Pinnacle, Mesaba, Colgan SLI

[Smarta$$]

Lets say this guy is a 900 capt at xj.

41 900'. X 6 captains/plane= 246 900 Captains at XJ his seniority hold it

57 900 X 6 Captains/plane = 342 900 Captains combined company new realitive seniority number 630 NO LONGER HOLDS CURRENT POSITION!!

Even with fences every time there is an opening a someone senior to him gets ahead...He'll never get a sumer vacation again, get a weekend off, ect.

Ok... and someone on the 9e list that bids 10% that gets summer vacation and weekends off would lose them after they are forced down by Mesaba pilots. That is different how? Or is it only bad when YOU or YOURS lose seniority?

I want DOH, but your arguements are biased and ignored the losses others have to take.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Well speaking for myself, I am not looking for a jump in seniority. What I want is not to get screwed and have 300 less junior to me get to bypass me.

Real world numbers....
Straight DOH I would be...
97 at 9E
17 at 9L
or 250 ish at XJ
For a combined DOH of about 363 ish.

With straight Relative Seniority I am about 21% at XJ, in the combined list I would be need to be about 630. Which means I would have to let 300 or so pilots in front of me or 10% of the list.

Seeing that I gain the least of all pilots in the JCBA, I would hope that I would also not be screwed in the SLI. This is what I and most of the 98-99 XJ hires are worried about.

We are facing even worse scenario in the 04/05 range. We are going to be pushed off the jets back to FO soon and then after integration instead of having 80 people ahead of us to get our seats back we will have 500-600... We likely will (at least in my case I sure hope to) leave before ever having a chance to get our seats back. Originally we likely would be back with the rest of the flow ups leaving, now it could be 10 years before we can get back to 900 ca.

 

[CptMurf]

The list I have is 1st Qtr 2010. Your right it may have not been "adjusted". But here's the thing, I was hired months before the contract '99 and at the time there were only 300 9E pilots and no hiring. The difference between my list and any adjusted list should be minimal.

SmartA$$- I guess they the level of getting screwed is letting 300 pilots in front of me. Overall, I am for DOH. I entered the industry on a certain date and had my own career expectations. Those were promptly crushed by 9-11, our contract, SARs, our sham BK, the economic collapses, and age 65. I never planned to be here 12 years, downgrade twice, or spend 5 1/2 years on reserve, but I did. Yes, I could have left for Spirit or CAL. But my airlines of choice have yet to hire (read offer interview) since 9-11, therefore I have waited patiently. I just hope I don't have to add the SLI to the list. My concern, is what Ridgeback spoke of, condemned to life on reserve, while 300 people with less time in the industry get to move on in front of me. I have struggled to attain the QOL I have, I don't want to lose it to a person that was in middle school when I started here. Or because they chose to go to 9L 5 years ago and feel equal to a 12 XJ or 9E guy. DOH is fair, that is when we decided to enter the suck. If someone entered before me, then kudos for putting up with it. If you entered after me, keep your airplane and your seat, but get in line after me.

 

[DoinTime]

The list I have is 1st Qtr 2010. Your right it may have not been "adjusted". But here's the thing, I was hired months before the contract '99 and at the time there were only 300 9E pilots and no hiring. The difference between my list and any adjusted list should be minimal.

SmartA$$- I guess they the level of getting screwed is letting 300 pilots in front of me. Overall, I am for DOH. I entered the industry on a certain date and had my own career expectations. Those were promptly crushed by 9-11, our contract, SARs, our sham BK, the economic collapses, and age 65. I never planned to be here 12 years, downgrade twice, or spend 5 1/2 years on reserve, but I did. Yes, I could have left for Spirit or CAL. But my airlines of choice have yet to hire (read offer interview) since 9-11, therefore I have waited patiently. I just hope I don't have to add the SLI to the list. My concern, is what Ridgeback spoke of, condemned to life on reserve, while 300 people with less time in the industry get to move on in front of me. I have struggled to attain the QOL I have, I don't want to lose it to a person that was in middle school when I started here. Or because they chose to go to 9L 5 years ago and feel equal to a 12 XJ or 9E guy. DOH is fair, that is when we decided to enter the suck. If someone entered before me, then kudos for putting up with it. If you entered after me, keep your airplane and your seat, but get in line after me.

If you think you are going to get screwed unless you receive a windfall in relative placement on the combined seniority list then you can pretty much expect to get screwed.

BTW...guys at PCL in the 20% seniority range were generally born in the mid-seventies. They were not in "middle school" when you got hired at Mesaba.

 

[CptMurf]

If you think you are going to get screwed unless you receive a windfall in relative placement on the combined seniority list then you can pretty much expect to get screwed.

BTW...guys at PCL in the 20% seniority range were generally born in the mid-seventies. They were not in "middle school" when you got hired at Mesaba.

I would not call losing 300 numbers by DOH a windfall.... Now for those 300... With that, I fully expect to let some in front of me, as long as it is a reasonable number. 300 is not reasonable.

Now, it is not unreasonable to expect a 5 year 9L CA to be in the 26-28 year old range, thus they were in middle school when I started here. Hell, at XJ I fly with FO that were 3 when I was in Desert Storm. It has nothing to do with age, but their career expectations should carry no more weight than mine.

 

[CptMurf]

If I were a negotiator....

I would research when each of us entered this sector of the industry (for protecting previous furloughed types and the non union ie. SkyWest types) and create a DOH list from those dates. That would be the starting point.

No one would be allowed to lose aircraft or seat. But as vacancies open, someone could bid into a position above them.

Then I would the break the list into 6 parts. CA and FO for the 3 companies. I would identify 3 individuals from each group representing 25%/50%/75% and track how much the DOH list moves them. I would identify any specific areas that would affect them and negotiate any type of kicker (or loss) to protect "Windfalls" specific to the individuals. That gives you 9 resetting points to manage these.

 

[higney85]

If I were a negotiator....

I would research when each of us entered this sector of the industry (for protecting previous furloughed types and the non union ie. SkyWest types) and create a DOH list from those dates. That would be the starting point.

No one would be allowed to lose aircraft or seat. But as vacancies open, someone could bid into a position above them.

Then I would the break the list into 6 parts. CA and FO for the 3 companies. I would identify 3 individuals from each group representing 25%/50%/75% and track how much the DOH list moves them. I would identify any specific areas that would affect them and negotiate any type of kicker (or loss) to protect "Windfalls" specific to the individuals. That gives you 9 resetting points to manage these.

Sounds like a national seniority list that would never be agreed to.

 

[DoinTime]

If I were a negotiator....

I would research when each of us entered this sector of the industry (for protecting previous furloughed types and the non union ie. SkyWest types) and create a DOH list from those dates. That would be the starting point.

No one would be allowed to lose aircraft or seat. But as vacancies open, someone could bid into a position above them.

Then I would the break the list into 6 parts. CA and FO for the 3 companies. I would identify 3 individuals from each group representing 25%/50%/75% and track how much the DOH list moves them. I would identify any specific areas that would affect them and negotiate any type of kicker (or loss) to protect "Windfalls" specific to the individuals. That gives you 9 resetting points to manage these.

Its a good thing you aren't a negotiator.

 

[CptMurf]

Its a good thing you aren't a negotiator.

Your probably right... Glad your not one either.

 

[Ridgeback]

Ok... and someone on the 9e list that bids 10% that gets summer vacation and weekends off would lose them after they are forced down by Mesaba pilots. That is different how? Or is it only bad when YOU or YOURS lose seniority?

I want DOH, but your arguements are biased and ignored the losses others have to take.

How about this?

Come up with what ever seniority intergration you want...with Fences...BUT

Create sub seniority list...example...The Mesaba 900 Memphis base has 50 captains. Those positions are fenced. If captain # 25 gets hired at brand X and vacates his position...anyone bidding into that spot now becomes number 50...the rest of the list moves up until the orginal #50 guy vacates his spot.

This prevents the super total seniority pilot (most likely a 9E 200 Memphis captain) from pushing anyone out his spot...no need to worry about always being on reserve...never getting a weekend off...ect.

You will still move up in senority as if we never merged the lists and we as a group still reap the bennys of the new contract. You can keep your plans and I'll keep mine...

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

How about this?

Come up with what ever seniority intergration you want...with Fences...BUT

Create sub seniority list...example...The Mesaba 900 Memphis base has 50 captains. Those positions are fenced. If captain # 25 gets hired at brand X and vacates his position...anyone bidding into that spot now becomes number 50...the rest of the list moves up until the orginal #50 guy vacates his spot.

This prevents the super total seniority pilot (most likely a 9E 200 Memphis captain) from pushing anyone out his spot...no need to worry about always being on reserve...never getting a weekend off...ect.

You will still move up in senority as if we never merged the lists and we as a group still reap the bennys of the new contract. You can keep your plans and I'll keep mine...

I was thinking something similar but I would add that we know another 108 XJ people are flowing. Let the XJ people slide up into those spots. Seems fair. 9E got signing bonus, 9L well lets just say they came out pretty good, I personally didn't get much in this deal.

Before you put a bomb under my car, I am not even slightly serious about this idea...

 

[xjhawk]

The list I have is 1st Qtr 2010. Your right it may have not been "adjusted". But here's the thing, I was hired months before the contract '99 and at the time there were only 300 9E pilots and no hiring. The difference between my list and any adjusted list should be minimal.

SmartA$$- I guess they the level of getting screwed is letting 300 pilots in front of me. Overall, I am for DOH. I entered the industry on a certain date and had my own career expectations. Those were promptly crushed by 9-11, our contract, SARs, our sham BK, the economic collapses, and age 65. I never planned to be here 12 years, downgrade twice, or spend 5 1/2 years on reserve, but I did. Yes, I could have left for Spirit or CAL. But my airlines of choice have yet to hire (read offer interview) since 9-11, therefore I have waited patiently. I just hope I don't have to add the SLI to the list. My concern, is what Ridgeback spoke of, condemned to life on reserve, while 300 people with less time in the industry get to move on in front of me. I have struggled to attain the QOL I have, I don't want to lose it to a person that was in middle school when I started here. Or because they chose to go to 9L 5 years ago and feel equal to a 12 XJ or 9E guy. DOH is fair, that is when we decided to enter the suck. If someone entered before me, then kudos for putting up with it. If you entered after me, keep your airplane and your seat, but get in line after me.[/Q

There us noth a thing you said wrong here. But the ever important ALPA merger policy might make us bend. But I say this, just maybe if our three guys argue a good enough fight how the other two pilot groups have gotten so much while we have given up so much in the TA that just maybe things can be tilted towards a more DOH type list. I have also heard that the arbitrator is someone who has used date of hire in the past, so what we must say is hold strong and let him decide.

 

[suupah]

Date of hire without fences would not be fair to cjc pilots. I think that longevity should count for something, but there must be a way to integrate such that in the new company, your bidding for schedules and vacation will be close to what you had prior to the merger. I have been at cjc for 6 years and am sitting at about 15%. I hold weekends off/capt on the Q. I don't expect to come out at 15% on the combined list but anywhere under 25% would be justifiable and acceptable to me.

The argument about CJC gaining so much in the contract does not work for me personally as I would rather keep my current pay and workrules with weekends off then get the pay bump (I rarely if ever get extended or junior manned, have less then 11 days off, work for less than 4 hours in a day as it is so the work rules I have seen so far don't help me that much) and lose my schedule. My schedule is my quality of life.

 

[Simon Says]

Date of hire without fences would not be fair to cjc pilots. I think that longevity should count for something, but there must be a way to integrate such that in the new company, your bidding for schedules and vacation will be close to what you had prior to the merger. I have been at cjc for 6 years and am sitting at about 15%. I hold weekends off/capt on the Q. I don't expect to come out at 15% on the combined list but anywhere under 25% would be justifiable and acceptable to me.

The argument about CJC gaining so much in the contract does not work for me personally as I would rather keep my current pay and workrules with weekends off then get the pay bump (I rarely if ever get extended or junior manned, have less then 11 days off, work for less than 4 hours in a day as it is so the work rules I have seen so far don't help me that much) and lose my schedule. My schedule is my quality of life.

Here is the problem Suupah.

I have been at Mesaba for 12 years and barely 25% of my list. If you are hoping to get 25% I think your goals are fairly lofty.

Let me ask you this. Do you think you should be senior to me on the combined SLI list?

 

[suupah]

Here is the problem Suupah.

I have been at Mesaba for 12 years and barely 25% of my list. If you are hoping to get 25% I think your goals are fairly lofty.

Let me ask you this. Do you think you should be senior to me on the combined SLI list?

Listen, I understand you have more time at company than I and I don't think I should be senior to you. I just hope they can find a solution that is the least detrimental to everyone's quality of life pre merger.

Do you think I should take a big hit in my quality of life over this merger? Should I have to go back to tuesday, wednesday's off because PNCL decided to purchase Mesaba?

What is fair? How would you define it?