Possible Violations @ CVG

[PeanuckleCRJ]

You mentioned the maltese cross. The cross is not applicable on an ILS approach.

 

[8vATE]

Only with reference to specific procedures and profile flying. The FAF on the ILS is depicted by the maltese cross on the approach. It can be defined only by a second navaid or DME.

Man ...
You are WRONG..

So much for reading your posts in the future.

You are quick to spout off but evidently should read more and talk/post less!

 

[The_Russian]

Man ...
You are WRONG..

So much for reading your posts in the future.

You are quick to spout off but evidently should read more and talk/post less!

Its called a "fluid conversation". Try to visualize things "outside the box". I am trying to clarify things to someone who was completely wrong about what he/she said. I got a little mixed up and made a boo-boo. Get over it, I did. Lets keep talking.

Notice that I corrected myself in post #19 before anyone said anything.

 

[obadie]

I know in ORD it's also been a problem. Moral of this story don't be lazy and arm the appr. Fly the step downs.

 

[rptrain]

Yeah, that was my bad.

My point still stands. GS intercept is not always the FAF on a precision approach.

yes it is. the final approach fix on an ILS is ALWAYS the PUBLISHED Glide Slope Intercept Altitude (including any lower authorized altitude which will be noted on the plate). The FAF doesn't magically move depending on where you decided to intercept at. On NACO charts it's the lightning bolt symbol and on Jepps it's where the published altitude intercepts the feather. The Maltese cross is for non-precision use ONLY. I think that you are confusing the published glideslope altitude at the FIX (which is for "reality check" purposes) and the GSIA. In the case of CVG's ILS 18C, they are the same. Check out BOS ILS 4R. The GSIA/FAF is 1800, but the GS altitude at MILTT is 1723.

http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0710/00058IL4R.PDF

In this case, if you decided to fly the glideslope down from say 5000, you would still be responsible for ensuring you meet the minimum altitudes at WINNI AND NABBO, but the FAF still remains at 1800 ft on the glideslope.

When shooting the LOC 4R, the FAF is MILTT D6.9/RADAR and the minimum altitude is still 1800.

 

[The_Russian]

yes it is.

No its not.

the final approach fix on an ILS is ALWAYS the PUBLISHED Glide Slope Intercept Altitude (including any lower authorized altitude which will be noted on the plate).

It will be the lowest altitude only. There will be no other step downs for a precision approach.

The FAF doesn't magically move depending on where you decided to intercept at.

Thats what I am saying!

On NACO charts it's the lightning bolt symbol and on Jepps it's where the published altitude intercepts the feather. The Maltese cross is for non-precision use ONLY. I think that you are confusing the published glideslope altitude at the FIX (which is for "reality check" purposes) and the GSIA.

I did, and I noted that. Thanks.

 

[rptrain]

No its not.

It will be the lowest altitude only. There will be no other step downs for a precision approach.

i don't understand this statement. give me an example of when you think the FAF on an ILS is not the published GSIA. remember that i am saying there may be a caveat on the plate that a lower GSIA is authorized. for example, the lightning bolt altitude will say something like "*1500 when authorized by ATC" and only used if ATC clears you down to that altitude PRIOR to intercepting. either way, it will still be PUBLISHED on the plate. the FAF can't ever be some point or location that gets made up on the fly.

 

[The_Russian]

i don't understand this statement. give me an example of when you think the FAF on an ILS is not the published GSIA. remember that i am saying there may be a caveat on the plate that a lower GSIA is authorized. for example, the lightning bolt altitude will say something like "*1500 when authorized by ATC" and only used if ATC clears you down to that altitude PRIOR to intercepting. either way, it will still be PUBLISHED on the plate. the FAF can't ever be some point or location that gets made up on the fly.

I am talking about a straight forward ILS approach. Special notations do not apply to what I am talking about.

There is one GSIA only. At that point, and only that point, you will be considered to be at the FAF. If you intercept the GS anywhere above that, you are not at the FAF for that approach. Another posted insisted that you can intercept the GS above the stepdowns and it bcomes the FAF, when it does not.

Now, if there is a special notation, the FAF moves to that lower depicted altitude if you accept that clearance during the intermediate segment.

 

[igneousy2]

Discussions on FI are really getting bad...this is basic airmanship stuff...Shouldn't this be in the Flight Instruction section? At the rate we're going we are going to be discussing "ground effect! Myth or Reality?" by the end of the year.

 

[DrewBlows]

The Russian has extended this thread about ten posts longer than it needed to be.

Here's the only answer.

GLIDESLOPE INTERCEPT ALTITUDE- The minimum altitude to intercept the glideslope/path on a precision approach. The intersection of the published intercept altitude with the glideslope/path, designated on Government charts by the lightning bolt symbol, is the precision FAF; however, when the approach chart shows an alternative lower glideslope intercept altitude, and ATC directs a lower altitude, the resultant lower intercept position is then the FAF.

Here's the link to the website the definition is located at. Notice the link starts with 'faa.gov', that's a pretty good indication it's good information.