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justApilot
Dawn Patroller
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2002
- Posts
- 346
eglpilot,
I know y'all are upset about Supp W/Letter 3 being renegotiated without ALPA input. I'd be mad, too. But I'm curious why this new language is a worse deal than the original. I'm clearly missing something. The old Supp W means 400-500 APA pilots flush back to EGL, displacing 400-500 of your jet captains back to FO or the props. The new version results in only 100 or so jobs at EGL for APA pilots.
This isn't a troll or a flame. I honestly want to know both sides of this story.
I know y'all are upset about Supp W/Letter 3 being renegotiated without ALPA input. I'd be mad, too. But I'm curious why this new language is a worse deal than the original. I'm clearly missing something. The old Supp W means 400-500 APA pilots flush back to EGL, displacing 400-500 of your jet captains back to FO or the props. The new version results in only 100 or so jobs at EGL for APA pilots.
This isn't a troll or a flame. I honestly want to know both sides of this story.
justApilot
Dawn Patroller
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2002
- Posts
- 346
WIDEBODY ATR
Member
- Joined
- May 20, 2003
- Posts
- 15
Dualrated, where do you get "100 or so jobs at EGL for APA pilots"? The new TA allows for an unlimited number to come back. In fact, They would get ALL future vacancies, thereby forcing me to become an F/O for the rest of my life. (I'm currently a six year ATR captain). Once the ATR's are gone, and they will be, I will only be able to displace to EMB F/O with no hope of EVER regaing my capt seat! Under the "strict" interpretation of Letter3, worst case scenario I would be an F/O for no more than two years. Two years vs. the rest of my career. Which do you think is better? I'm not trying to be a jerk, but you APA guys need to really look at the facts and educate yourselves about this issue. There's a lot of dis-information being spewed by management. If you do want to learn the truth (because it does very much affect you) go to Letter3.org and in particular check out the "what's new" section. It's unbiased and absolutely factual
Easy now. There aren't too many experts on this subject, and I already admitted that I ain't one of 'em. I'm guessing that both of our managements and both of our unions are telling us four different things. I'm trying to "educate" myself by getting your perspective.
We were told that the eagle fleet plan is to park one prop for each RJ delivered, for a net fleet gain of almost zero for the next several years. Under the "new" Supp. W, APA furloughees only have access to vacancies created by a fleet expansion. As long as the fleet count remains the same, no additional APA pilots flushback. (The hundred or so jobs available to furloughees is a number that both the union and AMR has put out, based on the Canadair numbers.)
So, based on little or no fleet growth at Eagle , Eagle pilots will either be stagnant under the new Supp W for several years, or under the old Supp W. you'll move backwards 500 numbers and then be stagnant for several years.
I personally think that any real feeder growth at AMR will be outsourced to TSA and CHQ and Mesa and the list goes on and on and the race to the bottom continues.
As far as APA guys feeling betrayed by our union leadership, that should be a very familiar feeling to someone operating under a 16 year, no-strike, pay-indexed contract.
We were told that the eagle fleet plan is to park one prop for each RJ delivered, for a net fleet gain of almost zero for the next several years. Under the "new" Supp. W, APA furloughees only have access to vacancies created by a fleet expansion. As long as the fleet count remains the same, no additional APA pilots flushback. (The hundred or so jobs available to furloughees is a number that both the union and AMR has put out, based on the Canadair numbers.)
So, based on little or no fleet growth at Eagle , Eagle pilots will either be stagnant under the new Supp W for several years, or under the old Supp W. you'll move backwards 500 numbers and then be stagnant for several years.
I personally think that any real feeder growth at AMR will be outsourced to TSA and CHQ and Mesa and the list goes on and on and the race to the bottom continues.
As far as APA guys feeling betrayed by our union leadership, that should be a very familiar feeling to someone operating under a 16 year, no-strike, pay-indexed contract.
From what I've been told about the new TA (since no "official" copy seems to exist), is that APA pilots would immediately come back as CRJ captains, and would get EMJ captains at an increase in fleet size. This leads to several questions right off the bat with the most important being, What is an increase in fleet size? Is it an increase in EMJ's? Is it an increase in overall fleet size? If it's the latter, is from the fleet size now, sometime in the past, or sometime in the future?
It is also my understanding under the new TA, that if an APA pilot is furlooughed from Eagle as the result of a more senior APA pilot coming back, that furloughed pilot has recall rights to Eagle as an RJ captain whenever there is a vacancy they could hold (based on their seniority relative to other flowback pilots). Under the current Letter 3/Supp W, if an APA pilot is furlough from Eagle by a senior APA pilot, that pilot has NO recall rights. That simple fact alone means that upgrade opportunities for current Eagle pilots is about ZERO.
I also think there is one thing a lot of the APA pilots fail to realize: APA is responible for the training costs associated with the flowbacks and all the subsequent displacements (under the new TA). The last figure I heard associated with the cost to APA was $50 Million. I've seen the latest mesage from Darrah saying that APA is in financial difficulties, as an APA pilot, could you imagine paying another $50 Million minimum to cover the costs of having a few hundred flowback pilots employed?
A lot of this might have been avoided if APA had simply incluede ALPA in the talks, instead of fostering this entire Unity campaign. It turned out to be a good cover for APA, but they've got to realize that there is no way this would stand up in court. The APA position has always been that we are separate companies, at least until they need something. How could one union negotiate to take something away from another union that isn't theirs to begin with?
Just a few of my rambling thoughts,
EagleATR
ATR CA (for now)
It is also my understanding under the new TA, that if an APA pilot is furlooughed from Eagle as the result of a more senior APA pilot coming back, that furloughed pilot has recall rights to Eagle as an RJ captain whenever there is a vacancy they could hold (based on their seniority relative to other flowback pilots). Under the current Letter 3/Supp W, if an APA pilot is furlough from Eagle by a senior APA pilot, that pilot has NO recall rights. That simple fact alone means that upgrade opportunities for current Eagle pilots is about ZERO.
I also think there is one thing a lot of the APA pilots fail to realize: APA is responible for the training costs associated with the flowbacks and all the subsequent displacements (under the new TA). The last figure I heard associated with the cost to APA was $50 Million. I've seen the latest mesage from Darrah saying that APA is in financial difficulties, as an APA pilot, could you imagine paying another $50 Million minimum to cover the costs of having a few hundred flowback pilots employed?
A lot of this might have been avoided if APA had simply incluede ALPA in the talks, instead of fostering this entire Unity campaign. It turned out to be a good cover for APA, but they've got to realize that there is no way this would stand up in court. The APA position has always been that we are separate companies, at least until they need something. How could one union negotiate to take something away from another union that isn't theirs to begin with?
Just a few of my rambling thoughts,
EagleATR
ATR CA (for now)
From what I understand the ability to flowback to the ERJ is based upon the ability for Eagle to expand to 660 aircraft of 110%. The AA pilots would be able to flow into the left seat of newly created jobs not existing jobs.
Try to keep the 660 aircraft fleet size in mind when dscussing the new agreement. AMR mgt did not negotiate the ability to go to 110% of mainline unless they expected to get that many aircraft.
Another thing to keep in mind in that the current Scope clause allowed for zero growth based upon the ASM limit. In excahnge for this AMR mgt negotiatied the CRJ flying to go to the APA. With one exception the senior Eagle rights pilots who choose not to accept the flow through ARE seat protected. The new seats go to the APA. This was negotiated in exchange for relief on the ASM limit.
I am not aware of the APA having to cover the cost of training. From everything I have read the cost basis must be neutral. Which should be fairly simple because AA seniority does not count. A 3rd or 4th year AA pilot flows back to FIRST year pay rates.
The reality is that AMR mgt determines which aircraft they purchase and the 90-110 seaters are going to AA pilots. With that being said AA mgt has zero intension of operation a Same Type Crj on the Eagle list. Think about the costs. That's why AA mgt felt that ALPA did not need to sit down at the table.
Try to keep the 660 aircraft fleet size in mind when dscussing the new agreement. AMR mgt did not negotiate the ability to go to 110% of mainline unless they expected to get that many aircraft.
Another thing to keep in mind in that the current Scope clause allowed for zero growth based upon the ASM limit. In excahnge for this AMR mgt negotiatied the CRJ flying to go to the APA. With one exception the senior Eagle rights pilots who choose not to accept the flow through ARE seat protected. The new seats go to the APA. This was negotiated in exchange for relief on the ASM limit.
I am not aware of the APA having to cover the cost of training. From everything I have read the cost basis must be neutral. Which should be fairly simple because AA seniority does not count. A 3rd or 4th year AA pilot flows back to FIRST year pay rates.
The reality is that AMR mgt determines which aircraft they purchase and the 90-110 seaters are going to AA pilots. With that being said AA mgt has zero intension of operation a Same Type Crj on the Eagle list. Think about the costs. That's why AA mgt felt that ALPA did not need to sit down at the table.
WIDEBODY ATR
Member
- Joined
- May 20, 2003
- Posts
- 15
I think the APA "funding" of the flushbacks is through concessions, not through dues money. This has already been funded by our 23% paycut and 2500 additional furloughs (which includes me and G4G5).
I guess it boils down to this: If you think that EGL is about to experience big growth and a fleet of 660 jets, then the old Supp. W is good for Eagle pilots, bad for AA pilots. If you think that Eagle growth will stagnate at the current fleet count, then the old Supp W is good for AA pilots, bad for Eagle.
Personally, I agree with Mike Boyd that the hayday of the 50 seat jet is drawing to a close, and the future is in the 90-110 seaters. I also think that there is plenty of room for more outsourcing to the Connection family.
Last one to the bottom is a rotten egg!
eglpilot started this thread with the statement, "you guys are in trouble." Look around. We are all in trouble.
I guess it boils down to this: If you think that EGL is about to experience big growth and a fleet of 660 jets, then the old Supp. W is good for Eagle pilots, bad for AA pilots. If you think that Eagle growth will stagnate at the current fleet count, then the old Supp W is good for AA pilots, bad for Eagle.
Personally, I agree with Mike Boyd that the hayday of the 50 seat jet is drawing to a close, and the future is in the 90-110 seaters. I also think that there is plenty of room for more outsourcing to the Connection family.
Last one to the bottom is a rotten egg!
eglpilot started this thread with the statement, "you guys are in trouble." Look around. We are all in trouble.
resistance
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2003
- Posts
- 56
Hey Allied Pinheads;
Jets for Jobs ain't working here at Eagle! It ain't gonna happen. Our pilot group is way too bitter and way too educated to let that one fly over here. We saw what happened over at US Air and your tactics (and AMR Eagle Management's) are not going to threaten us. Our group of professional pilots are not 20-something college kids that interned here at Eagle to get a job. We worked every kind of sh*t job to get here so we are wiser than you take us for.
For the "lucky" ones to flow-back......we are waiting for You.
No ScAAbs!
Jets for Jobs ain't working here at Eagle! It ain't gonna happen. Our pilot group is way too bitter and way too educated to let that one fly over here. We saw what happened over at US Air and your tactics (and AMR Eagle Management's) are not going to threaten us. Our group of professional pilots are not 20-something college kids that interned here at Eagle to get a job. We worked every kind of sh*t job to get here so we are wiser than you take us for.
For the "lucky" ones to flow-back......we are waiting for You.
No ScAAbs!
And say, Yes to an Eagle IPO!
Divest 49% of Eagle while still maintaining the controling interest of 51% (ala Comair/ASA). Then use the money to pay down debt and order the inevitable ERJ170 series. Think it won't happen, think again.
Now that AA mainline has the 70/90/110 seaters. Problem solved. Or did you actually think that AA was planning on operating an airline with just 25-70 seaters and nothing else between 70 and 129 (MD80's)?
What is the benefit of owning 100% of your feed? Anybody else doing it? Take a look at CAL, they are the most recent major to wave good by to their regional and the flow up to mainline. So, in relatively short order you guys will not be able to flow up at all but at least you've got your contract and letter 3.
Big picture, letter 3 and sup W are all just window dressing until the stock market and the market for IPO's turns around. With 2004 being an election year, that should not be all that far away.
Or does someone this board actually think that AA would leave all that cash on the table and be the only major that owns 100%?
Divest 49% of Eagle while still maintaining the controling interest of 51% (ala Comair/ASA). Then use the money to pay down debt and order the inevitable ERJ170 series. Think it won't happen, think again.
Now that AA mainline has the 70/90/110 seaters. Problem solved. Or did you actually think that AA was planning on operating an airline with just 25-70 seaters and nothing else between 70 and 129 (MD80's)?
What is the benefit of owning 100% of your feed? Anybody else doing it? Take a look at CAL, they are the most recent major to wave good by to their regional and the flow up to mainline. So, in relatively short order you guys will not be able to flow up at all but at least you've got your contract and letter 3.
Big picture, letter 3 and sup W are all just window dressing until the stock market and the market for IPO's turns around. With 2004 being an election year, that should not be all that far away.
Or does someone this board actually think that AA would leave all that cash on the table and be the only major that owns 100%?
Cleared Direct
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2002
- Posts
- 82
G4G5 said:
Yea right, just one little problem. Who would invest in Eagle? Get real. The only divestiture of Eagle that could be done today would be to a puppet buyer like the one they had set up to buy Executive in the islands. The Express Jet Holdings deal was done before things got even worse.
In addition there is the problem of buying into a company that has the legal liability of the flow back/ flow through agreements.
I am all for a complete sale though.
Think again clueless. Read Letter 3/Supplement W again. There is a very clear legal binding successorship clause in the agreement unlike the one at CAL. It clearly states that the flow through agreement continues even after a complete sale.
Keep telling yourself that this is just a regular down cycle. Dream on. Things have changed and the airlines have to adapt. It is up to us to prevent management from driving what is left of the commercial pilot profession further into the ground. Instead APA has agreed to fly Eagle's CRJ-700s for less than what the current pilots at Eagle are fllying them for. I am real proud of you pinheads.
All that cash? The amount of money that Eagle could be sold for is not going to save AA dork. AMR already has a portfolio of airlines that they don't own. The America Connection brand alone has 3 separate carriers at this time with more on the way. Even APA was concerned enough about them that they signed a letter of agreement that calls for a specific protocol for a Jets-for-Jobs agreement with any of these carriers if they get future RJs that feed AA.
The fact is that both AMR and APA shot themselves in the foot by not involving Eagle ALPA in the concession negotiations. Now that they both realize that, and they still won't negotiate something even close to fair. See you in court!
Last edited:
Originally posted by Cleared Direct [/i]
Yea right, just one little problem. Who would invest in Eagle? Get real. The only divestiture of Eagle that could be done today would be to a puppet buyer like the one they had set up to buy Executive in the islands. The Express Jet Holdings deal was done before things got even worse.
In addition there is the problem of buying into a company that has the legal liability of the flow back/ flow through agreements.
I am all for a complete sale though.
G4G5
Wrong!
The date of the CAL/Express IPO was April 18 2002.
So unless you have some special calendar that is POST 9/11!!!!!
You really look stupid when you can't be bothered to do the least bit of research.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Think again clueless. Read Letter 3/Supplement W again. There is a very clear legal binding successorship clause in the agreement unlike the one at CAL. It clearly states that the flow through agreement continues even after a complete sale.
G4G5
Should I take your word on it? Or do you think that it's possible for AMR mgt to eliminate the agreement? Where is it written that you have the right to flow through into an aircraft that has no been ordered(ERJ 170's)? Are you aware that NO EAGLE pilots can be recalled until ALL AA pilots have been recalled? Because our current contract (the new T/A) states that AA has the right to higher off the street while furloughed pilots are still at Eagle(that could be forever! All it takes is one guy).
The same T/A clearly states that the max recall rate to AA mainline from Eagle is 20 pilots per month(their is no min recall rate, one a month would comply with the TA)? How long will that take to get all the furloughed pilots and the pilots who wind up at Eagle recalled? Give it up. With an IPO the flow through is GONE just like at CAL!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Keep telling yourself that this is just a regular down cycle. Dream on. Things have changed and the airlines have to adapt. It is up to us to prevent management from driving what is left of the commercial pilot profession further into the ground. Instead APA has agreed to fly Eagle's CRJ-700s for less than what the current pilots at Eagle are fllying them for. I am real proud of you
pinheads.
G4G5
So you actually think that the CRJ series is going to be here for the long term? You kill me. You actually believe that AMR mgt plans on just operating the current 25-CRJ's and add nothing else. Or is it a possibility that the current CRJ's are just a stop gap until AA orders the ERJ's. You think for a minute that the CRJ900's can compete with the ERJ's? What does Bomardier make that can compete with the 115 seat ERJ195's? Try to think long term, big picture. If you were AMR mgt would you keep the 25-CRJ's or would you place the big ERJ order?
Ok now ask yourself how many of the ERJ's go to Eagle? None.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All that cash? The amount of money that Eagle could be sold for is not going to save AA dork. AMR already has a portfolio of airlines that they don't own. The America Connection brand alone has 3 separate carriers at this time with more on the way. Even APA was concerned enough about them that they signed a letter of agreement that calls for a specific protocol for a Jets-for-Jobs agreement with any of these carriers if they get future RJs that feed AA.
G4G5
Dork?
Read it and weep you MORON!
http://www.ainonline.com/Publications/RAA_02/raa_02_expressjetpg4.html
CAL was able to raise $480 million while maintaining a 53% controlling interest in Express. So genius if CAL got $480 mill just 8 months post 9/11. How much do you think the much larger Eagle would fetch? Well over a BILLION is the current Wall Street estimate! Executive was scheduled to be sold for $800 million alone! You really need to do just the slightest bit of research, otherwise you lose all creditability.
See you in court!
G4G5
That would be mergers and aquisitions court. You guys are toast. AMR is going to sell you guys so fast your heads will spin. Wait until the stock begins to level off. GWB has no choice but to turn things around and if you have bother to read the WSJ or look at the S&P you will see thing on the mend. Just look at AMR stock. So again is their anyone on this board who actually thinks that AMR will leave all that cash on the table?
That's why you were not invited to the table to negotiate. Take your contract and your letter 3 to your next boss.
Yea right, just one little problem. Who would invest in Eagle? Get real. The only divestiture of Eagle that could be done today would be to a puppet buyer like the one they had set up to buy Executive in the islands. The Express Jet Holdings deal was done before things got even worse.
In addition there is the problem of buying into a company that has the legal liability of the flow back/ flow through agreements.
I am all for a complete sale though.
G4G5
Wrong!
The date of the CAL/Express IPO was April 18 2002.
So unless you have some special calendar that is POST 9/11!!!!!
You really look stupid when you can't be bothered to do the least bit of research.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Think again clueless. Read Letter 3/Supplement W again. There is a very clear legal binding successorship clause in the agreement unlike the one at CAL. It clearly states that the flow through agreement continues even after a complete sale.
G4G5
Should I take your word on it? Or do you think that it's possible for AMR mgt to eliminate the agreement? Where is it written that you have the right to flow through into an aircraft that has no been ordered(ERJ 170's)? Are you aware that NO EAGLE pilots can be recalled until ALL AA pilots have been recalled? Because our current contract (the new T/A) states that AA has the right to higher off the street while furloughed pilots are still at Eagle(that could be forever! All it takes is one guy).
The same T/A clearly states that the max recall rate to AA mainline from Eagle is 20 pilots per month(their is no min recall rate, one a month would comply with the TA)? How long will that take to get all the furloughed pilots and the pilots who wind up at Eagle recalled? Give it up. With an IPO the flow through is GONE just like at CAL!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Keep telling yourself that this is just a regular down cycle. Dream on. Things have changed and the airlines have to adapt. It is up to us to prevent management from driving what is left of the commercial pilot profession further into the ground. Instead APA has agreed to fly Eagle's CRJ-700s for less than what the current pilots at Eagle are fllying them for. I am real proud of you
pinheads.
G4G5
So you actually think that the CRJ series is going to be here for the long term? You kill me. You actually believe that AMR mgt plans on just operating the current 25-CRJ's and add nothing else. Or is it a possibility that the current CRJ's are just a stop gap until AA orders the ERJ's. You think for a minute that the CRJ900's can compete with the ERJ's? What does Bomardier make that can compete with the 115 seat ERJ195's? Try to think long term, big picture. If you were AMR mgt would you keep the 25-CRJ's or would you place the big ERJ order?
Ok now ask yourself how many of the ERJ's go to Eagle? None.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All that cash? The amount of money that Eagle could be sold for is not going to save AA dork. AMR already has a portfolio of airlines that they don't own. The America Connection brand alone has 3 separate carriers at this time with more on the way. Even APA was concerned enough about them that they signed a letter of agreement that calls for a specific protocol for a Jets-for-Jobs agreement with any of these carriers if they get future RJs that feed AA.
G4G5
Dork?
Read it and weep you MORON!
http://www.ainonline.com/Publications/RAA_02/raa_02_expressjetpg4.html
CAL was able to raise $480 million while maintaining a 53% controlling interest in Express. So genius if CAL got $480 mill just 8 months post 9/11. How much do you think the much larger Eagle would fetch? Well over a BILLION is the current Wall Street estimate! Executive was scheduled to be sold for $800 million alone! You really need to do just the slightest bit of research, otherwise you lose all creditability.
See you in court!
G4G5
That would be mergers and aquisitions court. You guys are toast. AMR is going to sell you guys so fast your heads will spin. Wait until the stock begins to level off. GWB has no choice but to turn things around and if you have bother to read the WSJ or look at the S&P you will see thing on the mend. Just look at AMR stock. So again is their anyone on this board who actually thinks that AMR will leave all that cash on the table?
That's why you were not invited to the table to negotiate. Take your contract and your letter 3 to your next boss.
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