagle as an entity and not a part of the AMR corp.

I agree the market has completly changed since the CAL/Express IPO. I would care to say and I would be willing to bet that most on this board would argee that today is a lot better, then then just 8 months post 9/11. All one has to do is stop and look at all of the current, "Buy" and "Market out preform" ratings are on AMR. How many folks were calling AMR a market out preformer on April of 2002 (the date of the CAL/Express IPO)?
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Cleared Direct:
I will say it again. I welcome a complete sale of Eagle.

G4G5
I would welcome the divesture of 49% of Eagle as an IPO. Big difference. Then maby you guys could finally contrubute something($$$$$) towards the recovery of AMR
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Cleared Direct:
We were not invited because it was very evident that AMR needed APA to sign off on concessions and avoid ch 11 at all cost.


G4G5
No you were not invited because AMR mgt felt that they did not need to invite you. After all when it comes down to it Eagle is just a business unit of the AMR corporation.

Ahh now that you brought it up the concessions. Just keeping supw cost us$10 mill, that should tell you that it was AMR and not the APA who did not invite you. If we had you sitting at the table you know that your flow up to AA would not have come FREE of charge. Not when they are charging us $10 mill to flow back.
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Cleared Direct:
It is much cheaper for AMR to later negotiate or litigate an agreement with Eagle ALPA, then to risk not getting the hurried concession agreement with APA. AMR knew they could not completely give APA everything they even put in the TA, but it will certainly be cheaper in the long run then to have gone into ch 11 at that time.

You can take your attempt at a Jets-for-Jobs cram down and try it at American Connection because it sure is not going to work at Eagle.

G4G5:
Just so I got this straight. The APA gave back $660 million in concession, 2000-3000 jobs, countless work rules, Scope provisions that allow Eagle to grow to 660 aircraft, ASM restrictions that allow Eagle to grow to 110% of mainline

ANd you guys gave up NOTHING.

Then when we ask to flow back to the NEW jobs created by our give backs


You say No.

Heck it's not as if any Eagle pilots have ever benfited form the flow up. It's not as if any eagle pilots current have right to the AA pilot list.

You are pathetic.

You give up nothing, nada, zip to insure AMR's(Eagle's) survival and then piss and moan about it.

Eagle is part of the AMR corp and look what you gave up when compaired to us.

Thanks for doing your part. I would expect nothing less from you.