recalldarrah.org

[enigma]

I'm so confused that I lost track of the offenders, but some of you need to learn how to use the quote function of this board. It it very hard to get the point of your posts when it takes 90% of my brain power just figuring out who is writing/speaking.

Please do something to clearly diffrentiate your words from the person who you are disagreeing with.

regards,
enigma

 

[G4G5]

Your right that was difficult to follow. Any better?

 

[Cleared Direct]

G4G5
I come back from a 3 day to read this load of crap, geeze.


The APA DOES NOT have the power to change the Eagle contract. Get that through your stupid head. Only AMR can do that not the AA pilots! We can't just walk into Centerport and demand that AMR mgt change the Eagle contract.

Wrong again Gulfstream boy. AMR can't just change our contract either, just like they can't just change yours . The fact is that both AA and APA sat down and negotiated an agreement that definitely changed a 4 party agreement that Eagle ALPA is a party to. Now even Darrah admits that if APA pilots displace into the senior CRJ-700 captain positions before first displacing into the junior EMJ captain positions as called for by Supplement W, then APA exposes themselves to clear seniority liability issues. Even if AMR was the one that introduced the idea, APA is just as bad and just as liable for going along with it. Even APA Captain White said we (APA) assumed that Eagle pilots would rather we displace the fewer CRJ-700 Captains than to displace a large number of EMJ Captains at Eagle. APA negotiators nor AMR can assume or negotiate on our part. Can you get that through your (and I'm quoting you now) stupid head?

Why should the APA have gotten involved with Eagle concessions when we can't change your contract? We negotiated for ourselves. You pay dues to ALPA not us. So ask them why you were not invited?

It is a real simple concept, see if you can follow along OK? AMR was close to Chapter 11 and needed concessions from labor. APA and AMR sit down and decide what items will be part of the concessions on their part. AMR does not want to pay for the large flowback training costs and domino training costs at Eagle that will be associated with the pending furlough at AA.

APA pilots have every right to flow back to Eagle and displace Eagle CJ Captains as defined in Supplement W. APA dicided to give up their right to displace to the EMJ Captain positions at Eagle in exchange for approx 28 million toward their total concession goal. This is your right that APA gave up, not Eagle ALPA. APA and AMR then decided that furloughed APA pilots could then magically displace directly to the senior CRJ-700 Captain positions at Eagle without first displacing the more junior EMJ Captains. This is clearly outside Supplement W/Letter 3.

In addition APA and AMR magically gave all AA furloughed pilots recall rights to all the vacated CJ Captain positions at Eagle as the flowbacks go back to AA at a metered rate of 20 per month. So the senior Eagle CRJ-700 pilot who was displaced by a flowback can't even ge back into his position until it is offered to all furloughed AA pilots down to the last one. This would occur even though he has a much more senior AA number than the guy that is getting recalled to that position. Supplement W/Letter 3 clearly only gives furloughed AA pilots recall rights to Eagle only if they flowed back to Eagle and then were displaced by a more senior AA flowback.

Additionally, instead of either:

1. Capturing all flying done for AMR for APA pilots.


2. Putting all additional RJs on the property at AA and staffing them with APA pilots.


3. Working out some cheesy Jets-for-Jobs proposal with Eagle ALPA. (Which by the way they signed a LOA that outlines a method of achieving a Jets-for-Jobs agreement with American Connection.)

Instead APA and AMR agreed to just magically put all furloughed AA pilots on the Eagle seniority list flying all additional RJs that go to Eagle. Again clearly outside of Supplement W/Letter 3. How would you like it if AMR and Eagle ALPA sat down and decided a new way to magically put Eagle pilots on APA's seniority list outside the flow through agreement without your input? Wake up.

I quote:"Instead AA employees ask what concessions did Eagle take while not even inviting them to the concession table. "


This is where you are an absolute idiot. The APA pilots gave away 2000-3000 jobs, Scope concessions and work rules valued at well over a $800 million and all you can retorte with is "we weren't invited".

Daaaa I can imagine the phone call. Hello this is John Darrah calling. We are giving away everything, you guys want to chip in"

Instead you guys GAVE UP NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't try to use the "we weren't asked" defence. The reason that the APA, TWU and APFA members are all pissed at Eagle is because we gave back $1.8 BILLION to AMR and you gave back NOTHING. We weren't asked, is not going to cut it. We contributed to the concessions needed to save your AS. Fact without the employees of AA, Eagle would now be in BK court with your complete contract up for renegotiation(everything not just a few hundered flow back jobs). Just like UAL's. Yours would have been up for section 1113 abrogation, just like ours.

Lets see. So when times are good, AA is a separate part that does not "share" in the toal AMR profit sharing. When things go bad we should equally share in the concessions? I have a little news for you. The AA unit of AMR was losing the vast majority of the money, not Eagle. Infact even according to AMR's bogus numbers, Eagle made money in 4th quarter 02. Now Eagle contracts with AA on a true "fee for departure" agreement. AA is getting a better bang for their buck with Eagle than they are with the AX carriers.

If it went to Chapter 11 the court would realize that unlike AA, Eagle is profitable and should be left alone or sold off to protect the interests of the creditors.

I would not get too wrapped around the axle about what the PDP has to say. Take a look at their web site. It has LESS THEN 50 members. Your getting to be worse than the NY TImes. The PDP left out the AX code exchange arbitration. It has not been settled and AMR mgt is fully aware of this. If they try to mess with the TA or ask for $10 mill, it could wind up costing them more. But the PD left this tid bit out.

What the PDP also left out is the FACT that AMR mgt wanted to get rid of Sup W/letter 3. That is why it is COSTING the APA members $10 million to keep it. So in essence we are PAYING $10 million so that when things get better Ealge pilots can still keep their number and flow up.

The PDP boys addressed the AX code arbitration and they are still worried about it just like APA. To say they left it out is bogus.

We all know AMR wants to get rid of Supplement W/Letter 3. I got some news for you. APA gave up a large part of their Supplement W rights, and will give up even more if it costs too much. Eagle pilots with AA numbers will keep their worthless AA numbers regardless of APA negotiating their Supplement W rights away. Again, APA can't negotiate away Eagle ALPA pilot's rights.

The orignal sup W allowed AA pilots to displace the Eagle rights pilots the new sup W only allows AA pilots to take newly created jobs.

You are on drugs. The original Supplement W/Letter 3 states no "Eagle Rights" CJ Captain can be displaced by any flowback AA pilot. Hence the name "Eagle Rights" genius. Even in the new illegal ratified contractual language, APA addresses the fact that they have to come to some agreement with Eagle ALPA on the disposition of the "Eagle Rights" CRJ-700 Captains. If you want me to post the specific contractual language that you clearly have not read I will.

Try to remember that it is AMR mgt who wants to get rid of letter 3/ supW. This is evident by the FACT that mt is charging the APA $10 mill for it. So get over this whole the APA is screwing us, line of crap.

I never said APA is screwing us. I will say that APA scewed up though. Unfortunately, under pressure APA ratified concessionary contractual language of which changes a 4 party agreement illegally. The major problem for APA now is that they can only change one item by trading it with AMR for something of equal value. It would have been much easier to have involved Eagle ALPA in the parts of the concessions that changed Supplement W/Letter 3.

I quote"And APA is leading the way to the bottom with their latest ratified contractual language. "

No the basic conception here is we did what would have been done to us in a BK court, see UAL. Now please tell me how your currrent contract, under no BK pressure. Did anything to up hold the profesion. Take a long look at your own agreement before you even think about making pathetic statements about ours.

The environment during which the embarrasing Eagle contract was ratified was worse than any Chapter 11 situation. The contract is terrible, and I will be the first to tell you that we hurt the profession more than any other pilot group for years. Infact, it is so bad that even AMR knew better than to ask for any concessions on the the verge of Chapter 11.

I quote, "You will be on the street for a long time."

This is probably the single most stupid statement I have ever read but I expect it from you. Just your version of lower your own personal bar, once again.

I won't get into it right now but I already have a new job.

It is a terrible fact that a large number of pilots are going to be on the street for a long time. It is my wish that every furloughed pilot is able to retain another job flying like you have. However instead of the pilots allowing airline management to contract to the lowest bidder, we as a global union of pilots need to start protecting our interests as a whole.

 

[eaglefly]

Cleared, I've been around the block with this guy before. You'll never convince him of anything except that Eagle and it's pilots are the crux of the AA pilots problems.

His arguments are a mixture of assumption, conjecture, ignorance and callous pompousness.

You can lead a mule to water.......

 

[WIDEBODY ATR]

Cleared Direct - I'll say it again. YOU ARE MY HERO.
G4G5 - I'll say it again. YOU ARE STUPID! Get your facts right or stay off the board. You're only embarassing yourself.

 

[eaglefly]

I hate to say it, but it would serve no purpose to call him stupid. He believes what he believes and nothing will convince him otherwise (just like islamic terrorists can't be convinced of anything but their viewpoint). There are others at AA who feel the same way.

Lets let the situation unfold and see what happens. The bottom line ABOVE ALL ELSE is that the APA (not individual AA pilots) STABBED THE EAGLE PILOTS IN THE BACK AND ARE ETHICALLY BANKRUPT.

They represented to the public and us one thing, while AT THE SAME TIME did the EXACT opposite of what they represented.

Birds of a feather :

1.) AL-QUEDA

2.) TALABAN

3.) BAATH PARTY (IRAQ)

4.) HAMAS

5.) ISLAMIC JIHAD

6.) AL-AQSA MYRTRS BRIGADE

7.) NIXON ADMINISTRATION

8.) DONALD CARTY

9.) APA

They're all different shape pots and kettles, but from an ethical standpoint they're all black.......and completely bankrupt.

 

[G4G5]

Cleared Direct - I'll say it again. YOU ARE MY HERO.
G4G5 - I'll say it again. YOU ARE STUPID! Get your facts right or stay off the board. You're only embarassing yourself.

This is a challenge.

Which facts are incorrect? You call me stupid. Prove me wrong all you will be forever be on the patheticly stupid list. So far you are number one.


Apparently the truth hurts.

Nice list and you wonder why people laugh at you............

 

[G4G5]

Wrong again Gulfstream boy. AMR can't just change our contract either, just like they can't just change yours . The fact is that both AA and APA sat down and negotiated an agreement that definitely changed a 4 party agreement that Eagle ALPA is a party to. Now even Darrah admits that if APA pilots displace into the senior CRJ-700 captain positions before first displacing into the junior EMJ captain positions as called for by Supplement W, then APA exposes themselves to clear seniority liability issues. Even if AMR was the one that introduced the idea, APA is just as bad and just as liable for going along with it. Even APA Captain White said we (APA) assumed that Eagle pilots would rather we displace the fewer CRJ-700 Captains than to displace a large number of EMJ Captains at Eagle. APA negotiators nor AMR can assume or negotiate on our part. Can you get that through your (and I'm quoting you now) stupid head?

G4G5
What Darrah said was that AA pilots could not displace the senior CRJ 70 captains that turned down their chance to flow up. If you choose to flow up then you have a number on the AA list and you can be displaced. The only ones he is concerned about are the ones that wanted to remain Eagle pilots. So he is only concerned about a few Eagle pilots because all new RJ70 jobs will be going to AA mainline pilots. He is only concerned about their seniority and their displament. They could be the most senior ERJ drivers, Darrah doesn't care. No one ever guranteed the Eagle pilots the CRJ.

Can you get this through your stupid head Eagle does not OWN the CRJ 70. AMR does. They can do what they want with it. They could sell it to a holding company and lease it back. They could trade them in on ERJ they can do what ever they want to. They could shift the flying to a third party and wet lease it back.

I'll make it real simple for you. It's their ball, their court and their rules. You and I just get invited to play and in return they pay us. If you think that they give a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** about Eagle pilots flying the RJ70 you need to think again.

Or are you naive enough to believe that your contract will stop them from doing what ever they want, then arbitrate it. Hello.....
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Cleared Direct
It is a real simple concept, see if you can follow along OK? AMR was close to Chapter 11 and needed concessions from labor. APA and AMR sit down and decide what items will be part of the concessions on their part. AMR does not want to pay for the large flowback training costs and domino training costs at Eagle that will be associated with the pending furlough at AA.

APA pilots have every right to flow back to Eagle and displace Eagle CJ Captains as defined in Supplement W. APA dicided to give up their right to displace to the EMJ Captain positions at Eagle in exchange for approx 28 million toward their total concession goal. This is your right that APA gave up, not Eagle ALPA. APA and AMR then decided that furloughed APA pilots could then magically displace directly to the senior CRJ-700 Captain positions at Eagle without first displacing the more junior EMJ Captains. This is clearly outside Supplement W/Letter 3.

In addition APA and AMR magically gave all AA furloughed pilots recall rights to all the vacated CJ Captain positions at Eagle as the flowbacks go back to AA at a metered rate of 20 per month. So the senior Eagle CRJ-700 pilot who was displaced by a flowback can't even ge back into his position until it is offered to all furloughed AA pilots down to the last one. This would occur even though he has a much more senior AA number than the guy that is getting recalled to that position. Supplement W/Letter 3 clearly only gives furloughed AA pilots recall rights to Eagle only if they flowed back to Eagle and then were displaced by a more senior AA flowback.

Additionally, instead of either:

1. Capturing all flying done for AMR for APA pilots.
2. Putting all additional RJs on the property at AA and staffing them with APA pilots.
3. Working out some cheesy Jets-for-Jobs proposal with Eagle ALPA. (Which by the way they signed a LOA that outlines a method of achieving a Jets-for-Jobs agreement with American Connection.)

Instead APA and AMR agreed to just magically put all furloughed AA pilots on the Eagle seniority list flying all additional RJs that go to Eagle. Again clearly outside of Supplement W/Letter 3. How would you like it if AMR and Eagle ALPA sat down and decided a new way to magically put Eagle pilots on APA's seniority list outside the flow through agreement without your input? Wake up.

G4G5
You always seem to leave out the simple facts.
The jobs the APA wants are the ones that were created by the APA.

So here are a few simple questions. Answer this:
How else does Eagle get the right to grow to 660 aircraft or 110%?
How else does Eagle get more CRJ's without the APA's concession on ASM?
How were you going to create more jobs at Eagle when you can't negotiate another contract for years?

I made it simple.

Or are you trying to tell me that all the APA's concessions that were designed to create all thes growth should just be for the Eagle pilots.

Let me get it straight you give up NOTHING and want all the jobs?
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Cleared Direct:
Lets see. So when times are good, AA is a separate part that does not "share" in the toal AMR profit sharing. When things go bad we should equally share in the concessions? I have a little news for you. The AA unit of AMR was losing the vast majority of the money, not Eagle. Infact even according to AMR's bogus numbers, Eagle made money in 4th quarter 02. Now Eagle contracts with AA on a true "fee for departure" agreement. AA is getting a better bang for their buck with Eagle than they are with the AX carriers.

If it went to Chapter 11 the court would realize that unlike AA, Eagle is profitable and should be left alone or sold off to protect the interests of the creditors.

G4G5
Wrong again Bucko, BK law dictates that ALL the employee groups SHARE equally in the concessions. Check it for yourself and then think again. Time to change the water in the bong Cheech. The judge would be forced to have the EAGLE pilot make the same concessions as all the other groups. ITS THE LAW!

Now with that being a fact, your contract would have been up for complete abrogation under section 1113 of the BK laws. Again that's the law. You only avoided having your contract completely up for renegotiation because we gave concessions. This will be taken into consideration by any judge or arbitrator that you decide to bring your case to.

Here's how it works, the Judge can't force AMR to sell Eagle any more then he can force UAL to sell it's Pacific routes. Spend sometime and do some research.

I have a little news for you. No one cares if you make all the money. That's not how it works. The creditor's come after the banks that provide the DIP.

What a truly absurd statement
"Eagle is profitable and should be left alone or sold off to protect the interests of the creditors."

Geeze, do I need to give you BK 101? And the tooth fairy would probably come down and offer twice a much for Eagle.
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Cleared Direct:
The PDP boys addressed the AX code arbitration and they are still worried about it just like APA. To say they left it out is bogus.

We all know AMR wants to get rid of Supplement W/Letter 3. I got some news for you. APA gave up a large part of their Supplement W rights, and will give up even more if it costs too much. Eagle pilots with AA numbers will keep their worthless AA numbers regardless of APA negotiating their Supplement W rights away. Again, APA can't negotiate away Eagle ALPA pilot's rights.

G4G5
And I got some news for you. The APA out smarted the Carty boys. Who gets the 90 and 110 seat flying?

With that being said do you honestly think that AMR mgt has any intension of operating the same type (rating) aircraft with two set's of pilots, two set's of work rules, maint, FA's, training, yada yada?

What happens when they want to buy some 90 and 110 seat CRJ's or the EJR 170 series.

THey have to go to the APA because they own the flying. They have to sit down at the table and negotiate. Hummmm.

Or do you actually believe that they plan on operating an airline with just 25 70 seaters and nothing else between that and the MD80. From here on in, it all must go through the APA and yes they will pay or their will be nothing between 70 and 129 seats.
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[G4G5]

Cleared Direct:
You are on drugs. The original Supplement W/Letter 3 states no "Eagle Rights" CJ Captain can be displaced by any flowback AA pilot. Hence the name "Eagle Rights" genius. Even in the new illegal ratified contractual language, APA addresses the fact that they have to come to some agreement with Eagle ALPA on the disposition of the "Eagle Rights" CRJ-700 Captains. If you want me to post the specific contractual language that you clearly have not read I will.

G4G5
I never argued this but what happens to the pilots who choose to have a seniority number on the AA list? These are the folks whose seats are in question. I agree if a pilot choose to remain an Eagle pilot for life then his seat should be protected but if he choose to flow up then, too bad

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Cleared Direct:
I never said APA is screwing us. I will say that APA scewed up though. Unfortunately, under pressure APA ratified concessionary contractual language of which changes a 4 party agreement illegally. The major problem for APA now is that they can only change one item by trading it with AMR for something of equal value. It would have been much easier to have involved Eagle ALPA in the parts of the concessions that changed Supplement W/Letter 3.



The environment during which the embarrasing Eagle contract was ratified was worse than any Chapter 11 situation. The contract is terrible, and I will be the first to tell you that we hurt the profession more than any other pilot group for years. Infact, it is so bad that even AMR knew better than to ask for any concessions on the the verge of Chapter 11.



It is a terrible fact that a large number of pilots are going to be on the street for a long time. It is my wish that every furloughed pilot is able to retain another job flying like you have. However instead of the pilots allowing airline management to contract to the lowest bidder, we as a global union of pilots need to start protecting our interests as a whole. [/B][/QUOTE]

QUOTE]Originally posted by Cleared Direct

G4G5
I agree with almost everything that you said.

Except the fact that you were pissed that they did not ask you to sit down and now you state that they knew your contract was o bad that they could not come asking for more.

You can't have it both ways. If you want a seat at the negotiations then you have to be prepared to give something back. IMHO you were better off staying away.

My beef is that with out the APA's concession their would be Zero growth at Eagle. These furloughed pilots need jobs. They should be able to flow directly into the jobs that their concessions provided
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[Cleared Direct]

Your pathetic. Here is what you said and I quote (for all to read scroll up)

"The Express Jet Holdings deal was done before things got even worse."

When I informed you that you were incorrect you ran and hid. Fact, The Express deal was cut just 8 months after 9/11. You state, "before things got worse". I am pretty sure that all would agree(except you) that things were pretty bad and the industry/economy was in a spiral back in April of 2002.

No one has ran and hid. Even though things were bad after 911, things got even worse later as assets, stock values, ticket prices, and cash reserves were much lower. I will say it again, things got even worse.

Yet CAL was able to get almost half a billion dollars with the IPO and you brush it off. You are truly pathetic. Anyone who pays attention to the industry would remember that back in April of 2002 the IPO market was so bad that Jet Blue decided to hold off their IPO until the fall. But heck according to you, we are talking about at time when things weren't all that bad

Airlines still had more cash reserves at the time. Who said things weren't all that bad? Quit making things up Gulfstream boy.

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Cleared Direct:
Yea right, AMR can just eliminate any agreement when they want. Even in chapter 11 agreements are not eliminated let alone just because AMR wants to. Wake up.

G4G5
Again you are WRONG!

Section 1113 of the BK code allows for the abrogation of any portion or all of a labor agreement. FACT! This was used as a threat in the UAL BK. Do just a little research, please.

AMR is still not the one that abrogates a contract in Chapter 11. The BK court makes the decisions and not AMR or APA dork. You are the one telling me to do research when you stated in your earlier post that "Eagle Rights" captains can be displaced by AA flowbacks. You are incredible.

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Cleared Direct:
Your new illegal contractual language can say what ever it wants, but if it conflicts with Letter 3 /Supplement W it i very clear that Letter 3/Supplement W prevails legally.

G4G5
This will be going to an arbitrator or a Judge and he will most definatly look at the state of the airline. The Fact that the airline is current $20 BILLION in debt and that that the APA gave back $660 million will most definatly come up. The fact that the Eagle pilots gave up NOTHING will also, no doubt come up.

No it will go straight to court. Yeaaaaa, I am sure when making his legal determination the judge will feel sorry for AMR and APA. Good call.

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Cleared Direct:
Oh yea, that is the part where AMR can magically eliminate an agreement. Right?

G4G5:
I am all for going to court and want to see what ALPA Eagle has to say when the judge/arbitrator asks, "what did you folks contribut to the survival? It a fact that AMR was minutes away from BK and section 1113 abrogation of the APA and Eagles contract, but heck you guys would have been fine because the BK judge would never had forced you guys to give up a thing, yeah right( the BK law states that all labor groups give EQUALLY).

Yeaaa riiiiight, again when making his legal determination of the out right contractual violation the Judge will ask what we gave up to help out. The BK court cares only about what is best for the creditors. You should work for the APA legal department.

Regardless, AMR did not even attempt to ask for real concessions from Eagle ALPA. Why do you think that is?

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Cleared Direct:
The Eagle ALPA group will fight for our contractual rights. We are also willing to sit down with all 4 parties involved and work out an agreement that is fair and productive for all.

G4G5
The APA can not change your contract! We can not negotiate for you. You guys need to do that for yourself. SO DO IT! Don't sit here and moan that the big bad APA is screwing us. No tha big bad APA is "working" for it's dues paying members. AMR is screwing you, just like they screw us.

Who ever said APA can change our contract? All 4 participating parties can change the Supplement W/Letter 3 if we agree to. This could be done in a manner that is fair for all. Instead AMR and APA conspired to attempt to change the agreement on their own. Both APA and AMR realize they srewed up in not including Eagle ALPA in their rush to get the TA. They even called for a 4 party meeting to discuss the matter. It was obvious though that they have no real intension of solving the situation in a fair manner. You are right about AMR, but they have screwed you worse this time.

Heck AMR mgt even offered to GIVE us the CRJ70's with that contract TA of 1990.

Yea, and they tried to pawn them off on you again during the rejected 2 year contract extension also. APA clearly said they were not worth the rest of the contract extension terms. Now they want the things so bad they agreed to fly them for less than what the current CRJ-700 Eagle pilots are flying them for. Funny how things are relative.

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Cleared Direct:
We are thinking long term you idiot. That is why we are willing to take a much larger displacement today, to protect our vacancies in the future.

If AA and APA want more small jets or EMB-195s then order them and fly them on AA's certificate not at Eagle. Negotiate good pay and work rules and fly them at AA. Don't try and put them on our certificate and staff them with APA pilots and not even ask us. You are clearly missing the big picture because you are so mad about your future furlough notice.

G4G5
Since when does the APA purchase aircraft?.

I think I figured out why you are having trouble with Supplement W. You can't read. Who said APA purchases aircraft?

We can't do a thing until AMR mgt places the order. Until then the current agreement states that their is a flow up and a flow down.

That's right and it is defined by Supplement W/Letter 3 and not by some mutant 2 party change of the original 4 party agreement.

I am not getting furloughed. I am taking a PLA. So I can speak clearly on this because it does not effect me, at all.

Believe me, there is nothing clear about what you speak on. Funny how your buddy "Dualrated" had indentified you as being in the projected group of furloughs in an earlier post. I guess while you are on PLA they can't furlough your AA number. To then go on to say it won't effect you at all, clearly shows your thinking. You spend alot of time posting your opinions about the situation that does not effect you. I guess you are going to resign your seniority number and never come back. Your choice to pursue a job in the corporate world had nothing to do with the furlough. Yeaaaa, Riiiiight.

I never applied to Eagle nor do I plan on working at Eagle (corporate is my alternate) But.

Their are quite a few APA members that don't have that luxery and need to flow back to the jobs that sup W created. These folks have as much right to a job as the Eagle pilots who are now at AA. It's a two way street. Eagle pilots have excersied their right to fly at AA. Eagle pilots currently have seniority numbers at AA.

I absolutely agree with you.

How many AA pilots have seniority numbers at Eagle? How many are currently flying at Eagle. Sup W works both ways, that's a simple fact that you need to get throught your head. It's was not designed just to have Eagle pilots flow onto our list

Approx 400 pilots at Eagle have AA seniority numbers at AA. Approx 120 Eagle pilots actually flowed through to AA. My head is very clear when it comes to Supplement W. Yes it is clearly a 2 way sreet. The street is paved by Supplement W/Letter 3, and not by some mutant bi-product that APA and AMR agreed to.

This thing is so long it has to continued on next page....

 

[Cleared Direct]

...Continued from page 1

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Cleared Direct:
I am very familiar with the value of Eagle. The market has completely changed since the Express Jet Holdings IPO. The value of the airline assets has dropped dramatically. Even if AMR could find a real buyer, one billion will not last long at AMR under their current situation and you know it. AMR is sitting back while JetBlue and even US Airways are transforming to meet the needs of the future.

G4G5
You apparently know very little about the market cap and the value of an airline. AMR doesn't have to find a buyer for Eagle. All they need to do is divest Eagle as a strategic business unit of the AMR corporation and form a corporation (an IPO) with the current mgt team in place. The difference is that they will issue and sell stock in Eagle as an entity and not a part of the AMR corp.

Someone still has to buy the stock dork. Oh unless AMR is going to divest 49% of this Eagle IPO for 0 dollars. What you don't understand is that AMR finally got the scope relief that they wanted from APA for so long. Eagle is worth much more to AMR now that they can actually operate with less restrictions. Oh I guess you think AMR worked so hard to get scope relief just to give 49% of its bebefits to some other investors. While detaching Eagle from some of the scope and ASM restrictions does make Eagle more attractive as an IPO, these changes are far more valuable to AMR now.

I agree the market has completly changed since the CAL/Express IPO. I would care to say and I would be willing to bet that most on this board would argee that today is a lot better, then then just 8 months post 9/11. All one has to do is stop and look at all of the current, "Buy" and "Market out preform" ratings are on AMR. How many folks were calling AMR a market out preformer on April of 2002 (the date of the CAL/Express IPO)?

Just check the stock prices of AA, UAL, NWA, CAL, and DAL then and now. Check there cash on hand and value of assets. It is a "buy" because the sh*t has dropped so low genius.

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Cleared Direct:
I will say it again. I welcome a complete sale of Eagle.

G4G5
I would welcome the divesture of 49% of Eagle as an IPO. Big difference. Then maby you guys could finally contrubute something($$$$$) towards the recovery of AMR

Your thinking is about as clear as your spelling.

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Cleared Direct:
We were not invited because it was very evident that AMR needed APA to sign off on concessions and avoid ch 11 at all cost.


G4G5
No you were not invited because AMR mgt felt that they did not need to invite you. After all when it comes down to it Eagle is just a business unit of the AMR corporation.

I guess that is the same reason why they have decided to negotiate with us now. We are a business unit and party to a 4 party agreement.

Ahh now that you brought it up the concessions. Just keeping supw cost us$10 mill, that should tell you that it was AMR and not the APA who did not invite you. If we had you sitting at the table you know that your flow up to AA would not have come FREE of charge. Not when they are charging us $10 mill to flow back.

Both AMR and APA did not want us at their party. The 10 million credit only covers the training of the APA pilots the first year. It does not cover additional domino training/displacement costs at Eagle or the following years. The reason AMR is going to charge you for the training in the EMJ Captain positions is because you (APA) gave up your rights to displace to the current EMJ Captain positions at Eagle. You can change your mind on one item but it will cost you. Eagle's worthless flow up is free because we did not negotiate it away dork. The only table you will see us at is the one at court. Your table will say defendant. You remember that same table where the big bad Judge took 45 million from your allowance for not playing fair.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cleared Direct:
It is much cheaper for AMR to later negotiate or litigate an agreement with Eagle ALPA, then to risk not getting the hurried concession agreement with APA. AMR knew they could not completely give APA everything they even put in the TA, but it will certainly be cheaper in the long run then to have gone into ch 11 at that time.

You can take your attempt at a Jets-for-Jobs cram down and try it at American Connection because it sure is not going to work at Eagle.

G4G5:
Just so I got this straight. The APA gave back $660 million in concession, 2000-3000 jobs, countless work rules, Scope provisions that allow Eagle to grow to 660 aircraft, ASM restrictions that allow Eagle to grow to 110% of mainline

The scope and ASM changes are for the commuter supplement as a whole. There is no guarantee that the growth will be at Eagle. It could be at American Connection or anyone else that AMR has agreements with. Other than that, yea. You got hosed.

ANd you guys gave up NOTHING.

Then when we ask to flow back to the NEW jobs created by our give backs


You say No.

You are starting to understand how APA shot themselves in the foot on this one. Supplement W/Letter 3 does not give flowback APA pilots any future CJ Captain vacancies at Eagle. It gives APA the right to displace into the CJ Captain positions that are there today as long as the flowback's AA number is senior to the Eagle Captain's AA seniority number. Unfortunately, your union additionally gave up your rights to displace into the current EMJ Captain positions for 28 million. You want all of our future RJ Captain vacancies? Say please. Is the picture a little more clear?

Heck it's not as if any Eagle pilots have ever benfited form the flow up. It's not as if any eagle pilots current have right to the AA pilot list.

You are pathetic.

About 120 pilots were able to flow up. The AA numbers held by current Eagle pilots are worthless.

You want to know what is pathetic? The intent of the flow through was to give 1 out of 2 of every new hire postions to Eagle Captains. After it was signed AA hired over 3000 pilots (not including TWA) and only 120 Eagle pilots made it to AA.

You know what else is pathetic. APA negotiated the flow through/ flow back as a furlough protection for their members when things got bad. When it came time for APA to really use that furlough protection for their members, APA traded the biggest part of it (displacement rights to the current EMJ Captain positions) away for a 28 million dollar credit toward their total concession goal. APA eats their young. Always have, always will. Apparently they have quite an appetite for TWA pilots also. You can thank your pathetic union.

You give up nothing, nada, zip to insure AMR's(Eagle's) survival and then piss and moan about it.

No instead we don't lose money. We make it for AMR instead. Despite being mismanaged we continue to make AMR money because of our pathetic salaries.

Eagle is part of the AMR corp and look what you gave up when compaired to us.

Look at how much AA lost compared to us?

Thanks for doing your part. I would expect nothing less from you.

I expect both AA and APA to honor the 4 party agreement. If not, we will spank you in court. Oh yea, don't worry you said it won't effect you.

 

[Cleared Direct]

This is a challenge.

Which facts are incorrect? You call me stupid. Prove me wrong all you will be forever be on the patheticly stupid list. So far you are number one.


Apparently the truth hurts.

Hear you go G-Spot Boy. Below is just one of your completely bogus quotes. The major bogus part is in quotes in the middle:

What the PDP also left out is the FACT that AMR mgt wanted to get rid of Sup W/letter 3. That is why it is COSTING the APA members $10 million to keep it. So in essence we are PAYING $10 million so that when things get better Ealge pilots can still keep their number and flow up.

"The orignal sup W allowed AA pilots to displace the Eagle rights pilots the new sup W only allows AA pilots to take newly created jobs."

Try to remember that it is AMR mgt who wants to get rid of letter 3/ supW. This is evident by the FACT that mt is charging the APA $10 mill for it. So get over this whole the APA is screwing us, line of crap..

"Eagle Rights" Captains at Eagle can never be displaced genius. They are the srongest species of the Eagle pilot breed. They cannot be displaced no matter how hard an APA pilot huffs and puffs. They are kind of like a super Ninja pilot.

 

[G4G5]

The above information was taken from 6/25/03's "Live with the APA". Any AA pilot with access to the APA web site can verify this.

Nice try

But just so you know that I understand it here is a quote from the above post that you choose to ignore

"G4G5
I never argued this but what happens to the pilots who choose to have a seniority number on the AA list? These are the folks whose seats are in question. I agree if a pilot choose to remain an Eagle pilot for life then his seat should be protected but if he choose to flow up then, too bad"

 

[WIDEBODY ATR]

G4G5 - I actually feel sad for you. All your life people told you that you are the smartest, the best and I'm sure very handsome. Am I wrong? It's not your fault that you are like you are. Your little world sounds like a fabulous place. I wish I could visit, but I really doubt that two of us could fit. Maybe someday someone will bust you out and save you from yourself, but until then you will just be a regular average moron. Have a nice day.

 

[resistance]

Excellent Post Award goes to.....Cleared Direct!!

I think his views represent about 90% of all current Eagle Pilots. It is a shame over the years how much APA has given back to the company and shown they are very short sided and will scarifice the junior members for the senior member gains.

I said it before I'll say it again....You APA guys f**ked up!

No ScAAbs!

 

[WIDEBODY ATR]

I second that!

 

[G4G5]

G4G5 - I actually feel sad for you. All your life people told you that you are the smartest, the best and I'm sure very handsome. Am I wrong? It's not your fault that you are like you are. Your little world sounds like a fabulous place. I wish I could visit, but I really doubt that two of us could fit. Maybe someday someone will bust you out and save you from yourself, but until then you will just be a regular average moron. Have a nice day.

That's the best you can do?

I ask you for facts to support your statements and all you can do is tell me I am handsome (thanks)

At least with Cleared Direct I can have an intelligent agrument. Your just wasting time and bandwith.

Just like I thought you could not come up with a single thing. May I suggest you take your own advice and stay off the post.

Their's not enough butter in the world to get your big head into my "little world"

 

[Goodstick]

Can't you just feel the love

 

[WIDEBODY ATR]

G4G5, what could I possibly say? Your "facts" say it all. It's obvious to everyone on this board that your an idiot. Any Eagle pilot on this board is well informed to the truth. The crap that you're spouting flies in the face of black and white documents that will stand in in any court (not necessarily an AMR "arbitraitor"). Just look at everyone else's posts. You and your country club golf buddies over there are the only ones that seem to have a warped sense of reality. Now please, shut the hell up!

 

[G4G5]

So what now I am not so handsome any more?

You still haven't come up with a single fact. Just blaahh blahh. I gave you a direct chalenge and all you could come up with was personal insults.

I am done with you

 

[dualrated]

You and your country club golf buddies over there are the only ones that seem to have a warped sense of reality.

I don't care which one of you ladies wins this special olympics sprint. Really. But anyone who thinks the bottom-dwelling future furloughees at AA are "country club" buddies has the warped sense of reality.

It's amazing...just because I'm a pilot at American, I've been compared to Al Queda *and* Thurston Howell III all in one thread. Pick a metaphor and stick with it.

Now, if you'll excuse me...I have to get back to the yacht club. I promised Lovey a martini. I'm hoping to get her tipsy enough to let me peek under her burkha.

 

[G4G5]

Clearly Dilusional:
No one has ran and hid. Even though things were bad after 911, things got even worse later as assets, stock values, ticket prices, and cash reserves were much lower. I will say it again, things got even worse.

G4G5
And I will say it again. In April of 2002 both Express and Jet Blue managed to have successful IPO's. Today's economic enivroment, (in particular AMR), is much better then it was in April of 2002. Now that the concessions are in place every analyst is hopping on the AMR "Buy" and "Out Perform " bandwagon.

So maybe you can explain yourself, "Yea right, just one little problem. Who would invest in Eagle? Get real. The only divestiture of Eagle that could be done today would be to a puppet buyer like the one they had set up to buy Executive in the islands. The Express Jet Holdings deal was done before things got even worse."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Clearly Derelect:
Airlines still had more cash reserves at the time. Who said things weren't all that bad? Quit making things up Gulfstream boy.


G4G5
Fact:
Express Jet and Jet Blue IPO's were 2Q02
AMR 2Q report for 2002 stated that it had $1.74 Billion in cash. On June 10, 2003 at the Merrill Lynch Global Transportation Conference in Washington, DC, Arpey announced that AMR has TWO BILLION cash on hand. This is what I mean, take the time and do the research other wise you come out looking like and idiot.

Are you trying to tell us that the outlook for AMR and an Eagle IPO is worse today then it was in Aprl of 2002? Or would you like to phone a friend?

A quater billion more cash on hand today then in 2Q02 and with the concessions you know that it's only going one way. The future for an IPO hasn't look this bright in years. Or do you disagree?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clearly Dumbfounded
AMR is still not the one that abrogates a contract in Chapter 11. The BK court makes the decisions and not AMR or APA dork. You are the one telling me to do research when you stated in your earlier post that "Eagle Rights" captains can be displaced by AA flowbacks. You are incredible.

G4G5
We already went through this...... I am on record stating that if an Eagle pilot turned down the flowthrough, then his seat is his but if a pilot choose to have an AA seniority number, then all bets are off.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cleared Direct(see how stupid the childish names are)
No it will go straight to court. Yeaaaaa, I am sure when making his legal determination the judge will feel sorry for AMR and APA. Good call.

G4G5
And I am sure that the judge in the wonderful state of Texas will take the Eagle pilots best interests at heart VS AMR's and it's high powered lobbiests and lawyers. Get real we had to walk out, shut down the airline and incure a $45 million dollar fine just to get Reno onto our contract.

Yeaaaaaaaaaaa, I am sure that letter 3 and the fact that the Eagle pilot's don't like it, will stop AMR
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cleared Direct:
Yeaaa riiiiight, again when making his legal determination of the out right contractual violation the Judge will ask what we gave up to help out. The BK court cares only about what is best for the creditors. You should work for the APA legal department.

G4G5
You should learn a little more about airline BK history.
http://stlouis.bizjournals.com/stlouis/stories/2001/04/02/daily17.html
BK Judge Walsh denied the requests of the unsecured creditors because it was not in the best intersts of the 20,000 employees. (I know, I know I am sure the TWA folks will have something to say but that was pre 9/11, sars, the economy, Iraq)

You really need to get a better understanding of aviation finance and BK history before you make lame statements like,"The BK court cares only about what is best for the creditors."

The Unsecured creditors typically get cents on a dollar, if they get anything at all. The secured creditors, get their assets back (aircraft) The banks that provide the DIP and the only ones that the courts cares about. That's why Judge Walsh choose the TWA employees over the unsecured creditors.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cleared Direct;
Regardless, AMR did not even attempt to ask for real concessions from Eagle ALPA. Why do you think that is?

G4G5
Why don't you tell me?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Cleared Direct;
Who ever said APA can change our contract? All 4 participating parties can change the Supplement W/Letter 3 if we agree to. This could be done in a manner that is fair for all. Instead AMR and APA conspired to attempt to change the agreement on their own. Both APA and AMR realize they srewed up in not including Eagle ALPA in their rush to get the TA. They even called for a 4 party meeting to discuss the matter. It was obvious though that they have no real intension of solving the situation in a fair manner. You are right about AMR, but they have screwed you worse this time.

G4G5
AMR mgt did not invite you because they felt that they did not need you. Only time will tell. The APA does not decide who comes to the negotiations. One thing you can bank on, if you were invited, you would have come away with less then you have today. Their was no way that you would have been invited and walked away without contributing to the $1.8 billion that the rest of us gave.

Or did you think that you would have been invited to sit down and actually come away gaining something? LOL.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cleared Direct;
Yea, and they tried to pawn them off on you again during the rejected 2 year contract extension also. APA clearly said they were not worth the rest of the contract extension terms. Now they want the things so bad they agreed to fly them for less than what the current CRJ-700 Eagle pilots are flying them for. Funny how things are relative.

G4G5
The TA was rejected because the fine was not eliminated and the percentage increases were not up to UAL's. The vote had nothing to do with the CRJ70. But, if AMR was willing to give the CRJ70 to us back then, what does that tell you about your chances of keeping it?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cleared Direct;
I think I figured out why you are having trouble with Supplement W. You can't read. Who said APA purchases aircraft?

G4G5
You did, "If AA and APA WANT MORE SMALL JETS OR EMB-195's THEN ORDER THEM and fly them on AA's certificate not at Eagle."

I could say something insulting but I'll pass.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Cleared Direct;
That's right and it is defined by Supplement W/Letter 3 and not by some mutant 2 party change of the original 4 party agreement.

Believe me, there is nothing clear about what you speak on. Funny how your buddy "Dualrated" had indentified you as being in the projected group of furloughs in an earlier post. I guess while you are on PLA they can't furlough your AA number. To then go on to say it won't effect you at all, clearly shows your thinking. You spend alot of time posting your opinions about the situation that does not effect you. I guess you are going to resign your seniority number and never come back. Your choice to pursue a job in the corporate world had nothing to do with the furlough. Yeaaaa, Riiiiight.

G4G5
You don't even understand how it works at the airline. A PLA turns into a furlough once your number comes up. Then I am out. No need to resign your number becuase in the companies view, you are going out anyway. What I am doing is giving a guy a job. My seat can be filled by a guy jr to me, who would have gone out earlier.

You are so full of yourself it's pathetic. Get a grip on how it works before you make stupid statements like the one above.

It effects me because it effects friends of mine. Guys with families, who don't have the same choices that I do. Guys who need one of the newly created jobs at Eagle. The jobs that their concessions paid for.

 

[G4G5]

Cleared Direct:
Someone still has to buy the stock dork. Oh unless AMR is going to divest 49% of this Eagle IPO for 0 dollars. What you don't understand is that AMR finally got the scope relief that they wanted from APA for so long. Eagle is worth much more to AMR now that they can actually operate with less restrictions. Oh I guess you think AMR worked so hard to get scope relief just to give 49% of its bebefits to some other investors. While detaching Eagle from some of the scope and ASM restrictions does make Eagle more attractive as an IPO, these changes are far more valuable to AMR now.

G4G5
That someone is not you or I.

IPO 101. The stock will be offered to the institutional investors and investment brokerage houses. They don't care if you or I buy a single share And I seriously doubt that it will sell for "0 dollars", not when Express provided CAL with almost half a billion in cash.

Funds like Lord Abbot (one of AMR's largest share holders) will be offered the stock first. Then banks like JP Morgan Chase will get the rest. They inturn can hold it and sell it for a profit (like they did with their share of the Jet Blue IPO, JP Morgan sold their share of B6 for over $400 million and they weren't even the lead bank). Sure a few shares will trickle down but AMR doesn't care if you or I ever own a single share.

What are you thinking?

You are telling me that,"Eagle is worth much more to AMR now " in one sentence. And in another you state, "Oh I guess you think AMR worked so hard to get scope relief just to give 49% of its bebefits to some other investors"

That's billions of CASH that AMR can use to pay down the $20 billion in debt, purchase ERJ's, finnish capital expendatures (JFK and MIA), yada yada. The only way they get the CASH is with an IPO!

Do you think it makes more sense to be the only major left owning 100% of it's regional feed or would it make more sence to pay down the $20 billion in debt?

AMR can divest 49% and still maintain the same control that it has today. You really need to get a better understanding of how this works. Dork?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cleared Direct:
Just check the stock prices of AA, UAL, NWA, CAL, and DAL then and now. Check there cash on hand and value of assets. It is a "buy" because the sh*t has dropped so low genius.

G4G5
No genius. It's a buy because AMR now has every major labor group sign to a concessionary contract for the next 5 years! They have more cash on hand today ($2bill +). The stock is selling for $11 dollars today up from $2 less then 3 months ago. The economy is on the rebound. SAR's is all but history and Iraq is no longer on the front page

So you want to explain the, "droped so low genius" comment?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Cleared Direct:
Your thinking is about as clear as your spelling.

G4G5
My spelling is poor and I apoloize. It's tough to type when you are feeding a 3 month old. That's the only time I have left for the computer and when she says times up, I often don't get a chance to proof read, sorry. I often try to correct it when she's sleeping
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Cleared Direct:
I guess that is the same reason why they have decided to negotiate with us now. We are a business unit and party to a 4 party agreement.

G4G5
My guess is that it has something to do with the $10 million that AMR wants back from us. Yep that right we had to fork over $10 mill just to keep what's left of sup W.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cleared Direct:
Both AMR and APA did not want us at their party. The 10 million credit only covers the training of the APA pilots the first year. It does not cover additional domino training/displacement costs at Eagle or the following years. The reason AMR is going to charge you for the training in the EMJ Captain positions is because you (APA) gave up your rights to displace to the current EMJ Captain positions at Eagle. You can change your mind on one item but it will cost you. Eagle's worthless flow up is free because we did not negotiate it away dork. The only table you will see us at is the one at court. Your table will say defendant. You remember that same table where the big bad Judge took 45 million from your allowance for not playing fair.

G4G5
Ok, I'll see you in court and you guys will get everything that you deserve.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Cleared Direct:
The scope and ASM changes are for the commuter supplement as a whole. There is no guarantee that the growth will be at Eagle. It could be at American Connection or anyone else that AMR has agreements with. Other than that, yea. You got hosed.

G4G5
I agree we did get hosed and the one thing you can gurantee is that the growth won't be at AA mainline. You want to bet who has a better chance of seeing the growth? AA mgt did not negotiate the ability to take Eagle to 660 aircraft or 110% of mainline, unless they were determined to take it that far. All you need to do is look at ASA/Comair's percentage of mainline flying. That will tell you where this is going.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Cleared Direct:
You are starting to understand how APA shot themselves in the foot on this one. Supplement W/Letter 3 does not give flowback APA pilots any future CJ Captain vacancies at Eagle. It gives APA the right to displace into the CJ Captain positions that are there today as long as the flowback's AA number is senior to the Eagle Captain's AA seniority number. Unfortunately, your union additionally gave up your rights to displace into the current EMJ Captain positions for 28 million. You want all of our future RJ Captain vacancies? Say please. Is the picture a little more clear?

G4G5
So you expect to get the Scope relief, the ASM relief, the ability to expand to 660 aircraft all for NOTHING?

I don't think so, and my guess is that when the judge/arbitrator see that and combines it with that huge contribution you guys made to stave off BK and insure AMR's survival. Oh yeah that's right you actually think going to court is a good thing.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Cleared Direct:
About 120 pilots were able to flow up. The AA numbers held by current Eagle pilots are worthless.

You want to know what is pathetic? The intent of the flow through was to give 1 out of 2 of every new hire postions to Eagle Captains. After it was signed AA hired over 3000 pilots (not including TWA) and only 120 Eagle pilots made it to AA.

You know what else is pathetic. APA negotiated the flow through/ flow back as a furlough protection for their members when things got bad. When it came time for APA to really use that furlough protection for their members, APA traded the biggest part of it (displacement rights to the current EMJ Captain positions) away for a 28 million dollar credit toward their total concession goal. APA eats their young. Always have, always will. Apparently they have quite an appetite for TWA pilots also. You can thank your pathetic union.

G4G5
I agree.

You think the APA cares where the junior pilots come from or the need for a 2 year lock in once you upgrade? Or could the fact that their are only 120 Eagle flow throughs have something to do with AMR mgt? Nobody cares where the number behind them comes from, as long as it's behind them.


The $28 mill and the EMJ seats will all come up for discussion. Along with the arbitrators rulling on the AX code share and the $10 million for sup W.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Cleared Direct:
No instead we don't lose money. We make it for AMR instead. Despite being mismanaged we continue to make AMR money because of our pathetic salaries.

Look at how much AA lost compared to us?

G4G5

And look how much the stock has gone up because of our concessions

Do you actually believe the numbers that AMR gives ust? Yeah right. Just last month we were going BK and then As of 6/10 Arpey reports that we have $2 billion. Funny thing the first pay check effected by the concessions came out on 6/25. So where did the $2 billion come from? These guys are pathetic. Let's not get involved with reported Eagle Profits or how the losses at TWA are accounted for.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Cleared Direct:
I expect both AA and APA to honor the 4 party agreement. If not, we will spank you in court. Oh yea, don't worry you said it won't effect you.

G4G5
Yep, you'll be spanking something but it won't be us.

Remember you could go blind.

 

[Cleared Direct]

G4G5
So he is only concerned about a few Eagle pilots because all new RJ70 jobs will be going to AA mainline pilots.

The CRJ-700s won't go to AA mainline unless they can be operated under a labor cost neutral scenario when compared to Eagle.

He is only concerned about their seniority and their displament. They could be the most senior ERJ drivers, Darrah doesn't care. No one ever guranteed the Eagle pilots the CRJ.

Can you get this through your stupid head Eagle does not OWN the CRJ 70. AMR does. They can do what they want with it. They could sell it to a holding company and lease it back. They could trade them in on ERJ they can do what ever they want to. They could shift the flying to a third party and wet lease it back.

No one ever said Eagle specifically owned the CRJ-700s. There you are off arguing with yourself again.

I'll make it real simple for you. It's their ball, their court and their rules. You and I just get invited to play and in return they pay us. If you think that they give a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** about Eagle pilots flying the RJ70 you need to think again.

Or are you naive enough to believe that your contract will stop them from doing what ever they want, then arbitrate it. Hello......

Yes AMR does care who flies the CRJ-700. They want the cheapest pilots to fly it. And now your union has slutted themselves to fly it for less than us.

G4G5
You always seem to leave out the simple facts.
The jobs the APA wants are the ones that were created by the APA.

So here are a few simple questions. Answer this:
How else does Eagle get the right to grow to 660 aircraft or 110%?
How else does Eagle get more CRJ's without the APA's concession on ASM?
How were you going to create more jobs at Eagle when you can't negotiate another contract for years?

I made it simple.

Or are you trying to tell me that all the APA's concessions that were designed to create all thes growth should just be for the Eagle pilots.

Let me get it straight you give up NOTHING and want all the jobs?

If APA created these jobs, why don't they create them on AA's certificate instead of Eagle's? It was your union's mistake to negotiate away ASM and Scope relief without thinking the legal liability through. The ASM and Scope relief are for the commuter supplement carriers. There is no guarantee that Eagle will benefit. It could all be at the AX carriers.

G4G5
Wrong again Bucko, BK law dictates that ALL the employee groups SHARE equally in the concessions. Check it for yourself and then think again. Time to change the water in the bong Cheech. The judge would be forced to have the EAGLE pilot make the same concessions as all the other groups. ITS THE LAW!

Now with that being a fact, your contract would have been up for complete abrogation under section 1113 of the BK laws. Again that's the law. You only avoided having your contract completely up for renegotiation because we gave concessions. This will be taken into consideration by any judge or arbitrator that you decide to bring your case to.

You spew so much BS in just 2 paragraphs that even I am amazed. You really believe this stuff you post?

Here's how it works, the Judge can't force AMR to sell Eagle any more then he can force UAL to sell it's Pacific routes. Spend sometime and do some research.

I have a little news for you. No one cares if you make all the money. That's not how it works. The creditor's come after the banks that provide the DIP.

What a truly absurd statement
"Eagle is profitable and should be left alone or sold off to protect the interests of the creditors."

Geeze, do I need to give you BK 101? And the tooth fairy would probably come down and offer twice a much for Eagle.

More major spewing on your part. The DIP investors are creditors. I never distinguished secured or unsecured creditors in my statements.

G4G5
And I got some news for you. The APA out smarted the Carty boys. Who gets the 90 and 110 seat flying?

With that being said do you honestly think that AMR mgt has any intension of operating the same type (rating) aircraft with two set's of pilots, two set's of work rules, maint, FA's, training, yada yada?.

Oh boy, APA really out smarted the Carty boys. Have you seen what huge concessions that you have agreed to? You have got to be kidding. You got hosed big time.

What happens when they want to buy some 90 and 110 seat CRJ's or the EJR 170 series.

What is a EJR 170? Is that an Embraer Junior?

THey have to go to the APA because they own the flying. They have to sit down at the table and negotiate. Hummmm.

Or do you actually believe that they plan on operating an airline with just 25 70 seaters and nothing else between that and the MD80. From here on in, it all must go through the APA and yes they will pay or their will be nothing between 70 and 129 seats.

And while they fly nothing between 70-129 seats, other carriers like Jet Blue and US Airways scarf up most the orders in that range and utilize them to their maximum potential.

 

[Cleared Direct]

The above information was taken from 6/25/03's "Live with the APA". Any AA pilot with access to the APA web site can verify this.

Nice try

Your misquote about Eagle Rights captains was not taken from APA's site. You interpreted it wrong. Even when caught in an undefendable situation you won't admit fault and blame someone else.

But just so you know that I understand it here is a quote from the above post that you choose to ignore

"G4G5
I never argued this but what happens to the pilots who choose to have a seniority number on the AA list? These are the folks whose seats are in question. I agree if a pilot choose to remain an Eagle pilot for life then his seat should be protected but if he choose to flow up then, too bad"

I did not choose to ignore your quote. I just had not got to it yet. You spew so much BS it is hard to keep up with all of it. You claimed you never argued the part about the Eagle Rights captains even though it is clearly in your post. Then you blame it on a quote from APA's site. Then you agree with my statement about the Eagle Rights captains.

You are incredible.

 

[eaglefly]

Cleared, let the poor boy run-off all he wants. You'll never convince him of anything, so why not stop trying. Sparks are flying out of his ears from the bad wiring.

 

[G4G5]

Cleared Direct
The CRJ-700s won't go to AA mainline unless they can be operated under a labor cost neutral scenario when compared to Eagle.

G4G5
I agree but doesn't the TA/contract also read that if the two sides can't come to an agreement with in a year ( I believe so, I don't have my copy in front of me)then it goes to arbitration?

What do you think will happen when the Judge asks AMR, Do you ever plan on operating anything above the existing CRJ70's? What are your plans for the additional 70 seaters, the 90 seaters and the 110/115 seaters?

Knowing that all of that flying goes to the APA and that the CRJ 90 is the same type rating or that the ERJ is all one type. The next question would be:

How is that factored into the cost neutral basis?

The judge will be more then aware of the additional costs associated with operating a limited number of same type rated aircraft on TWO different seniority lists. Requiring TWO sets of pilot, FA's, maint, work rules, training yada yada.

Just by the virtue of the fact that AMR can place everything on one list(APA's) the cost savings is tremendous.

It was cost neutral from the begining.
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Cleared Direct :
No one ever said Eagle specifically owned the CRJ-700s. There you are off arguing with yourself again.

Yes AMR does care who flies the CRJ-700. They want the cheapest pilots to fly it. And now your union has slutted themselves to fly it for less than us.

G4G5
Again the aircraft was going to go to us anyway. Their is no way that AMR ever had the intension of operating the Same Type rated aircraft on two seperate lists. The eventual 90/110 seaters and the remaining 70 seaters go to the APA.

I agree the wage that they expect us to fly it is pathetic. I don't know who negotaited it but I don't expect it to last very long. Let's face it, this is going down to the wire with an arbitrator making the final decision.

Once the flying is legally the APA's (cost neutral). Then I would suspect that things would change (re negotiations for the pay rate on the 90 and 110 seaters, which don't exist yet and have to be negotiated)

So our union hasn't "slutted themselves". What they have done is played the hand they were delt to the best of their ability. What's your union been doing to protect you guys?
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Cleared Direct
If APA created these jobs, why don't they create them on AA's certificate instead of Eagle's? It was your union's mistake to negotiate away ASM and Scope relief without thinking the legal liability through. The ASM and Scope relief are for the commuter supplement carriers. There is no guarantee that Eagle will benefit. It could all be at the AX carriers.

G4G5

The jobs were added to the Eagle list only because the CRJ70 is currently operating on your FAA OPS Cert. To recertify it and then move everything over to the AA side would be cost prohibitive.

Not when you can just have AA pilots fly it on the current ops cert.

As far as the feed and the AX code. Isn't it in the contract that all feed supplied at the hubs listed be provided by Eagle? The reason why they were able to get around that with STL is because, it's not listed as a hub requiring Eagle feed.

From what I understand STL is now on the list, so growth should be coming to the Eagle pilots and not the AX folks.

Am I wrong?
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Cleared Direct
You spew so much BS in just 2 paragraphs that even I am amazed. You really believe this stuff you post?


G4G5
Here you go again, just spewing off with your lame opnion and no facts to justify it with.

You want to explain to me how every major contract with every labor group, supplier, vendor, bank yada yada has been renegotiated in AMR's behalf and The Eagle pilots seem to think that a BK filing by AMR would have left you alone.

You crack me up. You make statements like, "If it went to Chapter 11 the court would realize that unlike AA, Eagle is profitable and should be left alone or sold off to protect the interests of the creditors."

Thier are laws inplace to make sure that not one particular employee group is unjustly persecuted, all groups pay equally in a BK. You can't walk into a BK judge and say, we want all the concessions to come from group XYZ and none to come from group 123. You wnat to try and explain away your lack of BK knowledge, in the above quote?
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Cleared Direct
More major spewing on your part. The DIP investors are creditors. I never distinguished secured or unsecured creditors in my statements.

G4G5
No you did something worse you lumped all the creditors into one pool and it was not until I gave you BK 101 that you decided to differentiate between creditors. Heck this is the first time you even mentioned the word DIP.

It's clear to anyone reading the posts that you know very little about the BK laws and especially section 1113 abrogation

Otherwise how do you come off making a statement like,
"If it went to Chapter 11 the court would realize that unlike AA, Eagle is profitable and should be left alone or sold off to protect the interests of the creditors. "
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Cleared Direct:
Oh boy, APA really out smarted the Carty boys. Have you seen what huge concessions that you have agreed to? You have got to be kidding. You got hosed big time.

G4G5
I agree that the contract is a royal screwing. What I was saying is that if Arpey has an itension of purchasing the CRJ90 or the ERJ series, their are NO pay rates in the contract. He needs to sit down and negotiate with us. Or do you think that he plans on operating nothing in that seat range while Comair/ASA and Jet Blue swamp the market?
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So again I ask you:
How else does Eagle get the right to grow to 660 aircraft or 110%, without the $1.8 billion in concessions made by the AA employees?
How else does Eagle get more ERJ's (50 seaters) without the APA's concession on ASM?
How were you going to create more jobs at Eagle when you can't negotiate another contract for years?

 

[G4G5]

Your misquote about Eagle Rights captains was not taken from APA's site. You interpreted it wrong. Even when caught in an undefendable situation you won't admit fault and blame someone else.



I did not choose to ignore your quote. I just had not got to it yet. You spew so much BS it is hard to keep up with all of it. You claimed you never argued the part about the Eagle Rights captains even though it is clearly in your post. Then you blame it on a quote from APA's site. Then you agree with my statement about the Eagle Rights captains.

You are incredible.

G4G5
This now make the 4th post where I am stating that if an Eagle pilot choose to by pass the AA flow through then his seat should be protected.

Did you listen to the APA Live, it's not on transcript anywhere. You need to phone in live or down load the Real Player file? Hummm.