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Possible Violations @ CVG

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JECKEL

God's Own Drunk
Joined
Nov 27, 2001
Posts
402
Arriving crews into CVG now run the risk of being violated after they have been cleared for the ILS approach for runway 18C. (not the visual)

Local ATC has threatened future violation action for pilots due to vertical separation after being cleared for the ILS to 18C.

Crews are being told to maintain 7000 until LAMAH (20 DME off the ISIC) and then cleared for the ILS 18C. Crews who interecept and follow the glideslope just after LAMAH are finding themselves, according to local ATC, 200 to 300 below the ANTRI stepdown fix (6000) at the 17.2 DME. This is causes vertical seperation problems for approaches on the other two runways even in VMC conditions. (Especially in VMC conditions is what approach is complaining about)

So here is my question ... at what distance can you safely/legally intercept and follow the glideslope and not impede on any stepdown fixes? When MUST you stepdown and stepdown, etc before you can intercept the glideslope?

In my research I found some generic information that says LOCs are USUALLY only reliable to 18 NM and GLIDESLOPEs are USUALLY only reliable to 10 NM. Does this have any relevance?

In addition, a representative of the local ATC stated that DELTA pilots almost always cross LAMAH at 7000, stepdown to 6000 to cross ANTRI, stepdown to 5000 to cross DULEY and intercept the GS at the point preventing any vertical separation errors, while almost all COMAIR pilots just intercept the GS at LAMAH/7000 follow it down and are 200-300 feet low at ANTRI causing TERP related vertical speration problems. Go Figure.
 
So here is my question ... at what distance can you safely/legally intercept and follow the glideslope and not impede on any stepdown fixes? When MUST you stepdown and stepdown, etc before you can intercept the glideslope?

You're cleared to fly the published appr. Fly the step-downs and intercept the GS at the FAF. Simple as that.

That you can "receive" the GS signal 20 miles out is meaningless. Fly the charted procedure and folks will stop bitching, you won't get violated and you'll live longer!
 
You just answered your own question if you reread what you wrote.
If you are on a glideslope and are going to be going below a step down you cant stay on the glideslope. The only place you can be sure to be save to be following the glideslope down is crossing the FAF.
Its kind of like the incident of a crew following the Vasi/papi in mountainous terrain. Something like they followed the lights down aways away from the airport, and got too close to the terrain. The lights are only useable between 4-5 miles.
 
Look for the featherd barb on the profile view. That shows G/S intercept

Be "past" the end of the feather before you track the slope (or go below a step down).

LAX has the same "problem" and the same result (violations)

-Showtime
 
You're cleared to fly the published appr. Fly the step-downs and intercept the GS at the FAF. Simple as that.
What if the GS intercept at the FAF is below the final step down minimum requiring you to fly the GS down to that point?

So the original question stands:

JECKEL said:
So here is my question ... at what distance can you safely/legally intercept and follow the glideslope and not impede on any stepdown fixes? When MUST you stepdown and stepdown, etc before you can intercept the glideslope?

Answer:

It depends on the NAVAID itself.

AIM 1-1-9 d.

3. The glide path projection angle is normally adjusted to 3 degrees above horizontal so that it intersects the MM at about 200 feet and the OM at about 1,400 feet above the runway elevation. The glide slope is normally usable to the distance of 10 NM. However, at some locations, the glide slope has been certified for an extended service volume which exceeds 10 NM.
 
All good posts and I totatally agree.

I believe it comes down to the lazy/sloppy pilot syndrome.
 
Look for the featherd barb on the profile view. That shows G/S intercept

Be "past" the end of the feather before you track the slope (or go below a step down).

LAX has the same "problem" and the same result (violations)

-Showtime
Not that I doubt you, but could you provide a reference for that?
 
Look for the featherd barb on the profile view. That shows G/S intercept

Be "past" the end of the feather before you track the slope (or go below a step down).

LAX has the same "problem" and the same result (violations)

-Showtime


The "problem" at LAX is that if you intercept and fly the GS too early, you will bust altitude restrictions on the arrival. Pay attention and don't arm approach early.
 

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