Pinnacle, Mesaba, Colgan SLI

[CptMurf]

I don't get it... Why are Mesaba pilot expecting a jump in seniority when you are merging with two airlines with substantial hiring including a/c delivery when you have pilots on furlough and losing a/c? Because less pay/different work rules? I just don't see it.

Well speaking for myself, I am not looking for a jump in seniority. What I want is not to get screwed and have 300 less junior to me get to bypass me.

Real world numbers....
Straight DOH I would be...
97 at 9E
17 at 9L
or 250 ish at XJ
For a combined DOH of about 363 ish.

With straight Relative Seniority I am about 21% at XJ, in the combined list I would be need to be about 630. Which means I would have to let 300 or so pilots in front of me or 10% of the list.

Seeing that I gain the least of all pilots in the JCBA, I would hope that I would also not be screwed in the SLI. This is what I and most of the 98-99 XJ hires are worried about.

 

[Smarta$$]

Well speaking for myself, I am not looking for a jump in seniority. What I want is not to get screwed and have 300 less junior to me get to bypass me.

Real world numbers....
Straight DOH I would be...
97 at 9E
17 at 9L
or 250 ish at XJ
For a combined DOH of about 363 ish.

With straight Relative Seniority I am about 21% at XJ, in the combined list I would be need to be about 630. Which means I would have to let 300 or so pilots in front of me or 10% of the list.

Seeing that I gain the least of all pilots in the JCBA, I would hope that I would also not be screwed in the SLI. This is what I and most of the 98-99 XJ hires are worried about.

So.... If you don't get pushed UP from the 21% you are on your current seniority list to 10% on the new seniority list, you are getting screwed...

Keeping in mind that for you to go up 10%, others that are presently at 10% have to lose seniority and get forced down.

Or are there maybe more than one way to get screwed?

I do support DOH (for my own reasons), but think you are being a little narrow in your definition of screwed.

 

[Ridgeback]

Well speaking for myself, I am not looking for a jump in seniority. What I want is not to get screwed and have 300 less junior to me get to bypass me.

Real world numbers....
Straight DOH I would be...
97 at 9E
17 at 9L
or 250 ish at XJ
For a combined DOH of about 363 ish.

With straight Relative Seniority I am about 21% at XJ, in the combined list I would be need to be about 630. Which means I would have to let 300 or so pilots in front of me or 10% of the list.

Seeing that I gain the least of all pilots in the JCBA, I would hope that I would also not be screwed in the SLI. This is what I and most of the 98-99 XJ hires are worried about.

Lets say this guy is a 900 capt at xj.

41 900'. X 6 captains/plane= 246 900 Captains at XJ his seniority hold it

57 900 X 6 Captains/plane = 342 900 Captains combined company new realitive seniority number 630 NO LONGER HOLDS CURRENT POSITION!!

Even with fences every time there is an opening a someone senior to him gets ahead...He'll never get a sumer vacation again, get a weekend off, ect.

 

[redflyer65]

Steel cage death match. The only way to go.

 

[higney85]

Lets say this guy is a 900 capt at xj.

41 900'. X 6 captains/plane= 246 900 Captains at XJ his seniority hold it

57 900 X 6 Captains/plane = 342 900 Captains combined company new realitive seniority number 630 NO LONGER HOLDS CURRENT POSITION!!

Even with fences every time there is an opening a someone senior to him gets ahead...He'll never get a sumer vacation again, get a weekend off, ect.

I have been asked to not talk about the actual Sli but I will say something to this aside from the Sli. There will be no "flush bid" meaning nobody can be kicked out of their current base, seat, and equip. Keep in mind that if someone like murf's seniority goes down (in his hypothetical worst case) he would still be a -900 CA but would bid farther down on the list in MSP. Also keep in mind that seniority lists per equip are not always linear. We have some guys who are in the top 10% of the 9E list who are FO's by choice. 9E also has guys on the -900 that are junior. As an example- I could be a very senior 900 FO in ATL, but I live in MEM so I stayed on the -200 with great seniority. Personally I will only upgrade in MEM, if that is only a -200 that's fine for QOL. Just as there are some 9L guys who could (in the end) hold a line on the jet but will stay on the Q or Saab because of QOL. I fly with many at 9E who are single digit seniority numbers and only a few have talked about going to the -900, but even then it's only "If we get some based in MEM". It's the same mindset that existed when the -900's were first announced here a few years ago. Money isn't everything, but don't get me wrong- it's important.

Also- Murf, I hope you are using the "finalized" 9E list and not just a bid list due to the class date/DOH matchup.

 

[Smarta$$]

Lets say this guy is a 900 capt at xj.

41 900'. X 6 captains/plane= 246 900 Captains at XJ his seniority hold it

57 900 X 6 Captains/plane = 342 900 Captains combined company new realitive seniority number 630 NO LONGER HOLDS CURRENT POSITION!!

Even with fences every time there is an opening a someone senior to him gets ahead...He'll never get a sumer vacation again, get a weekend off, ect.

Ok... and someone on the 9e list that bids 10% that gets summer vacation and weekends off would lose them after they are forced down by Mesaba pilots. That is different how? Or is it only bad when YOU or YOURS lose seniority?

I want DOH, but your arguements are biased and ignored the losses others have to take.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Well speaking for myself, I am not looking for a jump in seniority. What I want is not to get screwed and have 300 less junior to me get to bypass me.

Real world numbers....
Straight DOH I would be...
97 at 9E
17 at 9L
or 250 ish at XJ
For a combined DOH of about 363 ish.

With straight Relative Seniority I am about 21% at XJ, in the combined list I would be need to be about 630. Which means I would have to let 300 or so pilots in front of me or 10% of the list.

Seeing that I gain the least of all pilots in the JCBA, I would hope that I would also not be screwed in the SLI. This is what I and most of the 98-99 XJ hires are worried about.

We are facing even worse scenario in the 04/05 range. We are going to be pushed off the jets back to FO soon and then after integration instead of having 80 people ahead of us to get our seats back we will have 500-600... We likely will (at least in my case I sure hope to) leave before ever having a chance to get our seats back. Originally we likely would be back with the rest of the flow ups leaving, now it could be 10 years before we can get back to 900 ca.

 

[CptMurf]

The list I have is 1st Qtr 2010. Your right it may have not been "adjusted". But here's the thing, I was hired months before the contract '99 and at the time there were only 300 9E pilots and no hiring. The difference between my list and any adjusted list should be minimal.

SmartA$$- I guess they the level of getting screwed is letting 300 pilots in front of me. Overall, I am for DOH. I entered the industry on a certain date and had my own career expectations. Those were promptly crushed by 9-11, our contract, SARs, our sham BK, the economic collapses, and age 65. I never planned to be here 12 years, downgrade twice, or spend 5 1/2 years on reserve, but I did. Yes, I could have left for Spirit or CAL. But my airlines of choice have yet to hire (read offer interview) since 9-11, therefore I have waited patiently. I just hope I don't have to add the SLI to the list. My concern, is what Ridgeback spoke of, condemned to life on reserve, while 300 people with less time in the industry get to move on in front of me. I have struggled to attain the QOL I have, I don't want to lose it to a person that was in middle school when I started here. Or because they chose to go to 9L 5 years ago and feel equal to a 12 XJ or 9E guy. DOH is fair, that is when we decided to enter the suck. If someone entered before me, then kudos for putting up with it. If you entered after me, keep your airplane and your seat, but get in line after me.

 

[DoinTime]

The list I have is 1st Qtr 2010. Your right it may have not been "adjusted". But here's the thing, I was hired months before the contract '99 and at the time there were only 300 9E pilots and no hiring. The difference between my list and any adjusted list should be minimal.

SmartA$$- I guess they the level of getting screwed is letting 300 pilots in front of me. Overall, I am for DOH. I entered the industry on a certain date and had my own career expectations. Those were promptly crushed by 9-11, our contract, SARs, our sham BK, the economic collapses, and age 65. I never planned to be here 12 years, downgrade twice, or spend 5 1/2 years on reserve, but I did. Yes, I could have left for Spirit or CAL. But my airlines of choice have yet to hire (read offer interview) since 9-11, therefore I have waited patiently. I just hope I don't have to add the SLI to the list. My concern, is what Ridgeback spoke of, condemned to life on reserve, while 300 people with less time in the industry get to move on in front of me. I have struggled to attain the QOL I have, I don't want to lose it to a person that was in middle school when I started here. Or because they chose to go to 9L 5 years ago and feel equal to a 12 XJ or 9E guy. DOH is fair, that is when we decided to enter the suck. If someone entered before me, then kudos for putting up with it. If you entered after me, keep your airplane and your seat, but get in line after me.

If you think you are going to get screwed unless you receive a windfall in relative placement on the combined seniority list then you can pretty much expect to get screwed.

BTW...guys at PCL in the 20% seniority range were generally born in the mid-seventies. They were not in "middle school" when you got hired at Mesaba.

 

[CptMurf]

If you think you are going to get screwed unless you receive a windfall in relative placement on the combined seniority list then you can pretty much expect to get screwed.

BTW...guys at PCL in the 20% seniority range were generally born in the mid-seventies. They were not in "middle school" when you got hired at Mesaba.

I would not call losing 300 numbers by DOH a windfall.... Now for those 300... With that, I fully expect to let some in front of me, as long as it is a reasonable number. 300 is not reasonable.

Now, it is not unreasonable to expect a 5 year 9L CA to be in the 26-28 year old range, thus they were in middle school when I started here. Hell, at XJ I fly with FO that were 3 when I was in Desert Storm. It has nothing to do with age, but their career expectations should carry no more weight than mine.