Pinnacle, Mesaba, Colgan SLI

[CptMurf]

If I were a negotiator....

I would research when each of us entered this sector of the industry (for protecting previous furloughed types and the non union ie. SkyWest types) and create a DOH list from those dates. That would be the starting point.

No one would be allowed to lose aircraft or seat. But as vacancies open, someone could bid into a position above them.

Then I would the break the list into 6 parts. CA and FO for the 3 companies. I would identify 3 individuals from each group representing 25%/50%/75% and track how much the DOH list moves them. I would identify any specific areas that would affect them and negotiate any type of kicker (or loss) to protect "Windfalls" specific to the individuals. That gives you 9 resetting points to manage these.

 

[higney85]

If I were a negotiator....

I would research when each of us entered this sector of the industry (for protecting previous furloughed types and the non union ie. SkyWest types) and create a DOH list from those dates. That would be the starting point.

No one would be allowed to lose aircraft or seat. But as vacancies open, someone could bid into a position above them.

Then I would the break the list into 6 parts. CA and FO for the 3 companies. I would identify 3 individuals from each group representing 25%/50%/75% and track how much the DOH list moves them. I would identify any specific areas that would affect them and negotiate any type of kicker (or loss) to protect "Windfalls" specific to the individuals. That gives you 9 resetting points to manage these.

Sounds like a national seniority list that would never be agreed to.

 

[DoinTime]

If I were a negotiator....

I would research when each of us entered this sector of the industry (for protecting previous furloughed types and the non union ie. SkyWest types) and create a DOH list from those dates. That would be the starting point.

No one would be allowed to lose aircraft or seat. But as vacancies open, someone could bid into a position above them.

Then I would the break the list into 6 parts. CA and FO for the 3 companies. I would identify 3 individuals from each group representing 25%/50%/75% and track how much the DOH list moves them. I would identify any specific areas that would affect them and negotiate any type of kicker (or loss) to protect "Windfalls" specific to the individuals. That gives you 9 resetting points to manage these.

Its a good thing you aren't a negotiator.

 

[CptMurf]

Its a good thing you aren't a negotiator.

Your probably right... Glad your not one either.

 

[Ridgeback]

Ok... and someone on the 9e list that bids 10% that gets summer vacation and weekends off would lose them after they are forced down by Mesaba pilots. That is different how? Or is it only bad when YOU or YOURS lose seniority?

I want DOH, but your arguements are biased and ignored the losses others have to take.

How about this?

Come up with what ever seniority intergration you want...with Fences...BUT

Create sub seniority list...example...The Mesaba 900 Memphis base has 50 captains. Those positions are fenced. If captain # 25 gets hired at brand X and vacates his position...anyone bidding into that spot now becomes number 50...the rest of the list moves up until the orginal #50 guy vacates his spot.

This prevents the super total seniority pilot (most likely a 9E 200 Memphis captain) from pushing anyone out his spot...no need to worry about always being on reserve...never getting a weekend off...ect.

You will still move up in senority as if we never merged the lists and we as a group still reap the bennys of the new contract. You can keep your plans and I'll keep mine...

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

How about this?

Come up with what ever seniority intergration you want...with Fences...BUT

Create sub seniority list...example...The Mesaba 900 Memphis base has 50 captains. Those positions are fenced. If captain # 25 gets hired at brand X and vacates his position...anyone bidding into that spot now becomes number 50...the rest of the list moves up until the orginal #50 guy vacates his spot.

This prevents the super total seniority pilot (most likely a 9E 200 Memphis captain) from pushing anyone out his spot...no need to worry about always being on reserve...never getting a weekend off...ect.

You will still move up in senority as if we never merged the lists and we as a group still reap the bennys of the new contract. You can keep your plans and I'll keep mine...

I was thinking something similar but I would add that we know another 108 XJ people are flowing. Let the XJ people slide up into those spots. Seems fair. 9E got signing bonus, 9L well lets just say they came out pretty good, I personally didn't get much in this deal.

Before you put a bomb under my car, I am not even slightly serious about this idea...

 

[xjhawk]

The list I have is 1st Qtr 2010. Your right it may have not been "adjusted". But here's the thing, I was hired months before the contract '99 and at the time there were only 300 9E pilots and no hiring. The difference between my list and any adjusted list should be minimal.

SmartA$$- I guess they the level of getting screwed is letting 300 pilots in front of me. Overall, I am for DOH. I entered the industry on a certain date and had my own career expectations. Those were promptly crushed by 9-11, our contract, SARs, our sham BK, the economic collapses, and age 65. I never planned to be here 12 years, downgrade twice, or spend 5 1/2 years on reserve, but I did. Yes, I could have left for Spirit or CAL. But my airlines of choice have yet to hire (read offer interview) since 9-11, therefore I have waited patiently. I just hope I don't have to add the SLI to the list. My concern, is what Ridgeback spoke of, condemned to life on reserve, while 300 people with less time in the industry get to move on in front of me. I have struggled to attain the QOL I have, I don't want to lose it to a person that was in middle school when I started here. Or because they chose to go to 9L 5 years ago and feel equal to a 12 XJ or 9E guy. DOH is fair, that is when we decided to enter the suck. If someone entered before me, then kudos for putting up with it. If you entered after me, keep your airplane and your seat, but get in line after me.[/Q

There us noth a thing you said wrong here. But the ever important ALPA merger policy might make us bend. But I say this, just maybe if our three guys argue a good enough fight how the other two pilot groups have gotten so much while we have given up so much in the TA that just maybe things can be tilted towards a more DOH type list. I have also heard that the arbitrator is someone who has used date of hire in the past, so what we must say is hold strong and let him decide.

 

[suupah]

Date of hire without fences would not be fair to cjc pilots. I think that longevity should count for something, but there must be a way to integrate such that in the new company, your bidding for schedules and vacation will be close to what you had prior to the merger. I have been at cjc for 6 years and am sitting at about 15%. I hold weekends off/capt on the Q. I don't expect to come out at 15% on the combined list but anywhere under 25% would be justifiable and acceptable to me.

The argument about CJC gaining so much in the contract does not work for me personally as I would rather keep my current pay and workrules with weekends off then get the pay bump (I rarely if ever get extended or junior manned, have less then 11 days off, work for less than 4 hours in a day as it is so the work rules I have seen so far don't help me that much) and lose my schedule. My schedule is my quality of life.

 

[Simon Says]

Date of hire without fences would not be fair to cjc pilots. I think that longevity should count for something, but there must be a way to integrate such that in the new company, your bidding for schedules and vacation will be close to what you had prior to the merger. I have been at cjc for 6 years and am sitting at about 15%. I hold weekends off/capt on the Q. I don't expect to come out at 15% on the combined list but anywhere under 25% would be justifiable and acceptable to me.

The argument about CJC gaining so much in the contract does not work for me personally as I would rather keep my current pay and workrules with weekends off then get the pay bump (I rarely if ever get extended or junior manned, have less then 11 days off, work for less than 4 hours in a day as it is so the work rules I have seen so far don't help me that much) and lose my schedule. My schedule is my quality of life.

Here is the problem Suupah.

I have been at Mesaba for 12 years and barely 25% of my list. If you are hoping to get 25% I think your goals are fairly lofty.

Let me ask you this. Do you think you should be senior to me on the combined SLI list?

 

[suupah]

Here is the problem Suupah.

I have been at Mesaba for 12 years and barely 25% of my list. If you are hoping to get 25% I think your goals are fairly lofty.

Let me ask you this. Do you think you should be senior to me on the combined SLI list?

Listen, I understand you have more time at company than I and I don't think I should be senior to you. I just hope they can find a solution that is the least detrimental to everyone's quality of life pre merger.

Do you think I should take a big hit in my quality of life over this merger? Should I have to go back to tuesday, wednesday's off because PNCL decided to purchase Mesaba?

What is fair? How would you define it?

 

[xjhawk]

if you are so worried about the most senior of the senior I have a solution. at pinnacle your most senior position is ATL and your 900's and the same can be said about the DTW/MEM/MSP mesaba 900's. So lets fence all those and keep them exclusively for the pilots of each company. That would protect your most senior guys precious summer vacations and weekends. I am not one to think this is a good solution to bring us together but it would give me a chance to get to the 900 if I do not move on. If I do not move on, my plan was to be on the 900 but is unlikely if a bad SLI happens.

 

[Simon Says]

Listen, I understand you have more time at company than I and I don't think I should be senior to you. I just hope they can find a solution that is the least detrimental to everyone's quality of life pre merger.

Do you think I should take a big hit in my quality of life over this merger? Should I have to go back to tuesday, wednesday's off because PNCL decided to purchase Mesaba?

What is fair? How would you define it?

First off you qualified your statement of merging the list by saying "all CJC pilots" and "merging without fences"

I think what you meant was specifically you, and not all CJC pilots...which is fine. I just want what I am saying in context.

Second is merging without fences. This merge will more than likely have fences. One on the Q-400 CA, and the other on the CRJ-900 CA. With that said I should be senior to you on the list, but I could not bump you out of position or schedule for a time being. What is that time? I don't know, but with the merger of the SLI their will be quite a few guys coming in senior to you fair or not. For me guys with less years of service will be coming in senior to me fair or not. It is the way it is.

With all of that said here is what you need to think about with the TA contract. You may be able to hold whatever you want now and bid whatever schedule you may desire. Once the SLI is integrated then you may be worrying about the 4 hour min day/ reserve/ and section 25.

 

[suupah]

One thing is for certain: The merger committee has a tough job to do.

 

[CptMurf]

Date of hire without fences would not be fair to cjc pilots. I think that longevity should count for something, but there must be a way to integrate such that in the new company, your bidding for schedules and vacation will be close to what you had prior to the merger. I have been at cjc for 6 years and am sitting at about 15%. I hold weekends off/capt on the Q. I don't expect to come out at 15% on the combined list but anywhere under 25% would be justifiable and acceptable to me.

The argument about CJC gaining so much in the contract does not work for me personally as I would rather keep my current pay and workrules with weekends off then get the pay bump (I rarely if ever get extended or junior manned, have less then 11 days off, work for less than 4 hours in a day as it is so the work rules I have seen so far don't help me that much) and lose my schedule. My schedule is my quality of life.

In all fairness suupah, I respect every point you make, but I could also apply every point to myself. 12 years at XJ gets you about 21%-25% of our list, and a descent schedule. With the JCBA we get NO raise whatsoever. Exactly how is it fair to us, if we get no raise and have to let you in front of us at 15%-25% (with a huge raise) to ensure your quality of life? Although it may seem fair to you to not end up lower than 25% on the combined list, it is unfair to the 7-10 year people at XJ/9E that you would get to integrate in front of.

The thing is, there is no right answer. Everyone of us will be affected differently no matter how we integrate. We will have to make personal changes (Seat/Base/Equipment) to get back to an acceptable QOL for ourselves.

 

[Smarta$$]

You guys keep talking about the 900 like it is a FU#%^NG A330. IT IS A CRJ! It has an extra ugly old lady and a forward potty. Oh, and FIVE WHOLE EXTRA DOLLARS PER HOUR.

I'm sure it is a nice plane, but put your boners away already. Your a CRJ pilot, get over yourselves.

 

[Simon Says]

You guys keep talking about the 900 like it is a FU#%^NG A330. IT IS A CRJ! It has an extra ugly old lady and a forward potty. Oh, and FIVE WHOLE EXTRA DOLLARS PER HOUR.

I'm sure it is a nice plane, but put your boners away already. Your a CRJ pilot, get over yourselves.

I could careless what airplane it is. I chase the pay and quality of life. Between those two I don't know what is more important. So, for me it is not the type of airplane I fly.

 

[Ridgeback]

You guys keep talking about the 900 like it is a FU#%^NG A330. IT IS A CRJ! It has an extra ugly old lady and a forward potty. Oh, and FIVE WHOLE EXTRA DOLLARS PER HOUR.

I'm sure it is a nice plane, but put your boners away already. Your a CRJ pilot, get over yourselves.

WRONG!!

when dual qual is implemented if your a 900 captain you will always get 900 pay

If you were a 900 captain and now your a 200 captain you'll only get the 900 pay when you fly the 900. So yet again Mesaba Pilots are set up to get screwed again...by $5/hour...

 

[CptMurf]

You guys keep talking about the 900 like it is a FU#%^NG A330. IT IS A CRJ! It has an extra ugly old lady and a forward potty. Oh, and FIVE WHOLE EXTRA DOLLARS PER HOUR.

I'm sure it is a nice plane, but put your boners away already. Your a CRJ pilot, get over yourselves.

Quite honestly, it's the biggest POS of the 3 transport category that I've flown. But it pays better and the schedules nice.

 

[RJLoser]

Yes folks, Put away the boners. Classic!

 

[Smarta$$]

If QOL was truly the primary factor, your relative seniority will go farther on the 200, i.e. better choice of vacations, more days off, holidays off and weekends off, because it is slightly more junior.

I'm not buying it. I think it is not the 5 bucks an hour you are whining about.