recalldarrah.org

[Cleared Direct]

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Cleared Direct:
I am very familiar with the value of Eagle. The market has completely changed since the Express Jet Holdings IPO. The value of the airline assets has dropped dramatically. Even if AMR could find a real buyer, one billion will not last long at AMR under their current situation and you know it. AMR is sitting back while JetBlue and even US Airways are transforming to meet the needs of the future.

G4G5
You apparently know very little about the market cap and the value of an airline. AMR doesn't have to find a buyer for Eagle. All they need to do is divest Eagle as a strategic business unit of the AMR corporation and form a corporation (an IPO) with the current mgt team in place. The difference is that they will issue and sell stock in Eagle as an entity and not a part of the AMR corp.

Someone still has to buy the stock dork. Oh unless AMR is going to divest 49% of this Eagle IPO for 0 dollars. What you don't understand is that AMR finally got the scope relief that they wanted from APA for so long. Eagle is worth much more to AMR now that they can actually operate with less restrictions. Oh I guess you think AMR worked so hard to get scope relief just to give 49% of its bebefits to some other investors. While detaching Eagle from some of the scope and ASM restrictions does make Eagle more attractive as an IPO, these changes are far more valuable to AMR now.

I agree the market has completly changed since the CAL/Express IPO. I would care to say and I would be willing to bet that most on this board would argee that today is a lot better, then then just 8 months post 9/11. All one has to do is stop and look at all of the current, "Buy" and "Market out preform" ratings are on AMR. How many folks were calling AMR a market out preformer on April of 2002 (the date of the CAL/Express IPO)?

Just check the stock prices of AA, UAL, NWA, CAL, and DAL then and now. Check there cash on hand and value of assets. It is a "buy" because the sh*t has dropped so low genius.

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Cleared Direct:
I will say it again. I welcome a complete sale of Eagle.

G4G5
I would welcome the divesture of 49% of Eagle as an IPO. Big difference. Then maby you guys could finally contrubute something($$$$$) towards the recovery of AMR

Your thinking is about as clear as your spelling.

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Cleared Direct:
We were not invited because it was very evident that AMR needed APA to sign off on concessions and avoid ch 11 at all cost.


G4G5
No you were not invited because AMR mgt felt that they did not need to invite you. After all when it comes down to it Eagle is just a business unit of the AMR corporation.

I guess that is the same reason why they have decided to negotiate with us now. We are a business unit and party to a 4 party agreement.

Ahh now that you brought it up the concessions. Just keeping supw cost us$10 mill, that should tell you that it was AMR and not the APA who did not invite you. If we had you sitting at the table you know that your flow up to AA would not have come FREE of charge. Not when they are charging us $10 mill to flow back.

Both AMR and APA did not want us at their party. The 10 million credit only covers the training of the APA pilots the first year. It does not cover additional domino training/displacement costs at Eagle or the following years. The reason AMR is going to charge you for the training in the EMJ Captain positions is because you (APA) gave up your rights to displace to the current EMJ Captain positions at Eagle. You can change your mind on one item but it will cost you. Eagle's worthless flow up is free because we did not negotiate it away dork. The only table you will see us at is the one at court. Your table will say defendant. You remember that same table where the big bad Judge took 45 million from your allowance for not playing fair.

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Cleared Direct:
It is much cheaper for AMR to later negotiate or litigate an agreement with Eagle ALPA, then to risk not getting the hurried concession agreement with APA. AMR knew they could not completely give APA everything they even put in the TA, but it will certainly be cheaper in the long run then to have gone into ch 11 at that time.

You can take your attempt at a Jets-for-Jobs cram down and try it at American Connection because it sure is not going to work at Eagle.

G4G5:
Just so I got this straight. The APA gave back $660 million in concession, 2000-3000 jobs, countless work rules, Scope provisions that allow Eagle to grow to 660 aircraft, ASM restrictions that allow Eagle to grow to 110% of mainline

The scope and ASM changes are for the commuter supplement as a whole. There is no guarantee that the growth will be at Eagle. It could be at American Connection or anyone else that AMR has agreements with. Other than that, yea. You got hosed.

ANd you guys gave up NOTHING.

Then when we ask to flow back to the NEW jobs created by our give backs


You say No.

You are starting to understand how APA shot themselves in the foot on this one. Supplement W/Letter 3 does not give flowback APA pilots any future CJ Captain vacancies at Eagle. It gives APA the right to displace into the CJ Captain positions that are there today as long as the flowback's AA number is senior to the Eagle Captain's AA seniority number. Unfortunately, your union additionally gave up your rights to displace into the current EMJ Captain positions for 28 million. You want all of our future RJ Captain vacancies? Say please. Is the picture a little more clear?

Heck it's not as if any Eagle pilots have ever benfited form the flow up. It's not as if any eagle pilots current have right to the AA pilot list.

You are pathetic.

About 120 pilots were able to flow up. The AA numbers held by current Eagle pilots are worthless.

You want to know what is pathetic? The intent of the flow through was to give 1 out of 2 of every new hire postions to Eagle Captains. After it was signed AA hired over 3000 pilots (not including TWA) and only 120 Eagle pilots made it to AA.

You know what else is pathetic. APA negotiated the flow through/ flow back as a furlough protection for their members when things got bad. When it came time for APA to really use that furlough protection for their members, APA traded the biggest part of it (displacement rights to the current EMJ Captain positions) away for a 28 million dollar credit toward their total concession goal. APA eats their young. Always have, always will. Apparently they have quite an appetite for TWA pilots also. You can thank your pathetic union.

You give up nothing, nada, zip to insure AMR's(Eagle's) survival and then piss and moan about it.

No instead we don't lose money. We make it for AMR instead. Despite being mismanaged we continue to make AMR money because of our pathetic salaries.

Eagle is part of the AMR corp and look what you gave up when compaired to us.

Look at how much AA lost compared to us?

Thanks for doing your part. I would expect nothing less from you.

I expect both AA and APA to honor the 4 party agreement. If not, we will spank you in court. Oh yea, don't worry you said it won't effect you.

 

[Cleared Direct]

This is a challenge.

Which facts are incorrect? You call me stupid. Prove me wrong all you will be forever be on the patheticly stupid list. So far you are number one.


Apparently the truth hurts.

Hear you go G-Spot Boy. Below is just one of your completely bogus quotes. The major bogus part is in quotes in the middle:

What the PDP also left out is the FACT that AMR mgt wanted to get rid of Sup W/letter 3. That is why it is COSTING the APA members $10 million to keep it. So in essence we are PAYING $10 million so that when things get better Ealge pilots can still keep their number and flow up.

"The orignal sup W allowed AA pilots to displace the Eagle rights pilots the new sup W only allows AA pilots to take newly created jobs."

Try to remember that it is AMR mgt who wants to get rid of letter 3/ supW. This is evident by the FACT that mt is charging the APA $10 mill for it. So get over this whole the APA is screwing us, line of crap..

"Eagle Rights" Captains at Eagle can never be displaced genius. They are the srongest species of the Eagle pilot breed. They cannot be displaced no matter how hard an APA pilot huffs and puffs. They are kind of like a super Ninja pilot.

 

[G4G5]

The above information was taken from 6/25/03's "Live with the APA". Any AA pilot with access to the APA web site can verify this.

Nice try

But just so you know that I understand it here is a quote from the above post that you choose to ignore

"G4G5
I never argued this but what happens to the pilots who choose to have a seniority number on the AA list? These are the folks whose seats are in question. I agree if a pilot choose to remain an Eagle pilot for life then his seat should be protected but if he choose to flow up then, too bad"

 

[WIDEBODY ATR]

G4G5 - I actually feel sad for you. All your life people told you that you are the smartest, the best and I'm sure very handsome. Am I wrong? It's not your fault that you are like you are. Your little world sounds like a fabulous place. I wish I could visit, but I really doubt that two of us could fit. Maybe someday someone will bust you out and save you from yourself, but until then you will just be a regular average moron. Have a nice day.

 

[resistance]

Excellent Post Award goes to.....Cleared Direct!!

I think his views represent about 90% of all current Eagle Pilots. It is a shame over the years how much APA has given back to the company and shown they are very short sided and will scarifice the junior members for the senior member gains.

I said it before I'll say it again....You APA guys f**ked up!

No ScAAbs!

 

[WIDEBODY ATR]

I second that!

 

[G4G5]

G4G5 - I actually feel sad for you. All your life people told you that you are the smartest, the best and I'm sure very handsome. Am I wrong? It's not your fault that you are like you are. Your little world sounds like a fabulous place. I wish I could visit, but I really doubt that two of us could fit. Maybe someday someone will bust you out and save you from yourself, but until then you will just be a regular average moron. Have a nice day.

That's the best you can do?

I ask you for facts to support your statements and all you can do is tell me I am handsome (thanks)

At least with Cleared Direct I can have an intelligent agrument. Your just wasting time and bandwith.

Just like I thought you could not come up with a single thing. May I suggest you take your own advice and stay off the post.

Their's not enough butter in the world to get your big head into my "little world"

 

[Goodstick]

Can't you just feel the love

 

[WIDEBODY ATR]

G4G5, what could I possibly say? Your "facts" say it all. It's obvious to everyone on this board that your an idiot. Any Eagle pilot on this board is well informed to the truth. The crap that you're spouting flies in the face of black and white documents that will stand in in any court (not necessarily an AMR "arbitraitor"). Just look at everyone else's posts. You and your country club golf buddies over there are the only ones that seem to have a warped sense of reality. Now please, shut the hell up!

 

[G4G5]

So what now I am not so handsome any more?

You still haven't come up with a single fact. Just blaahh blahh. I gave you a direct chalenge and all you could come up with was personal insults.

I am done with you

 

[dualrated]

You and your country club golf buddies over there are the only ones that seem to have a warped sense of reality.

I don't care which one of you ladies wins this special olympics sprint. Really. But anyone who thinks the bottom-dwelling future furloughees at AA are "country club" buddies has the warped sense of reality.

It's amazing...just because I'm a pilot at American, I've been compared to Al Queda *and* Thurston Howell III all in one thread. Pick a metaphor and stick with it.

Now, if you'll excuse me...I have to get back to the yacht club. I promised Lovey a martini. I'm hoping to get her tipsy enough to let me peek under her burkha.

 

[G4G5]

Clearly Dilusional:
No one has ran and hid. Even though things were bad after 911, things got even worse later as assets, stock values, ticket prices, and cash reserves were much lower. I will say it again, things got even worse.

G4G5
And I will say it again. In April of 2002 both Express and Jet Blue managed to have successful IPO's. Today's economic enivroment, (in particular AMR), is much better then it was in April of 2002. Now that the concessions are in place every analyst is hopping on the AMR "Buy" and "Out Perform " bandwagon.

So maybe you can explain yourself, "Yea right, just one little problem. Who would invest in Eagle? Get real. The only divestiture of Eagle that could be done today would be to a puppet buyer like the one they had set up to buy Executive in the islands. The Express Jet Holdings deal was done before things got even worse."
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Clearly Derelect:
Airlines still had more cash reserves at the time. Who said things weren't all that bad? Quit making things up Gulfstream boy.


G4G5
Fact:
Express Jet and Jet Blue IPO's were 2Q02
AMR 2Q report for 2002 stated that it had $1.74 Billion in cash. On June 10, 2003 at the Merrill Lynch Global Transportation Conference in Washington, DC, Arpey announced that AMR has TWO BILLION cash on hand. This is what I mean, take the time and do the research other wise you come out looking like and idiot.

Are you trying to tell us that the outlook for AMR and an Eagle IPO is worse today then it was in Aprl of 2002? Or would you like to phone a friend?

A quater billion more cash on hand today then in 2Q02 and with the concessions you know that it's only going one way. The future for an IPO hasn't look this bright in years. Or do you disagree?

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Clearly Dumbfounded
AMR is still not the one that abrogates a contract in Chapter 11. The BK court makes the decisions and not AMR or APA dork. You are the one telling me to do research when you stated in your earlier post that "Eagle Rights" captains can be displaced by AA flowbacks. You are incredible.

G4G5
We already went through this...... I am on record stating that if an Eagle pilot turned down the flowthrough, then his seat is his but if a pilot choose to have an AA seniority number, then all bets are off.
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Cleared Direct(see how stupid the childish names are)
No it will go straight to court. Yeaaaaa, I am sure when making his legal determination the judge will feel sorry for AMR and APA. Good call.

G4G5
And I am sure that the judge in the wonderful state of Texas will take the Eagle pilots best interests at heart VS AMR's and it's high powered lobbiests and lawyers. Get real we had to walk out, shut down the airline and incure a $45 million dollar fine just to get Reno onto our contract.

Yeaaaaaaaaaaa, I am sure that letter 3 and the fact that the Eagle pilot's don't like it, will stop AMR
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Cleared Direct:
Yeaaa riiiiight, again when making his legal determination of the out right contractual violation the Judge will ask what we gave up to help out. The BK court cares only about what is best for the creditors. You should work for the APA legal department.

G4G5
You should learn a little more about airline BK history.
http://stlouis.bizjournals.com/stlouis/stories/2001/04/02/daily17.html
BK Judge Walsh denied the requests of the unsecured creditors because it was not in the best intersts of the 20,000 employees. (I know, I know I am sure the TWA folks will have something to say but that was pre 9/11, sars, the economy, Iraq)

You really need to get a better understanding of aviation finance and BK history before you make lame statements like,"The BK court cares only about what is best for the creditors."

The Unsecured creditors typically get cents on a dollar, if they get anything at all. The secured creditors, get their assets back (aircraft) The banks that provide the DIP and the only ones that the courts cares about. That's why Judge Walsh choose the TWA employees over the unsecured creditors.

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Cleared Direct;
Regardless, AMR did not even attempt to ask for real concessions from Eagle ALPA. Why do you think that is?

G4G5
Why don't you tell me?
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Cleared Direct;
Who ever said APA can change our contract? All 4 participating parties can change the Supplement W/Letter 3 if we agree to. This could be done in a manner that is fair for all. Instead AMR and APA conspired to attempt to change the agreement on their own. Both APA and AMR realize they srewed up in not including Eagle ALPA in their rush to get the TA. They even called for a 4 party meeting to discuss the matter. It was obvious though that they have no real intension of solving the situation in a fair manner. You are right about AMR, but they have screwed you worse this time.

G4G5
AMR mgt did not invite you because they felt that they did not need you. Only time will tell. The APA does not decide who comes to the negotiations. One thing you can bank on, if you were invited, you would have come away with less then you have today. Their was no way that you would have been invited and walked away without contributing to the $1.8 billion that the rest of us gave.

Or did you think that you would have been invited to sit down and actually come away gaining something? LOL.
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Cleared Direct;
Yea, and they tried to pawn them off on you again during the rejected 2 year contract extension also. APA clearly said they were not worth the rest of the contract extension terms. Now they want the things so bad they agreed to fly them for less than what the current CRJ-700 Eagle pilots are flying them for. Funny how things are relative.

G4G5
The TA was rejected because the fine was not eliminated and the percentage increases were not up to UAL's. The vote had nothing to do with the CRJ70. But, if AMR was willing to give the CRJ70 to us back then, what does that tell you about your chances of keeping it?
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Cleared Direct;
I think I figured out why you are having trouble with Supplement W. You can't read. Who said APA purchases aircraft?

G4G5
You did, "If AA and APA WANT MORE SMALL JETS OR EMB-195's THEN ORDER THEM and fly them on AA's certificate not at Eagle."

I could say something insulting but I'll pass.
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Cleared Direct;
That's right and it is defined by Supplement W/Letter 3 and not by some mutant 2 party change of the original 4 party agreement.

Believe me, there is nothing clear about what you speak on. Funny how your buddy "Dualrated" had indentified you as being in the projected group of furloughs in an earlier post. I guess while you are on PLA they can't furlough your AA number. To then go on to say it won't effect you at all, clearly shows your thinking. You spend alot of time posting your opinions about the situation that does not effect you. I guess you are going to resign your seniority number and never come back. Your choice to pursue a job in the corporate world had nothing to do with the furlough. Yeaaaa, Riiiiight.

G4G5
You don't even understand how it works at the airline. A PLA turns into a furlough once your number comes up. Then I am out. No need to resign your number becuase in the companies view, you are going out anyway. What I am doing is giving a guy a job. My seat can be filled by a guy jr to me, who would have gone out earlier.

You are so full of yourself it's pathetic. Get a grip on how it works before you make stupid statements like the one above.

It effects me because it effects friends of mine. Guys with families, who don't have the same choices that I do. Guys who need one of the newly created jobs at Eagle. The jobs that their concessions paid for.

 

[G4G5]

Cleared Direct:
Someone still has to buy the stock dork. Oh unless AMR is going to divest 49% of this Eagle IPO for 0 dollars. What you don't understand is that AMR finally got the scope relief that they wanted from APA for so long. Eagle is worth much more to AMR now that they can actually operate with less restrictions. Oh I guess you think AMR worked so hard to get scope relief just to give 49% of its bebefits to some other investors. While detaching Eagle from some of the scope and ASM restrictions does make Eagle more attractive as an IPO, these changes are far more valuable to AMR now.

G4G5
That someone is not you or I.

IPO 101. The stock will be offered to the institutional investors and investment brokerage houses. They don't care if you or I buy a single share And I seriously doubt that it will sell for "0 dollars", not when Express provided CAL with almost half a billion in cash.

Funds like Lord Abbot (one of AMR's largest share holders) will be offered the stock first. Then banks like JP Morgan Chase will get the rest. They inturn can hold it and sell it for a profit (like they did with their share of the Jet Blue IPO, JP Morgan sold their share of B6 for over $400 million and they weren't even the lead bank). Sure a few shares will trickle down but AMR doesn't care if you or I ever own a single share.

What are you thinking?

You are telling me that,"Eagle is worth much more to AMR now " in one sentence. And in another you state, "Oh I guess you think AMR worked so hard to get scope relief just to give 49% of its bebefits to some other investors"

That's billions of CASH that AMR can use to pay down the $20 billion in debt, purchase ERJ's, finnish capital expendatures (JFK and MIA), yada yada. The only way they get the CASH is with an IPO!

Do you think it makes more sense to be the only major left owning 100% of it's regional feed or would it make more sence to pay down the $20 billion in debt?

AMR can divest 49% and still maintain the same control that it has today. You really need to get a better understanding of how this works. Dork?
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Cleared Direct:
Just check the stock prices of AA, UAL, NWA, CAL, and DAL then and now. Check there cash on hand and value of assets. It is a "buy" because the sh*t has dropped so low genius.

G4G5
No genius. It's a buy because AMR now has every major labor group sign to a concessionary contract for the next 5 years! They have more cash on hand today ($2bill +). The stock is selling for $11 dollars today up from $2 less then 3 months ago. The economy is on the rebound. SAR's is all but history and Iraq is no longer on the front page

So you want to explain the, "droped so low genius" comment?
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Cleared Direct:
Your thinking is about as clear as your spelling.

G4G5
My spelling is poor and I apoloize. It's tough to type when you are feeding a 3 month old. That's the only time I have left for the computer and when she says times up, I often don't get a chance to proof read, sorry. I often try to correct it when she's sleeping
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Cleared Direct:
I guess that is the same reason why they have decided to negotiate with us now. We are a business unit and party to a 4 party agreement.

G4G5
My guess is that it has something to do with the $10 million that AMR wants back from us. Yep that right we had to fork over $10 mill just to keep what's left of sup W.
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Cleared Direct:
Both AMR and APA did not want us at their party. The 10 million credit only covers the training of the APA pilots the first year. It does not cover additional domino training/displacement costs at Eagle or the following years. The reason AMR is going to charge you for the training in the EMJ Captain positions is because you (APA) gave up your rights to displace to the current EMJ Captain positions at Eagle. You can change your mind on one item but it will cost you. Eagle's worthless flow up is free because we did not negotiate it away dork. The only table you will see us at is the one at court. Your table will say defendant. You remember that same table where the big bad Judge took 45 million from your allowance for not playing fair.

G4G5
Ok, I'll see you in court and you guys will get everything that you deserve.
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Cleared Direct:
The scope and ASM changes are for the commuter supplement as a whole. There is no guarantee that the growth will be at Eagle. It could be at American Connection or anyone else that AMR has agreements with. Other than that, yea. You got hosed.

G4G5
I agree we did get hosed and the one thing you can gurantee is that the growth won't be at AA mainline. You want to bet who has a better chance of seeing the growth? AA mgt did not negotiate the ability to take Eagle to 660 aircraft or 110% of mainline, unless they were determined to take it that far. All you need to do is look at ASA/Comair's percentage of mainline flying. That will tell you where this is going.
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Cleared Direct:
You are starting to understand how APA shot themselves in the foot on this one. Supplement W/Letter 3 does not give flowback APA pilots any future CJ Captain vacancies at Eagle. It gives APA the right to displace into the CJ Captain positions that are there today as long as the flowback's AA number is senior to the Eagle Captain's AA seniority number. Unfortunately, your union additionally gave up your rights to displace into the current EMJ Captain positions for 28 million. You want all of our future RJ Captain vacancies? Say please. Is the picture a little more clear?

G4G5
So you expect to get the Scope relief, the ASM relief, the ability to expand to 660 aircraft all for NOTHING?

I don't think so, and my guess is that when the judge/arbitrator see that and combines it with that huge contribution you guys made to stave off BK and insure AMR's survival. Oh yeah that's right you actually think going to court is a good thing.
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Cleared Direct:
About 120 pilots were able to flow up. The AA numbers held by current Eagle pilots are worthless.

You want to know what is pathetic? The intent of the flow through was to give 1 out of 2 of every new hire postions to Eagle Captains. After it was signed AA hired over 3000 pilots (not including TWA) and only 120 Eagle pilots made it to AA.

You know what else is pathetic. APA negotiated the flow through/ flow back as a furlough protection for their members when things got bad. When it came time for APA to really use that furlough protection for their members, APA traded the biggest part of it (displacement rights to the current EMJ Captain positions) away for a 28 million dollar credit toward their total concession goal. APA eats their young. Always have, always will. Apparently they have quite an appetite for TWA pilots also. You can thank your pathetic union.

G4G5
I agree.

You think the APA cares where the junior pilots come from or the need for a 2 year lock in once you upgrade? Or could the fact that their are only 120 Eagle flow throughs have something to do with AMR mgt? Nobody cares where the number behind them comes from, as long as it's behind them.


The $28 mill and the EMJ seats will all come up for discussion. Along with the arbitrators rulling on the AX code share and the $10 million for sup W.
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Cleared Direct:
No instead we don't lose money. We make it for AMR instead. Despite being mismanaged we continue to make AMR money because of our pathetic salaries.

Look at how much AA lost compared to us?

G4G5

And look how much the stock has gone up because of our concessions

Do you actually believe the numbers that AMR gives ust? Yeah right. Just last month we were going BK and then As of 6/10 Arpey reports that we have $2 billion. Funny thing the first pay check effected by the concessions came out on 6/25. So where did the $2 billion come from? These guys are pathetic. Let's not get involved with reported Eagle Profits or how the losses at TWA are accounted for.
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Cleared Direct:
I expect both AA and APA to honor the 4 party agreement. If not, we will spank you in court. Oh yea, don't worry you said it won't effect you.

G4G5
Yep, you'll be spanking something but it won't be us.

Remember you could go blind.

 

[Cleared Direct]

G4G5
So he is only concerned about a few Eagle pilots because all new RJ70 jobs will be going to AA mainline pilots.

The CRJ-700s won't go to AA mainline unless they can be operated under a labor cost neutral scenario when compared to Eagle.

He is only concerned about their seniority and their displament. They could be the most senior ERJ drivers, Darrah doesn't care. No one ever guranteed the Eagle pilots the CRJ.

Can you get this through your stupid head Eagle does not OWN the CRJ 70. AMR does. They can do what they want with it. They could sell it to a holding company and lease it back. They could trade them in on ERJ they can do what ever they want to. They could shift the flying to a third party and wet lease it back.

No one ever said Eagle specifically owned the CRJ-700s. There you are off arguing with yourself again.

I'll make it real simple for you. It's their ball, their court and their rules. You and I just get invited to play and in return they pay us. If you think that they give a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** about Eagle pilots flying the RJ70 you need to think again.

Or are you naive enough to believe that your contract will stop them from doing what ever they want, then arbitrate it. Hello......

Yes AMR does care who flies the CRJ-700. They want the cheapest pilots to fly it. And now your union has slutted themselves to fly it for less than us.

G4G5
You always seem to leave out the simple facts.
The jobs the APA wants are the ones that were created by the APA.

So here are a few simple questions. Answer this:
How else does Eagle get the right to grow to 660 aircraft or 110%?
How else does Eagle get more CRJ's without the APA's concession on ASM?
How were you going to create more jobs at Eagle when you can't negotiate another contract for years?

I made it simple.

Or are you trying to tell me that all the APA's concessions that were designed to create all thes growth should just be for the Eagle pilots.

Let me get it straight you give up NOTHING and want all the jobs?

If APA created these jobs, why don't they create them on AA's certificate instead of Eagle's? It was your union's mistake to negotiate away ASM and Scope relief without thinking the legal liability through. The ASM and Scope relief are for the commuter supplement carriers. There is no guarantee that Eagle will benefit. It could all be at the AX carriers.

G4G5
Wrong again Bucko, BK law dictates that ALL the employee groups SHARE equally in the concessions. Check it for yourself and then think again. Time to change the water in the bong Cheech. The judge would be forced to have the EAGLE pilot make the same concessions as all the other groups. ITS THE LAW!

Now with that being a fact, your contract would have been up for complete abrogation under section 1113 of the BK laws. Again that's the law. You only avoided having your contract completely up for renegotiation because we gave concessions. This will be taken into consideration by any judge or arbitrator that you decide to bring your case to.

You spew so much BS in just 2 paragraphs that even I am amazed. You really believe this stuff you post?

Here's how it works, the Judge can't force AMR to sell Eagle any more then he can force UAL to sell it's Pacific routes. Spend sometime and do some research.

I have a little news for you. No one cares if you make all the money. That's not how it works. The creditor's come after the banks that provide the DIP.

What a truly absurd statement
"Eagle is profitable and should be left alone or sold off to protect the interests of the creditors."

Geeze, do I need to give you BK 101? And the tooth fairy would probably come down and offer twice a much for Eagle.

More major spewing on your part. The DIP investors are creditors. I never distinguished secured or unsecured creditors in my statements.

G4G5
And I got some news for you. The APA out smarted the Carty boys. Who gets the 90 and 110 seat flying?

With that being said do you honestly think that AMR mgt has any intension of operating the same type (rating) aircraft with two set's of pilots, two set's of work rules, maint, FA's, training, yada yada?.

Oh boy, APA really out smarted the Carty boys. Have you seen what huge concessions that you have agreed to? You have got to be kidding. You got hosed big time.

What happens when they want to buy some 90 and 110 seat CRJ's or the EJR 170 series.

What is a EJR 170? Is that an Embraer Junior?

THey have to go to the APA because they own the flying. They have to sit down at the table and negotiate. Hummmm.

Or do you actually believe that they plan on operating an airline with just 25 70 seaters and nothing else between that and the MD80. From here on in, it all must go through the APA and yes they will pay or their will be nothing between 70 and 129 seats.

And while they fly nothing between 70-129 seats, other carriers like Jet Blue and US Airways scarf up most the orders in that range and utilize them to their maximum potential.

 

[Cleared Direct]

The above information was taken from 6/25/03's "Live with the APA". Any AA pilot with access to the APA web site can verify this.

Nice try

Your misquote about Eagle Rights captains was not taken from APA's site. You interpreted it wrong. Even when caught in an undefendable situation you won't admit fault and blame someone else.

But just so you know that I understand it here is a quote from the above post that you choose to ignore

"G4G5
I never argued this but what happens to the pilots who choose to have a seniority number on the AA list? These are the folks whose seats are in question. I agree if a pilot choose to remain an Eagle pilot for life then his seat should be protected but if he choose to flow up then, too bad"

I did not choose to ignore your quote. I just had not got to it yet. You spew so much BS it is hard to keep up with all of it. You claimed you never argued the part about the Eagle Rights captains even though it is clearly in your post. Then you blame it on a quote from APA's site. Then you agree with my statement about the Eagle Rights captains.

You are incredible.

 

[eaglefly]

Cleared, let the poor boy run-off all he wants. You'll never convince him of anything, so why not stop trying. Sparks are flying out of his ears from the bad wiring.

 

[G4G5]

Cleared Direct
The CRJ-700s won't go to AA mainline unless they can be operated under a labor cost neutral scenario when compared to Eagle.

G4G5
I agree but doesn't the TA/contract also read that if the two sides can't come to an agreement with in a year ( I believe so, I don't have my copy in front of me)then it goes to arbitration?

What do you think will happen when the Judge asks AMR, Do you ever plan on operating anything above the existing CRJ70's? What are your plans for the additional 70 seaters, the 90 seaters and the 110/115 seaters?

Knowing that all of that flying goes to the APA and that the CRJ 90 is the same type rating or that the ERJ is all one type. The next question would be:

How is that factored into the cost neutral basis?

The judge will be more then aware of the additional costs associated with operating a limited number of same type rated aircraft on TWO different seniority lists. Requiring TWO sets of pilot, FA's, maint, work rules, training yada yada.

Just by the virtue of the fact that AMR can place everything on one list(APA's) the cost savings is tremendous.

It was cost neutral from the begining.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cleared Direct :
No one ever said Eagle specifically owned the CRJ-700s. There you are off arguing with yourself again.

Yes AMR does care who flies the CRJ-700. They want the cheapest pilots to fly it. And now your union has slutted themselves to fly it for less than us.

G4G5
Again the aircraft was going to go to us anyway. Their is no way that AMR ever had the intension of operating the Same Type rated aircraft on two seperate lists. The eventual 90/110 seaters and the remaining 70 seaters go to the APA.

I agree the wage that they expect us to fly it is pathetic. I don't know who negotaited it but I don't expect it to last very long. Let's face it, this is going down to the wire with an arbitrator making the final decision.

Once the flying is legally the APA's (cost neutral). Then I would suspect that things would change (re negotiations for the pay rate on the 90 and 110 seaters, which don't exist yet and have to be negotiated)

So our union hasn't "slutted themselves". What they have done is played the hand they were delt to the best of their ability. What's your union been doing to protect you guys?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cleared Direct
If APA created these jobs, why don't they create them on AA's certificate instead of Eagle's? It was your union's mistake to negotiate away ASM and Scope relief without thinking the legal liability through. The ASM and Scope relief are for the commuter supplement carriers. There is no guarantee that Eagle will benefit. It could all be at the AX carriers.

G4G5

The jobs were added to the Eagle list only because the CRJ70 is currently operating on your FAA OPS Cert. To recertify it and then move everything over to the AA side would be cost prohibitive.

Not when you can just have AA pilots fly it on the current ops cert.

As far as the feed and the AX code. Isn't it in the contract that all feed supplied at the hubs listed be provided by Eagle? The reason why they were able to get around that with STL is because, it's not listed as a hub requiring Eagle feed.

From what I understand STL is now on the list, so growth should be coming to the Eagle pilots and not the AX folks.

Am I wrong?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cleared Direct
You spew so much BS in just 2 paragraphs that even I am amazed. You really believe this stuff you post?


G4G5
Here you go again, just spewing off with your lame opnion and no facts to justify it with.

You want to explain to me how every major contract with every labor group, supplier, vendor, bank yada yada has been renegotiated in AMR's behalf and The Eagle pilots seem to think that a BK filing by AMR would have left you alone.

You crack me up. You make statements like, "If it went to Chapter 11 the court would realize that unlike AA, Eagle is profitable and should be left alone or sold off to protect the interests of the creditors."

Thier are laws inplace to make sure that not one particular employee group is unjustly persecuted, all groups pay equally in a BK. You can't walk into a BK judge and say, we want all the concessions to come from group XYZ and none to come from group 123. You wnat to try and explain away your lack of BK knowledge, in the above quote?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Cleared Direct
More major spewing on your part. The DIP investors are creditors. I never distinguished secured or unsecured creditors in my statements.

G4G5
No you did something worse you lumped all the creditors into one pool and it was not until I gave you BK 101 that you decided to differentiate between creditors. Heck this is the first time you even mentioned the word DIP.

It's clear to anyone reading the posts that you know very little about the BK laws and especially section 1113 abrogation

Otherwise how do you come off making a statement like,
"If it went to Chapter 11 the court would realize that unlike AA, Eagle is profitable and should be left alone or sold off to protect the interests of the creditors. "
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cleared Direct:
Oh boy, APA really out smarted the Carty boys. Have you seen what huge concessions that you have agreed to? You have got to be kidding. You got hosed big time.

G4G5
I agree that the contract is a royal screwing. What I was saying is that if Arpey has an itension of purchasing the CRJ90 or the ERJ series, their are NO pay rates in the contract. He needs to sit down and negotiate with us. Or do you think that he plans on operating nothing in that seat range while Comair/ASA and Jet Blue swamp the market?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So again I ask you:
How else does Eagle get the right to grow to 660 aircraft or 110%, without the $1.8 billion in concessions made by the AA employees?
How else does Eagle get more ERJ's (50 seaters) without the APA's concession on ASM?
How were you going to create more jobs at Eagle when you can't negotiate another contract for years?

 

[G4G5]

Your misquote about Eagle Rights captains was not taken from APA's site. You interpreted it wrong. Even when caught in an undefendable situation you won't admit fault and blame someone else.



I did not choose to ignore your quote. I just had not got to it yet. You spew so much BS it is hard to keep up with all of it. You claimed you never argued the part about the Eagle Rights captains even though it is clearly in your post. Then you blame it on a quote from APA's site. Then you agree with my statement about the Eagle Rights captains.

You are incredible.

G4G5
This now make the 4th post where I am stating that if an Eagle pilot choose to by pass the AA flow through then his seat should be protected.

Did you listen to the APA Live, it's not on transcript anywhere. You need to phone in live or down load the Real Player file? Hummm.