recalldarrah.org

[Cleared Direct]

I think the APA "funding" of the flushbacks is through concessions, not through dues money. This has already been funded by our 23% paycut and 2500 additional furloughs (which includes me and G4G5).

You are clearly not informed. Do you even listen to your own hotline? APA discussed this on one of their hotlines earlier this month.

Here is an old May posting that the PDP boys did on it initially when APA first revealed the problem:


________________________

http://www.apapdp.org/pdpblasts/052503.php


PDP Update for Sunday, May 25, 2003

Fellow Pilots,

Many important issues have arisen since the last PDP message. PDP will continue to provide you with information relevant to our industry, our company, and the protection of our careers.

As a new feature, PDP will analyze one aspect of the new contract either through comparison to the old contractual provision or to the contract of another carrier. This week, PDP does a side-by-side comparison of the old PVD (personal vacation day) system versus the new PVD system.

APA BOD Considering Buying Back Supplement W for $10 Million more in Concessions.

PDP has learned that APA leadership may have a case of “buyer’s remorse” regarding changes to Supplement W, the Eagle flowback. Supplement W, had it been left unchanged, would have provided 540 flowback slots for furloughed American Airlines pilots. Due to changes made by the APA BOD during the Tentative Agreement process, the number of flowback slots available is now less than 100, eliminating potential employment for 440 furloughed American Airlines pilots.

There is no doubt that the new flowback procedure represents a substantial concession. While APA leadership has portrayed our current flowback as a furlough mitigation measure and an improvement over the old Supplement W, this is clearly not the case.

We have learned that APA leadership negotiated the new flowback agreement without the approval of the pilots of American Eagle, who were signatories to the original Supplement W. As a result, APA is subject to legal action by ALPA in this matter- legal action that has a significant probability of success.

As a result, APA may attempt to execute the “buyer’s remorse” clause in the contract that would allow us to regain the original Supplement W agreement. APA would have to provide an additional concession worth $10 million to AMR in exchange for the original Supplement W. Exercising the “buyer’s remorse” clause in this matter would be APA’s last opportunity to change the terms of the agreement prior to the amendable date.

American Airlines has provided the APA BOD with a laundry list of concessionary items that they claim is worth $10 million. Note that the concession would not be limited to one year, but would be annual, reducing in amount as the term of the contract progressed.

PDP is concerned that APA leadership failed to execute due diligence in this matter. Correcting this mistake may have the dual consequence of additional concessions as well as the waste of the one-time “buyer’s remorse” clause in our collective bargaining agreement.
_______________________

Since then it has been revealed that the 10 million would only cover the estimated cost to just train the first year of APA pilots at Eagle. This did not include the domino training costs and the following years of training costs. AMR estimates that the total costs will exceed 45 million depending on the exact number that choose to go to Eagle. Get informed.

I guess it boils down to this: If you think that EGL is about to experience big growth and a fleet of 660 jets, then the old Supp. W is good for Eagle pilots, bad for AA pilots. If you think that Eagle growth will stagnate at the current fleet count, then the old Supp W is good for AA pilots, bad for Eagle.

What it boils down to is the quote TA is not a TA. It is now legal ratified contractual language thanks to your BOD. The only part that is not signed and final is the actual pay rates for the CRJ-700 if it is on the AA certificate, and how to facilitate the disposition of the ALPA "Eagle Rights" captains on the CRJ-700s.

The ratified contractual language allows for APA to change one item in exchange for a concession of equal value. If you want to go back to flowback per Letter 3 it will cost you. AMR was able to get the APA BOD to sign off on something that AA could not even give you. All parties should have sat down and worked out a fair concession for all involved. Instead AA employees ask what concessions did Eagle take while not even inviting them to the concession table. How hypocritical is that?.

I also think that there is plenty of room for more outsourcing to the Connection family..

In addition to being an idiot, you are in complete disagreement with your own union.

Last one to the bottom is a rotten egg!.

And APA is leading the way to the bottom with their latest ratified contractual language. Unfortunately your union has sacrificed you, instead of giving you the contractual right that you had to fly as an RJ Captain at Eagle until recall at AA.

Now you won't even be at the bottom. You will be on the street for a long time.

 

[Cleared Direct]

G4G5
Wrong!
The date of the CAL/Express IPO was April 18 2002.

So unless you have some special calendar that is POST 9/11!!!!!
You really look stupid when you can't be bothered to do the least bit of research.

I stand by my post. Read it again. I clearly stated before things got even worse. I never said pre 911 moron. I am talking about even worse in reference to cash.

Should I take your word on it? Or do you think that it's possible for AMR mgt to eliminate the agreement?

Yea right, AMR can just eliminate any agreement when they want. Even in chapter 11 agreements are not eliminated let alone just because AMR wants to. Wake up.

Where is it written that you have the right to flow through into an aircraft that has no been ordered(ERJ 170's)?

No one has ever claimed that they could. Who ever said that?

Are you aware that NO EAGLE pilots can be recalled until ALL AA pilots have been recalled? Because our current contract (the new T/A) states that AA has the right to higher off the street while furloughed pilots are still at Eagle(that could be forever! All it takes is one guy).

The same T/A clearly states that the max recall rate to AA mainline from Eagle is 20 pilots per month(their is no min recall rate, one a month would comply with the TA)? How long will that take to get all the furloughed pilots and the pilots who wind up at Eagle recalled? Give it up.

Your new illegal contractual language can say what ever it wants, but if it conflicts with Letter 3 /Supplement W it i very clear that Letter 3/Supplement W prevails legally.

With an IPO the flow through is GONE just like at CAL!.

Oh yea, that is the part where AMR can magically eliminate an agreement. Right?

So you actually think that the CRJ series is going to be here for the long term? You kill me.

No one has ever said that. You keep trying to make up things that Eagle pilots say.

The Eagle ALPA group will fight for our contractual rights. We are also willing to sit down with all 4 parties involved and work out an agreement that is fair and productive for all.

Try to think long term, big picture. If you were AMR mgt would you keep the 25-CRJ's or would you place the big ERJ order?.

We are thinking long term you idiot. That is why we are willing to take a much larger displacement today, to protect our vacancies in the future.

If AA and APA want more small jets or EMB-195s then order them and fly them on AA's certificate not at Eagle. Negotiate good pay and work rules and fly them at AA. Don't try and put them on our certificate and staff them with APA pilots and not even ask us. You are clearly missing the big picture because you are so mad about your future furlough notice.

So genius if CAL got $480 mill just 8 months post 9/11. How much do you think the much larger Eagle would fetch?
Well over a BILLION is the current Wall Street estimate! Executive was scheduled to be sold for $800 million alone! You really need to do just the slightest bit of research, otherwise you lose all creditability.

I am very familiar with the value of Eagle. The market has completely changed since the Express Jet Holdings IPO. The value of the airline assets has dropped dramatically. Even if AMR could find a real buyer, one billion will not last long at AMR under their current situation and you know it. AMR is sitting back while JetBlue and even US Airways are transforming to meet the needs of the future.

That would be mergers and aquisitions court. You guys are toast. AMR is going to sell you guys so fast your heads will spin. Wait until the stock begins to level off. GWB has no choice but to turn things around and if you have bother to read the WSJ or look at the S&P you will see thing on the mend. Just look at AMR stock. So again is their anyone on this board who actually thinks that AMR will leave all that cash on the table?

I will say it again. I welcome a complete sale of Eagle.

That's why you were not invited to the table to negotiate. Take your contract and your letter 3 to your next boss.

We were not invited because it was very evident that AMR needed APA to sign off on concessions and avoid ch 11 at all cost. It is much cheaper for AMR to later negotiate or litigate an agreement with Eagle ALPA, then to risk not getting the hurried concession agreement with APA. AMR knew they could not completely give APA everything they even put in the TA, but it will certainly be cheaper in the long run then to have gone into ch 11 at that time.

You can take your attempt at a Jets-for-Jobs cram down and try it at American Connection because it sure is not going to work at Eagle.

 

[eagleatr]

As an APA pilot you can't seriously think that AMR is actually going to pay to have all you guys come back, and then pay for the retraining of all the Eagle pilots because of the displacements? Management will sing the right song to you guys now, but when the time comes, I bet they come up with a very small number of people who will actually be able to come back.

As for the CRJ, if memory serves, it's supposed to be cost neutral. How can it be cost neutral to have an APA crew, an AA FA, an AA ramper(s), and AA mechanics? Even if you guys would fly it for free, it would never be cost neutral.

 

[resistance]

I pray to the Gods daily that he will grant thy Eagle Pilots their freedom and save their souls from the devil that looms from AMR. Someday (hopefully soon) we will all be in the promiseland safe from the clutches of the rapture we all fear...AMR Corp. Our only peace will lie in the distance we stand from AMR and its loyal servant APA. Some day we (Eagle Pilots) will all say..."Free at last...Free at last....Lord almighty we are all free at last!!!"


NO ScAAbs!!!

 

[WIDEBODY ATR]

Cleared Direct - YOU ARE MY HERO!!!!!! I just can't understand how much more superior aviators just don't understand such simple concepts. Thank you for trying to help them, but I don't think their little world will expand enough for them to get. I do, however, applaud you you for trying.

 

[PacoPollo]

Keep in mind that NO EAGLE pilot would be furlough as a result
of flowbacks.

 

[Goodstick]

No ill feelings toward the pilots of AA but many of us felt as if we were stabbed in the back with your last TA. On one side you preach for unity and on the other you want our hard earned jobs. You rightfully deserve the contractual 450 + flowbacks but what some of you don't realize is that this TA does not put a cap on flowbacks...or perhaps you deceivingly do. Did you know that less then 100 actually flowed thru to AA!!! It seems everyone is conspiring against us these days. Under your TA I may be an FO for anywhere between 10-20 years. We are tired of being treated like the red headed step child and the bargainng chip between AA and APA. Ahh what does it matter...AMR is going down the toilet anyway unless this management gets flushed.

 

[resistance]

"AMR is going down the toilet anyway unless this management gets flushed." -- Goodstick

The sooner the better. Someone need to stick a fork in AMR...it's done!

No ScAAbs!!

 

[G4G5]

You are clearly not informed. Do you even listen to your own hotline? APA discussed this on one of their hotlines earlier this month.

Here is an old May posting that the PDP boys did on it initially when APA first revealed the problem:


________________________

http://www.apapdp.org/pdpblasts/052503.php


PDP Update for Sunday, May 25, 2003

Fellow Pilots,

Many important issues have arisen since the last PDP message. PDP will continue to provide you with information relevant to our industry, our company, and the protection of our careers.

As a new feature, PDP will analyze one aspect of the new contract either through comparison to the old contractual provision or to the contract of another carrier. This week, PDP does a side-by-side comparison of the old PVD (personal vacation day) system versus the new PVD system.

APA BOD Considering Buying Back Supplement W for $10 Million more in Concessions.

PDP has learned that APA leadership may have a case of “buyer’s remorse” regarding changes to Supplement W, the Eagle flowback. Supplement W, had it been left unchanged, would have provided 540 flowback slots for furloughed American Airlines pilots. Due to changes made by the APA BOD during the Tentative Agreement process, the number of flowback slots available is now less than 100, eliminating potential employment for 440 furloughed American Airlines pilots.

There is no doubt that the new flowback procedure represents a substantial concession. While APA leadership has portrayed our current flowback as a furlough mitigation measure and an improvement over the old Supplement W, this is clearly not the case.

We have learned that APA leadership negotiated the new flowback agreement without the approval of the pilots of American Eagle, who were signatories to the original Supplement W. As a result, APA is subject to legal action by ALPA in this matter- legal action that has a significant probability of success.

As a result, APA may attempt to execute the “buyer’s remorse” clause in the contract that would allow us to regain the original Supplement W agreement. APA would have to provide an additional concession worth $10 million to AMR in exchange for the original Supplement W. Exercising the “buyer’s remorse” clause in this matter would be APA’s last opportunity to change the terms of the agreement prior to the amendable date.

American Airlines has provided the APA BOD with a laundry list of concessionary items that they claim is worth $10 million. Note that the concession would not be limited to one year, but would be annual, reducing in amount as the term of the contract progressed.

PDP is concerned that APA leadership failed to execute due diligence in this matter. Correcting this mistake may have the dual consequence of additional concessions as well as the waste of the one-time “buyer’s remorse” clause in our collective bargaining agreement.
_______________________

Since then it has been revealed that the 10 million would only cover the estimated cost to just train the first year of APA pilots at Eagle. This did not include the domino training costs and the following years of training costs. AMR estimates that the total costs will exceed 45 million depending on the exact number that choose to go to Eagle. Get informed.

What it boils down to is the quote TA is not a TA. It is now legal ratified contractual language thanks to your BOD. The only part that is not signed and final is the actual pay rates for the CRJ-700 if it is on the AA certificate, and how to facilitate the disposition of the ALPA "Eagle Rights" captains on the CRJ-700s.

The ratified contractual language allows for APA to change one item in exchange for a concession of equal value. If you want to go back to flowback per Letter 3 it will cost you. AMR was able to get the APA BOD to sign off on something that AA could not even give you. All parties should have sat down and worked out a fair concession for all involved. Instead AA employees ask what concessions did Eagle take while not even inviting them to the concession table. How hypocritical is that?.



In addition to being an idiot, you are in complete disagreement with your own union.



And APA is leading the way to the bottom with their latest ratified contractual language. Unfortunately your union has sacrificed you, instead of giving you the contractual right that you had to fly as an RJ Captain at Eagle until recall at AA.

Now you won't even be at the bottom. You will be on the street for a long time.

G4G5
I come back from a 3 day to read this load of crap, geeze.


The APA DOES NOT have the power to change the Eagle contract. Get that through your stupid head. Only AMR can do that not the AA pilots! We can't just walk into Centerport and demand that AMR mgt change the Eagle contract.

Why should the APA have gotten involved with Eagle concessions when we can't change your contract? We negotiated for ourselves. You pay dues to ALPA not us. So ask them why you were not invited?

I quote:"Instead AA employees ask what concessions did Eagle take while not even inviting them to the concession table. "


This is where you are an absolute idiot. The APA pilots gave away 2000-3000 jobs, Scope concessions and work rules valued at well over a $800 million and all you can retorte with is "we weren't invited".

Daaaa I can imagine the phone call. Hello this is John Darrah calling. We are giving away everything, you guys want to chip in"

Instead you guys GAVE UP NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't try to use the "we weren't asked" defence. The reason that the APA, TWU and APFA members are all pissed at Eagle is because we gave back $1.8 BILLION to AMR and you gave back NOTHING. We weren't asked, is not going to cut it. We contributed to the concessions needed to save your AS. Fact without the employees of AA, Eagle would now be in BK court with your complete contract up for renegotiation(everything not just a few hundered flow back jobs). Just like UAL's. Yours would have been up for section 1113 abrogation, just like ours.

I would not get too wrapped around the axle about what the PDP has to say. Take a look at their web site. It has LESS THEN 50 members. Your getting to be worse than the NY TImes. The PDP left out the AX code exchange arbitration. It has not been settled and AMR mgt is fully aware of this. If they try to mess with the TA or ask for $10 mill, it could wind up costing them more. But the PD left this tid bit out.

What the PDP also left out is the FACT that AMR mgt wanted to get rid of Sup W/letter 3. That is why it is COSTING the APA members $10 million to keep it. So in essence we are PAYING $10 million so that when things get better Ealge pilots can still keep their number and flow up. The orignal sup W allowed AA pilots to displace the Eagle rights pilots the new sup W only allows AA pilots to take newly created jobs. Try to remember that it is AMR mgt who wants to get rid of letter 3/ supW. This is evident by the FACT that mt is charging the APA $10 mill for it. So get over this whole the APA is screwing us, line of crap.

I quote"And APA is leading the way to the bottom with their latest ratified contractual language. "

No the basic conception here is we did what would have been done to us in a BK court, see UAL. Now please tell me how your currrent contract, under no BK pressure. Did anything to up hold the profession. Take a long look at your own agreement before you even think about making pathetic statements about ours.

I quote, "You will be on the street for a long time."

This is probably the single most stupid statement I have ever read but I expect it from you. Just your version of lowering your own personal bar, once again.

I won't get into it right now but I already have a new job.

 

[G4G5]

I stand by my post. Read it again. I clearly stated before things got even worse. I never said pre 911 moron. I am talking about even worse in reference to cash.

G4G5
Your pathetic. Here is what you said and I quote (for all to read scroll up)

"The Express Jet Holdings deal was done before things got even worse."

When I informed you that you were incorrect you ran and hid. Fact, The Express deal was cut just 8 months after 9/11. You state, "before things got worse". I am pretty sure that all would agree(except you) that things were pretty bad and the industry/economy was in a spiral back in April of 2002.

Yet CAL was able to get almost half a billion dollars with the IPO and you brush it off. You are truly pathetic. Anyone who pays attention to the industry would remember that back in April of 2002 the IPO market was so bad that Jet Blue decided to hold off their IPO until the fall. But heck according to you, we are talking about at time when things weren't all that bad
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Cleared Direct:
Yea right, AMR can just eliminate any agreement when they want. Even in chapter 11 agreements are not eliminated let alone just because AMR wants to. Wake up.

G4G5
Again you are WRONG!

Section 1113 of the BK code allows for the abrogation of any portion or all of a labor agreement. FACT! This was used as a threat in the UAL BK. Do just a little research, please.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cleared Direct:
Your new illegal contractual language can say what ever it wants, but if it conflicts with Letter 3 /Supplement W it i very clear that Letter 3/Supplement W prevails legally.

G4G5
This will be going to an arbitrator or a Judge and he will most definatly look at the state of the airline. The Fact that the airline is current $20 BILLION in debt and that that the APA gave back $660 million will most definatly come up. The fact that the Eagle pilots gave up NOTHING will also, no doubt come up.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cleared Direct:
Oh yea, that is the part where AMR can magically eliminate an agreement. Right?

G4G5:
I am all for going to court, I want to see what ALPA Eagle has to say when the judge/arbitrator asks, "what did you folks contribute to the survival of AMR? It's a fact that AMR was minutes away from BK and section 1113 abrogation of the APA and Eagles contract, but heck you guys would have been fine because the BK judge would never had forced you guys to give up a thing, yeah right( the BK law states that all labor groups give EQUALLY).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cleared Direct:
The Eagle ALPA group will fight for our contractual rights. We are also willing to sit down with all 4 parties involved and work out an agreement that is fair and productive for all.

G4G5
The APA can not change your contract! We can not negotiate for you. You guys need to do that for yourself. SO DO IT! Don't sit here and moan that the big bad APA is screwing us.

No, that big bad APA is "working" for it's dues paying members. AMR is screwing you, just like they screw us. Heck AMR mgt even offered to GIVE us the CRJ70's with that contract TA of 1990.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------


Cleared Direct:
We are thinking long term you idiot. That is why we are willing to take a much larger displacement today, to protect our vacancies in the future.

If AA and APA want more small jets or EMB-195s then order them and fly them on AA's certificate not at Eagle. Negotiate good pay and work rules and fly them at AA. Don't try and put them on our certificate and staff them with APA pilots and not even ask us. You are clearly missing the big picture because you are so mad about your future furlough notice.

G4G5
Since when does the APA purchase aircraft?

We can't do a thing until AMR mgt places the order. Until then the current agreement states that their is a flow up and a flow down.

I am not getting furloughed. I am taking a PLA. So I can speak clearly on this because it does not effect me, at all.

I never applied to Eagle nor do I plan on working at Eagle (corporate is my alternate) But.

Their are quite a few APA members that don't have that luxery and need to flow back to the jobs that sup W created. These folks have as much right to a job as the Eagle pilots who are now at AA. It's a two way street. Eagle pilots have excersied their right to fly at AA. Eagle pilots currently have seniority numbers at AA.

How many AA pilots have seniority numbers at Eagle? How many are currently flying at Eagle. Sup W works both ways, that's a simple fact that you need to get throught your head. It's was not designed just to have Eagle pilots flow onto our list
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Cleared Direct:
I am very familiar with the value of Eagle. The market has completely changed since the Express Jet Holdings IPO. The value of the airline assets has dropped dramatically. Even if AMR could find a real buyer, one billion will not last long at AMR under their current situation and you know it. AMR is sitting back while JetBlue and even US Airways are transforming to meet the needs of the future.

G4G5
You apparently know very little about the market cap and the value of an airline. AMR doesn't have to find a buyer for Eagle. All they need to do is divest Eagle as a strategic business unit of the AMR corporation and form a corporation (an IPO) with the current mgt team in place. The difference is that they will issue and sell stock in Eagle as an entity and not a part of the AMR corp.

I agree the market has completly changed since the CAL/Express IPO. I would care to say and I would be willing to bet that most on this board would argee that today is a lot better, then then just 8 months post 9/11. All one has to do is stop and look at all of the current, "Buy" and "Market out preform" ratings are on AMR. How many folks were calling AMR a market out preformer on April of 2002 (the date of the CAL/Express IPO)?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cleared Direct:
I will say it again. I welcome a complete sale of Eagle.

G4G5
I would welcome the divesture of 49% of Eagle as an IPO. Big difference. Then maby you guys could finally contrubute something($$$$$) towards the recovery of AMR
--------------------------------------------------------------------


Cleared Direct:
We were not invited because it was very evident that AMR needed APA to sign off on concessions and avoid ch 11 at all cost.


G4G5
No you were not invited because AMR mgt felt that they did not need to invite you. After all when it comes down to it Eagle is just a business unit of the AMR corporation.

Ahh now that you brought it up the concessions. Just keeping supw cost us$10 mill, that should tell you that it was AMR and not the APA who did not invite you. If we had you sitting at the table you know that your flow up to AA would not have come FREE of charge. Not when they are charging us $10 mill to flow back.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cleared Direct:
It is much cheaper for AMR to later negotiate or litigate an agreement with Eagle ALPA, then to risk not getting the hurried concession agreement with APA. AMR knew they could not completely give APA everything they even put in the TA, but it will certainly be cheaper in the long run then to have gone into ch 11 at that time.

You can take your attempt at a Jets-for-Jobs cram down and try it at American Connection because it sure is not going to work at Eagle.

G4G5:
Just so I got this straight. The APA gave back $660 million in concession, 2000-3000 jobs, countless work rules, Scope provisions that allow Eagle to grow to 660 aircraft, ASM restrictions that allow Eagle to grow to 110% of mainline

ANd you guys gave up NOTHING.

Then when we ask to flow back to the NEW jobs created by our give backs


You say No.

Heck it's not as if any Eagle pilots have ever benfited form the flow up. It's not as if any eagle pilots current have right to the AA pilot list.

You are pathetic.

You give up nothing, nada, zip to insure AMR's(Eagle's) survival and then piss and moan about it.

Eagle is part of the AMR corp and look what you gave up when compaired to us.

Thanks for doing your part. I would expect nothing less from you.

 

[enigma]

I'm so confused that I lost track of the offenders, but some of you need to learn how to use the quote function of this board. It it very hard to get the point of your posts when it takes 90% of my brain power just figuring out who is writing/speaking.

Please do something to clearly diffrentiate your words from the person who you are disagreeing with.

regards,
enigma

 

[G4G5]

Your right that was difficult to follow. Any better?

 

[Cleared Direct]

G4G5
I come back from a 3 day to read this load of crap, geeze.


The APA DOES NOT have the power to change the Eagle contract. Get that through your stupid head. Only AMR can do that not the AA pilots! We can't just walk into Centerport and demand that AMR mgt change the Eagle contract.

Wrong again Gulfstream boy. AMR can't just change our contract either, just like they can't just change yours . The fact is that both AA and APA sat down and negotiated an agreement that definitely changed a 4 party agreement that Eagle ALPA is a party to. Now even Darrah admits that if APA pilots displace into the senior CRJ-700 captain positions before first displacing into the junior EMJ captain positions as called for by Supplement W, then APA exposes themselves to clear seniority liability issues. Even if AMR was the one that introduced the idea, APA is just as bad and just as liable for going along with it. Even APA Captain White said we (APA) assumed that Eagle pilots would rather we displace the fewer CRJ-700 Captains than to displace a large number of EMJ Captains at Eagle. APA negotiators nor AMR can assume or negotiate on our part. Can you get that through your (and I'm quoting you now) stupid head?

Why should the APA have gotten involved with Eagle concessions when we can't change your contract? We negotiated for ourselves. You pay dues to ALPA not us. So ask them why you were not invited?

It is a real simple concept, see if you can follow along OK? AMR was close to Chapter 11 and needed concessions from labor. APA and AMR sit down and decide what items will be part of the concessions on their part. AMR does not want to pay for the large flowback training costs and domino training costs at Eagle that will be associated with the pending furlough at AA.

APA pilots have every right to flow back to Eagle and displace Eagle CJ Captains as defined in Supplement W. APA dicided to give up their right to displace to the EMJ Captain positions at Eagle in exchange for approx 28 million toward their total concession goal. This is your right that APA gave up, not Eagle ALPA. APA and AMR then decided that furloughed APA pilots could then magically displace directly to the senior CRJ-700 Captain positions at Eagle without first displacing the more junior EMJ Captains. This is clearly outside Supplement W/Letter 3.

In addition APA and AMR magically gave all AA furloughed pilots recall rights to all the vacated CJ Captain positions at Eagle as the flowbacks go back to AA at a metered rate of 20 per month. So the senior Eagle CRJ-700 pilot who was displaced by a flowback can't even ge back into his position until it is offered to all furloughed AA pilots down to the last one. This would occur even though he has a much more senior AA number than the guy that is getting recalled to that position. Supplement W/Letter 3 clearly only gives furloughed AA pilots recall rights to Eagle only if they flowed back to Eagle and then were displaced by a more senior AA flowback.

Additionally, instead of either:

1. Capturing all flying done for AMR for APA pilots.


2. Putting all additional RJs on the property at AA and staffing them with APA pilots.


3. Working out some cheesy Jets-for-Jobs proposal with Eagle ALPA. (Which by the way they signed a LOA that outlines a method of achieving a Jets-for-Jobs agreement with American Connection.)

Instead APA and AMR agreed to just magically put all furloughed AA pilots on the Eagle seniority list flying all additional RJs that go to Eagle. Again clearly outside of Supplement W/Letter 3. How would you like it if AMR and Eagle ALPA sat down and decided a new way to magically put Eagle pilots on APA's seniority list outside the flow through agreement without your input? Wake up.

I quote:"Instead AA employees ask what concessions did Eagle take while not even inviting them to the concession table. "


This is where you are an absolute idiot. The APA pilots gave away 2000-3000 jobs, Scope concessions and work rules valued at well over a $800 million and all you can retorte with is "we weren't invited".

Daaaa I can imagine the phone call. Hello this is John Darrah calling. We are giving away everything, you guys want to chip in"

Instead you guys GAVE UP NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't try to use the "we weren't asked" defence. The reason that the APA, TWU and APFA members are all pissed at Eagle is because we gave back $1.8 BILLION to AMR and you gave back NOTHING. We weren't asked, is not going to cut it. We contributed to the concessions needed to save your AS. Fact without the employees of AA, Eagle would now be in BK court with your complete contract up for renegotiation(everything not just a few hundered flow back jobs). Just like UAL's. Yours would have been up for section 1113 abrogation, just like ours.

Lets see. So when times are good, AA is a separate part that does not "share" in the toal AMR profit sharing. When things go bad we should equally share in the concessions? I have a little news for you. The AA unit of AMR was losing the vast majority of the money, not Eagle. Infact even according to AMR's bogus numbers, Eagle made money in 4th quarter 02. Now Eagle contracts with AA on a true "fee for departure" agreement. AA is getting a better bang for their buck with Eagle than they are with the AX carriers.

If it went to Chapter 11 the court would realize that unlike AA, Eagle is profitable and should be left alone or sold off to protect the interests of the creditors.

I would not get too wrapped around the axle about what the PDP has to say. Take a look at their web site. It has LESS THEN 50 members. Your getting to be worse than the NY TImes. The PDP left out the AX code exchange arbitration. It has not been settled and AMR mgt is fully aware of this. If they try to mess with the TA or ask for $10 mill, it could wind up costing them more. But the PD left this tid bit out.

What the PDP also left out is the FACT that AMR mgt wanted to get rid of Sup W/letter 3. That is why it is COSTING the APA members $10 million to keep it. So in essence we are PAYING $10 million so that when things get better Ealge pilots can still keep their number and flow up.

The PDP boys addressed the AX code arbitration and they are still worried about it just like APA. To say they left it out is bogus.

We all know AMR wants to get rid of Supplement W/Letter 3. I got some news for you. APA gave up a large part of their Supplement W rights, and will give up even more if it costs too much. Eagle pilots with AA numbers will keep their worthless AA numbers regardless of APA negotiating their Supplement W rights away. Again, APA can't negotiate away Eagle ALPA pilot's rights.

The orignal sup W allowed AA pilots to displace the Eagle rights pilots the new sup W only allows AA pilots to take newly created jobs.

You are on drugs. The original Supplement W/Letter 3 states no "Eagle Rights" CJ Captain can be displaced by any flowback AA pilot. Hence the name "Eagle Rights" genius. Even in the new illegal ratified contractual language, APA addresses the fact that they have to come to some agreement with Eagle ALPA on the disposition of the "Eagle Rights" CRJ-700 Captains. If you want me to post the specific contractual language that you clearly have not read I will.

Try to remember that it is AMR mgt who wants to get rid of letter 3/ supW. This is evident by the FACT that mt is charging the APA $10 mill for it. So get over this whole the APA is screwing us, line of crap.

I never said APA is screwing us. I will say that APA scewed up though. Unfortunately, under pressure APA ratified concessionary contractual language of which changes a 4 party agreement illegally. The major problem for APA now is that they can only change one item by trading it with AMR for something of equal value. It would have been much easier to have involved Eagle ALPA in the parts of the concessions that changed Supplement W/Letter 3.

I quote"And APA is leading the way to the bottom with their latest ratified contractual language. "

No the basic conception here is we did what would have been done to us in a BK court, see UAL. Now please tell me how your currrent contract, under no BK pressure. Did anything to up hold the profesion. Take a long look at your own agreement before you even think about making pathetic statements about ours.

The environment during which the embarrasing Eagle contract was ratified was worse than any Chapter 11 situation. The contract is terrible, and I will be the first to tell you that we hurt the profession more than any other pilot group for years. Infact, it is so bad that even AMR knew better than to ask for any concessions on the the verge of Chapter 11.

I quote, "You will be on the street for a long time."

This is probably the single most stupid statement I have ever read but I expect it from you. Just your version of lower your own personal bar, once again.

I won't get into it right now but I already have a new job.

It is a terrible fact that a large number of pilots are going to be on the street for a long time. It is my wish that every furloughed pilot is able to retain another job flying like you have. However instead of the pilots allowing airline management to contract to the lowest bidder, we as a global union of pilots need to start protecting our interests as a whole.

 

[eaglefly]

Cleared, I've been around the block with this guy before. You'll never convince him of anything except that Eagle and it's pilots are the crux of the AA pilots problems.

His arguments are a mixture of assumption, conjecture, ignorance and callous pompousness.

You can lead a mule to water.......

 

[WIDEBODY ATR]

Cleared Direct - I'll say it again. YOU ARE MY HERO.
G4G5 - I'll say it again. YOU ARE STUPID! Get your facts right or stay off the board. You're only embarassing yourself.

 

[eaglefly]

I hate to say it, but it would serve no purpose to call him stupid. He believes what he believes and nothing will convince him otherwise (just like islamic terrorists can't be convinced of anything but their viewpoint). There are others at AA who feel the same way.

Lets let the situation unfold and see what happens. The bottom line ABOVE ALL ELSE is that the APA (not individual AA pilots) STABBED THE EAGLE PILOTS IN THE BACK AND ARE ETHICALLY BANKRUPT.

They represented to the public and us one thing, while AT THE SAME TIME did the EXACT opposite of what they represented.

Birds of a feather :

1.) AL-QUEDA

2.) TALABAN

3.) BAATH PARTY (IRAQ)

4.) HAMAS

5.) ISLAMIC JIHAD

6.) AL-AQSA MYRTRS BRIGADE

7.) NIXON ADMINISTRATION

8.) DONALD CARTY

9.) APA

They're all different shape pots and kettles, but from an ethical standpoint they're all black.......and completely bankrupt.

 

[G4G5]

Cleared Direct - I'll say it again. YOU ARE MY HERO.
G4G5 - I'll say it again. YOU ARE STUPID! Get your facts right or stay off the board. You're only embarassing yourself.

This is a challenge.

Which facts are incorrect? You call me stupid. Prove me wrong all you will be forever be on the patheticly stupid list. So far you are number one.


Apparently the truth hurts.

Nice list and you wonder why people laugh at you............

 

[G4G5]

Wrong again Gulfstream boy. AMR can't just change our contract either, just like they can't just change yours . The fact is that both AA and APA sat down and negotiated an agreement that definitely changed a 4 party agreement that Eagle ALPA is a party to. Now even Darrah admits that if APA pilots displace into the senior CRJ-700 captain positions before first displacing into the junior EMJ captain positions as called for by Supplement W, then APA exposes themselves to clear seniority liability issues. Even if AMR was the one that introduced the idea, APA is just as bad and just as liable for going along with it. Even APA Captain White said we (APA) assumed that Eagle pilots would rather we displace the fewer CRJ-700 Captains than to displace a large number of EMJ Captains at Eagle. APA negotiators nor AMR can assume or negotiate on our part. Can you get that through your (and I'm quoting you now) stupid head?

G4G5
What Darrah said was that AA pilots could not displace the senior CRJ 70 captains that turned down their chance to flow up. If you choose to flow up then you have a number on the AA list and you can be displaced. The only ones he is concerned about are the ones that wanted to remain Eagle pilots. So he is only concerned about a few Eagle pilots because all new RJ70 jobs will be going to AA mainline pilots. He is only concerned about their seniority and their displament. They could be the most senior ERJ drivers, Darrah doesn't care. No one ever guranteed the Eagle pilots the CRJ.

Can you get this through your stupid head Eagle does not OWN the CRJ 70. AMR does. They can do what they want with it. They could sell it to a holding company and lease it back. They could trade them in on ERJ they can do what ever they want to. They could shift the flying to a third party and wet lease it back.

I'll make it real simple for you. It's their ball, their court and their rules. You and I just get invited to play and in return they pay us. If you think that they give a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** about Eagle pilots flying the RJ70 you need to think again.

Or are you naive enough to believe that your contract will stop them from doing what ever they want, then arbitrate it. Hello.....
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Cleared Direct
It is a real simple concept, see if you can follow along OK? AMR was close to Chapter 11 and needed concessions from labor. APA and AMR sit down and decide what items will be part of the concessions on their part. AMR does not want to pay for the large flowback training costs and domino training costs at Eagle that will be associated with the pending furlough at AA.

APA pilots have every right to flow back to Eagle and displace Eagle CJ Captains as defined in Supplement W. APA dicided to give up their right to displace to the EMJ Captain positions at Eagle in exchange for approx 28 million toward their total concession goal. This is your right that APA gave up, not Eagle ALPA. APA and AMR then decided that furloughed APA pilots could then magically displace directly to the senior CRJ-700 Captain positions at Eagle without first displacing the more junior EMJ Captains. This is clearly outside Supplement W/Letter 3.

In addition APA and AMR magically gave all AA furloughed pilots recall rights to all the vacated CJ Captain positions at Eagle as the flowbacks go back to AA at a metered rate of 20 per month. So the senior Eagle CRJ-700 pilot who was displaced by a flowback can't even ge back into his position until it is offered to all furloughed AA pilots down to the last one. This would occur even though he has a much more senior AA number than the guy that is getting recalled to that position. Supplement W/Letter 3 clearly only gives furloughed AA pilots recall rights to Eagle only if they flowed back to Eagle and then were displaced by a more senior AA flowback.

Additionally, instead of either:

1. Capturing all flying done for AMR for APA pilots.
2. Putting all additional RJs on the property at AA and staffing them with APA pilots.
3. Working out some cheesy Jets-for-Jobs proposal with Eagle ALPA. (Which by the way they signed a LOA that outlines a method of achieving a Jets-for-Jobs agreement with American Connection.)

Instead APA and AMR agreed to just magically put all furloughed AA pilots on the Eagle seniority list flying all additional RJs that go to Eagle. Again clearly outside of Supplement W/Letter 3. How would you like it if AMR and Eagle ALPA sat down and decided a new way to magically put Eagle pilots on APA's seniority list outside the flow through agreement without your input? Wake up.

G4G5
You always seem to leave out the simple facts.
The jobs the APA wants are the ones that were created by the APA.

So here are a few simple questions. Answer this:
How else does Eagle get the right to grow to 660 aircraft or 110%?
How else does Eagle get more CRJ's without the APA's concession on ASM?
How were you going to create more jobs at Eagle when you can't negotiate another contract for years?

I made it simple.

Or are you trying to tell me that all the APA's concessions that were designed to create all thes growth should just be for the Eagle pilots.

Let me get it straight you give up NOTHING and want all the jobs?
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Cleared Direct:
Lets see. So when times are good, AA is a separate part that does not "share" in the toal AMR profit sharing. When things go bad we should equally share in the concessions? I have a little news for you. The AA unit of AMR was losing the vast majority of the money, not Eagle. Infact even according to AMR's bogus numbers, Eagle made money in 4th quarter 02. Now Eagle contracts with AA on a true "fee for departure" agreement. AA is getting a better bang for their buck with Eagle than they are with the AX carriers.

If it went to Chapter 11 the court would realize that unlike AA, Eagle is profitable and should be left alone or sold off to protect the interests of the creditors.

G4G5
Wrong again Bucko, BK law dictates that ALL the employee groups SHARE equally in the concessions. Check it for yourself and then think again. Time to change the water in the bong Cheech. The judge would be forced to have the EAGLE pilot make the same concessions as all the other groups. ITS THE LAW!

Now with that being a fact, your contract would have been up for complete abrogation under section 1113 of the BK laws. Again that's the law. You only avoided having your contract completely up for renegotiation because we gave concessions. This will be taken into consideration by any judge or arbitrator that you decide to bring your case to.

Here's how it works, the Judge can't force AMR to sell Eagle any more then he can force UAL to sell it's Pacific routes. Spend sometime and do some research.

I have a little news for you. No one cares if you make all the money. That's not how it works. The creditor's come after the banks that provide the DIP.

What a truly absurd statement
"Eagle is profitable and should be left alone or sold off to protect the interests of the creditors."

Geeze, do I need to give you BK 101? And the tooth fairy would probably come down and offer twice a much for Eagle.
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Cleared Direct:
The PDP boys addressed the AX code arbitration and they are still worried about it just like APA. To say they left it out is bogus.

We all know AMR wants to get rid of Supplement W/Letter 3. I got some news for you. APA gave up a large part of their Supplement W rights, and will give up even more if it costs too much. Eagle pilots with AA numbers will keep their worthless AA numbers regardless of APA negotiating their Supplement W rights away. Again, APA can't negotiate away Eagle ALPA pilot's rights.

G4G5
And I got some news for you. The APA out smarted the Carty boys. Who gets the 90 and 110 seat flying?

With that being said do you honestly think that AMR mgt has any intension of operating the same type (rating) aircraft with two set's of pilots, two set's of work rules, maint, FA's, training, yada yada?

What happens when they want to buy some 90 and 110 seat CRJ's or the EJR 170 series.

THey have to go to the APA because they own the flying. They have to sit down at the table and negotiate. Hummmm.

Or do you actually believe that they plan on operating an airline with just 25 70 seaters and nothing else between that and the MD80. From here on in, it all must go through the APA and yes they will pay or their will be nothing between 70 and 129 seats.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[G4G5]

Cleared Direct:
You are on drugs. The original Supplement W/Letter 3 states no "Eagle Rights" CJ Captain can be displaced by any flowback AA pilot. Hence the name "Eagle Rights" genius. Even in the new illegal ratified contractual language, APA addresses the fact that they have to come to some agreement with Eagle ALPA on the disposition of the "Eagle Rights" CRJ-700 Captains. If you want me to post the specific contractual language that you clearly have not read I will.

G4G5
I never argued this but what happens to the pilots who choose to have a seniority number on the AA list? These are the folks whose seats are in question. I agree if a pilot choose to remain an Eagle pilot for life then his seat should be protected but if he choose to flow up then, too bad

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cleared Direct:
I never said APA is screwing us. I will say that APA scewed up though. Unfortunately, under pressure APA ratified concessionary contractual language of which changes a 4 party agreement illegally. The major problem for APA now is that they can only change one item by trading it with AMR for something of equal value. It would have been much easier to have involved Eagle ALPA in the parts of the concessions that changed Supplement W/Letter 3.



The environment during which the embarrasing Eagle contract was ratified was worse than any Chapter 11 situation. The contract is terrible, and I will be the first to tell you that we hurt the profession more than any other pilot group for years. Infact, it is so bad that even AMR knew better than to ask for any concessions on the the verge of Chapter 11.



It is a terrible fact that a large number of pilots are going to be on the street for a long time. It is my wish that every furloughed pilot is able to retain another job flying like you have. However instead of the pilots allowing airline management to contract to the lowest bidder, we as a global union of pilots need to start protecting our interests as a whole. [/B][/QUOTE]

QUOTE]Originally posted by Cleared Direct

G4G5
I agree with almost everything that you said.

Except the fact that you were pissed that they did not ask you to sit down and now you state that they knew your contract was o bad that they could not come asking for more.

You can't have it both ways. If you want a seat at the negotiations then you have to be prepared to give something back. IMHO you were better off staying away.

My beef is that with out the APA's concession their would be Zero growth at Eagle. These furloughed pilots need jobs. They should be able to flow directly into the jobs that their concessions provided
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Cleared Direct]

Your pathetic. Here is what you said and I quote (for all to read scroll up)

"The Express Jet Holdings deal was done before things got even worse."

When I informed you that you were incorrect you ran and hid. Fact, The Express deal was cut just 8 months after 9/11. You state, "before things got worse". I am pretty sure that all would agree(except you) that things were pretty bad and the industry/economy was in a spiral back in April of 2002.

No one has ran and hid. Even though things were bad after 911, things got even worse later as assets, stock values, ticket prices, and cash reserves were much lower. I will say it again, things got even worse.

Yet CAL was able to get almost half a billion dollars with the IPO and you brush it off. You are truly pathetic. Anyone who pays attention to the industry would remember that back in April of 2002 the IPO market was so bad that Jet Blue decided to hold off their IPO until the fall. But heck according to you, we are talking about at time when things weren't all that bad

Airlines still had more cash reserves at the time. Who said things weren't all that bad? Quit making things up Gulfstream boy.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cleared Direct:
Yea right, AMR can just eliminate any agreement when they want. Even in chapter 11 agreements are not eliminated let alone just because AMR wants to. Wake up.

G4G5
Again you are WRONG!

Section 1113 of the BK code allows for the abrogation of any portion or all of a labor agreement. FACT! This was used as a threat in the UAL BK. Do just a little research, please.

AMR is still not the one that abrogates a contract in Chapter 11. The BK court makes the decisions and not AMR or APA dork. You are the one telling me to do research when you stated in your earlier post that "Eagle Rights" captains can be displaced by AA flowbacks. You are incredible.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cleared Direct:
Your new illegal contractual language can say what ever it wants, but if it conflicts with Letter 3 /Supplement W it i very clear that Letter 3/Supplement W prevails legally.

G4G5
This will be going to an arbitrator or a Judge and he will most definatly look at the state of the airline. The Fact that the airline is current $20 BILLION in debt and that that the APA gave back $660 million will most definatly come up. The fact that the Eagle pilots gave up NOTHING will also, no doubt come up.

No it will go straight to court. Yeaaaaa, I am sure when making his legal determination the judge will feel sorry for AMR and APA. Good call.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cleared Direct:
Oh yea, that is the part where AMR can magically eliminate an agreement. Right?

G4G5:
I am all for going to court and want to see what ALPA Eagle has to say when the judge/arbitrator asks, "what did you folks contribut to the survival? It a fact that AMR was minutes away from BK and section 1113 abrogation of the APA and Eagles contract, but heck you guys would have been fine because the BK judge would never had forced you guys to give up a thing, yeah right( the BK law states that all labor groups give EQUALLY).

Yeaaa riiiiight, again when making his legal determination of the out right contractual violation the Judge will ask what we gave up to help out. The BK court cares only about what is best for the creditors. You should work for the APA legal department.

Regardless, AMR did not even attempt to ask for real concessions from Eagle ALPA. Why do you think that is?

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Cleared Direct:
The Eagle ALPA group will fight for our contractual rights. We are also willing to sit down with all 4 parties involved and work out an agreement that is fair and productive for all.

G4G5
The APA can not change your contract! We can not negotiate for you. You guys need to do that for yourself. SO DO IT! Don't sit here and moan that the big bad APA is screwing us. No tha big bad APA is "working" for it's dues paying members. AMR is screwing you, just like they screw us.

Who ever said APA can change our contract? All 4 participating parties can change the Supplement W/Letter 3 if we agree to. This could be done in a manner that is fair for all. Instead AMR and APA conspired to attempt to change the agreement on their own. Both APA and AMR realize they srewed up in not including Eagle ALPA in their rush to get the TA. They even called for a 4 party meeting to discuss the matter. It was obvious though that they have no real intension of solving the situation in a fair manner. You are right about AMR, but they have screwed you worse this time.

Heck AMR mgt even offered to GIVE us the CRJ70's with that contract TA of 1990.

Yea, and they tried to pawn them off on you again during the rejected 2 year contract extension also. APA clearly said they were not worth the rest of the contract extension terms. Now they want the things so bad they agreed to fly them for less than what the current CRJ-700 Eagle pilots are flying them for. Funny how things are relative.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cleared Direct:
We are thinking long term you idiot. That is why we are willing to take a much larger displacement today, to protect our vacancies in the future.

If AA and APA want more small jets or EMB-195s then order them and fly them on AA's certificate not at Eagle. Negotiate good pay and work rules and fly them at AA. Don't try and put them on our certificate and staff them with APA pilots and not even ask us. You are clearly missing the big picture because you are so mad about your future furlough notice.

G4G5
Since when does the APA purchase aircraft?.

I think I figured out why you are having trouble with Supplement W. You can't read. Who said APA purchases aircraft?

We can't do a thing until AMR mgt places the order. Until then the current agreement states that their is a flow up and a flow down.

That's right and it is defined by Supplement W/Letter 3 and not by some mutant 2 party change of the original 4 party agreement.

I am not getting furloughed. I am taking a PLA. So I can speak clearly on this because it does not effect me, at all.

Believe me, there is nothing clear about what you speak on. Funny how your buddy "Dualrated" had indentified you as being in the projected group of furloughs in an earlier post. I guess while you are on PLA they can't furlough your AA number. To then go on to say it won't effect you at all, clearly shows your thinking. You spend alot of time posting your opinions about the situation that does not effect you. I guess you are going to resign your seniority number and never come back. Your choice to pursue a job in the corporate world had nothing to do with the furlough. Yeaaaa, Riiiiight.

I never applied to Eagle nor do I plan on working at Eagle (corporate is my alternate) But.

Their are quite a few APA members that don't have that luxery and need to flow back to the jobs that sup W created. These folks have as much right to a job as the Eagle pilots who are now at AA. It's a two way street. Eagle pilots have excersied their right to fly at AA. Eagle pilots currently have seniority numbers at AA.

I absolutely agree with you.

How many AA pilots have seniority numbers at Eagle? How many are currently flying at Eagle. Sup W works both ways, that's a simple fact that you need to get throught your head. It's was not designed just to have Eagle pilots flow onto our list

Approx 400 pilots at Eagle have AA seniority numbers at AA. Approx 120 Eagle pilots actually flowed through to AA. My head is very clear when it comes to Supplement W. Yes it is clearly a 2 way sreet. The street is paved by Supplement W/Letter 3, and not by some mutant bi-product that APA and AMR agreed to.

This thing is so long it has to continued on next page....