Pinnacle, Mesaba, Colgan SLI

[AiRegency]

Your current seniority is based on your hire date at your originating airline. Your hire date is irrelevant to me. I don't work at your airline. In fact, you'll be coming to work at my airline.[/QUOTE

I believe it will be mine too since it was yours and my parent company who bought us (Mesaba). Not, get this through your head, your airline who bought mesaba. So in this real world in which we live you must care how my date of hire (we are all ALPA are we not?) is.

To answer that Colgan guys question now, about the 03 hires. I am an 03 hire and I am 403 on the list (36%). I would be more senior ( by a few numbers) on the 900 but sit on reserve on the 200.

I would love to know if you'd be singin' this same tune if it had been MAIR holdings that bought 9E. I doubt you would be. Besides, its already been well established that 9E Inc is just an alter ego to 9E airlines. One arbitrator (or was it a mediator) already concluded this. But I imagine every XJ pilot is familiar with this concept.

The fact is that the only reason that 9E Inc had the cash to buy XJ and 9L is because of the hard work and suffering for the past 6 years of 9E pilots. They shouldn't lose ANY quality of life because of it.

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

The fact is that the only reason that 9E Inc had the cash to buy XJ and 9L is because of the hard work and suffering for the past 6 years of 9E pilots. They shouldn't lose ANY quality of life because of it.

The only reason 9e had the cash to buy XJ was a 100% financing deal that included a 10+ year contract extension for 200's and 900's. Maybe that argument is correct for 9L but don't put us in that category.

 

[CptMurf]

I would love to know if you'd be singin' this same tune if it had been MAIR holdings that bought 9E. I doubt you would be. Besides, its already been well established that 9E Inc is just an alter ego to 9E airlines. One arbitrator (or was it a mediator) already concluded this. But I imagine every XJ pilot is familiar with this concept.

The fact is that the only reason that 9E Inc had the cash to buy XJ and 9L is because of the hard work and suffering for the past 6 years of 9E pilots. They shouldn't lose ANY quality of life because of it.

Uhhh PNCL didn't have any cash to buy XJ. Delta financed the whole deal.

Our Section 1 is what started the JCBA/SLI. If it weren't there, I suppose we would be treated as 9L was. Wasn't there a push to scope them out? Alas, we did the same to BigSky though....

An alter ego scenario would only exist if there was only 1 airline, owned by 1 holdings company. Once 9L and XJ were purchased the situation changed, this is a true holdings company. The profits holdings realizes are not solely from the gains of one airline.

 

[DoinTime]

Uhhh PNCL didn't have any cash to buy XJ. Delta financed the whole deal.

Our Section 1 is what started the JCBA/SLI. If it weren't there, I suppose we would be treated as 9L was. Wasn't there a push to scope them out? Alas, we did the same to BigSky though....

An alter ego scenario would only exist if there was only 1 airline, owned by 1 holdings company. Once 9L and XJ were purchased the situation changed, this is a true holdings company. The profits holdings realizes are not solely from the gains of one airline.

Mesaba scope did nothing to push Corp into this 3-way integration.

 

[DoinTime]

To answer that Colgan guys question now, about the 03 hires. I am an 03 hire and I am 403 on the list (36%). I would be more senior ( by a few numbers) on the 900 but sit on reserve on the 200.

36% is mid-2004 hires at PCL. On the combined list, 36% would make you a pretty comfortable line holding jet captain in the base of your choosing. Contrast that with your being an FO at an independent Mesaba.

 

[CptMurf]

Contrast that with your being an FO at an independent Mesaba.

Hope your rationalization that cost him 1 1/2 years of longevity, makes you sleep better at night.

 

[CptMurf]

Mesaba scope did nothing to push Corp into this 3-way integration.

The fiasco following fragmentation without integration had everyting to do with the 2-way integration. Holdings had already decided to integrate XJ/9L at the purchase announcement.

 

[xjhawk]

Yes the writing was on the wall, it still is. The SAabs are leaving which would have put a lot of XJ captains in a bad position. For those of us hired before the bankruptcy we know the deal. Draw down, build up. I was displaced before and was prepared for it again but guess what? If you think Delta is just going to abandon all that flying you should look at what happened to the Avro flying-oh that is right there are 36 Emb 175's and 41 CRJ 900's flying those routes. Delta will replace that flying with something. I am willing to bet that is the back side deal Delta gave Pinnacle Holdings for them to take a company with higher pay and better work rules than they were willing to give to their workers.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Yes the writing was on the wall, it still is. The SAabs are leaving which would have put a lot of XJ captains in a bad position. For those of us hired before the bankruptcy we know the deal. Draw down, build up. I was displaced before and was prepared for it again but guess what? If you think Delta is just going to abandon all that flying you should look at what happened to the Avro flying-oh that is right there are 36 Emb 175's and 41 CRJ 900's flying those routes. Delta will replace that flying with something. I am willing to bet that is the back side deal Delta gave Pinnacle Holdings for them to take a company with higher pay and better work rules than they were willing to give to their workers.

Yea I am thinking more and more this is turning into a repeat of the "big announcement of 2005" here Something isn't adding up yet. Especially after the company voluntarily backfilled Saab CA's after NOT doing so for so long, granted I can see them not wanting to deal with buying yet another round of temporary 900 captain types like they had to do last year with this mess. But they have been delaying for a reason, the question is why?

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

I think it's funny that during our bankruptcy that all the small towns in North/South Dakota, Iowa, Minnesota had their Governors and Senators SCREAMING about losing air service but since DAL has said they are parking SAAB's I haven't heard anything from these places.

Between the agreement-guarantee DAL/NWA made to Minnesota to keep jobs in the state we haven't heard a word about that either since both Compass and Mesaba were sold.

It's possible that we could lose all the DAL SAAB's but I think there must be something going on in the background. While I don't think it's financially viable to have a Q400 doing Mason City/Ft Dodge or Devil's Lake, I don't think the turboprop is dead.

I don't think people care about props or jets. They care about overhead space, APU's, stand up cabin's, noise control, and comfy seats. I never heard a complaint about Republic's Convair 580's. I think it's cheaper to keep a SAAB than re-equip the fleet with a smaller Q. Although I think the 300 would be a great SAAB replacement. Heck take a 400 and put 12/16 First class seats in it and the rest regular seats and I think Delta would go for it. MSP-ASPEN becomes an option again. Very senior XJ guys go back to their first love...

I believe there is more to this turboprop stuff than we know.

 

[CptMurf]

Just they idea of making one company all jet and one all turboprop is ludicrous if the turboprop is dead. You would be condemning one of your companies from the get go. Be it more Saab flying or more Qs, I think you guys have something here. Although I would doubt it would be a smaller dash.

 

[Kaman]

In 10 years we will be looking at an all Q-400 fleet at Mesaba approx. 100 airframes and on the Pinnacle side an equal number of 900s. The resultant pilot group will be about 2000 pilots. And, for those of you that have any worries about the immediate future, I am thinking that at least HALF or more of the pilots currently at PNCL Holdings 3 companies will have moved onto to better pastures. I don't see the -300 coming to Mesaba, in fact I predict even more consolidation and reduction of airline service to smaller communities. We are already seeing fuel costs rising, in spite of a brief drop due to a lower demand. The same policies, extraction/refining and distribution problems still exist and the airlines know this. Not only is the 35/50 seat jet economically obsolete, so is the smaller turboprops.

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

In 10 years we will be looking at an all Q-400 fleet at Mesaba approx. 100 airframes and on the Pinnacle side an equal number of 900s. The resultant pilot group will be about 2000 pilots. And, for those of you that have any worries about the immediate future, I am thinking that at least HALF or more of the pilots currently at PNCL Holdings 3 companies will have moved onto to better pastures. I don't see the -300 coming to Mesaba, in fact I predict even more consolidation and reduction of airline service to smaller communities. We are already seeing fuel costs rising, in spite of a brief drop due to a lower demand. The same policies, extraction/refining and distribution problems still exist and the airlines know this. Not only is the 35/50 seat jet economically obsolete, so is the smaller turboprops.

All good points. I have trouble with the 35/50 seat obsolete issue. I think airlines will just stop flying to the small cities rather than fly an aircraft with a lower CASM. If not we'd all be flying 777's to Cedar Rapids cause the CASM is so low. Doesn't matter the seat cost when that same seat is empty.

I only mention the Q300 cause we have a pay rate that it falls into. Q400's make the most sense but I have rarely seen anyone in the airline industry do anything because it made sense.

It might be cheaper to just pay someone to refurbish/reskin/rebuild SAAB's.

As to the 200's disappearing MAYBE. I think once the fleet is right sized the 200's will be around for quite a while yet. No one ever mentions putting more efficient and powerful engines on them. If they could briskly get to the high 30's and burn less fuel while going faster -they'd get a life extension. Just like old Citations, Learjets, and numerous others. Of course it's cheaper to scrap the fleet and get the metal deposits back but if done correctly it could be cost effective.

900's and Q400's - that wouldn't be so bad.

 

[xjhawk]

Just they idea of making one company all jet and one all turboprop is ludicrous if the turboprop is dead. You would be condemning one of your companies from the get go. Be it more Saab flying or more Qs, I think you guys have something here. Although I would doubt it would be a smaller dash.

With continentals scope the Turbo Prop is far from dead. That will be the only way they will be able to touch the markets with a 70 seat AC

 

[Carl_Spackler]

I think the idea that the -200's are obsolete is a fallacy. If they were truly losing money for delta they wouldn't exist. While it may be true that they might lose some money on some certain routes they probably recoup that money and make more when the pax connect to higher yield routes.

 

[Kaman]

I don't think that the 35/50 seat jet is dead, but it's utility in the current marketplace and cost structure of today isn't economically viable for a significant number of routes. As a pilot, I am like a Pentagon General..."I never saw a weapon system, I didn't like", however I might like to fly a particular airplane it has really nothing to do with equation.
The fact, is the CRJ/ERJ do lose money with current fuel prices and every indication that they will continue to rise. So, the solution is to either offer less flights at a higher cost to support the CASM and still have sufficient yields to make a profit or look for other solutions.
The concept of having seemless service by offering jet equipment operated by codeshares was a very good idea from a marketing standpoint. CEOs loved the idea and so did the marketing folks. The pilots were basically buffaloed into thinking that trading in their Shorts, ATP, CV-580, ATR, etc...thought that this was a great idea until they realized that it was actually like cutting off your own nose to spite your face.
Scope was the way the majors at the time felt was the best way to deal with the RJ revolution and didn't realize that a replacement for the DC-9/737 fleet WAS NOT going to be a mainline airplane! Why do you think that the Bedford group is attempting to corner the market in the 175/190(5) market? JO at MAIR GRoup might be a lousy employer, but he isn't a bad businessman and his lean 700/900 fleet is the model for the future. Again, I didn't say I like the place or that I think JO is "great" guy (I don't know him personally), but he IS a shrewd businessman like the guy that runs RyanAir in Ireland. Not a pilot's buddy, but he makes money and offers a product that people want.
Going back to the large turboprop...75-90 seat airplane that has 350 knot TAS at 25K and sips fuel at half the amount of a 50-seater is the PERFECT airplane for the Northeast corridor especially and along the busy SAN-LAX-SFO-PDX-SEA corridor as well. I am not an expert, but I have done quite a bit of reading on this topic and have seen a revival of the large turboprop coming for many years.
We work in a dynamic industry that is ever-changing and volatile for everyone involved. Being flexible is key to survival, and until the current model change mainline is going to continue evolving with even more emphasis on regional airlines. The recent ruling by the court in favor of Continental's scope will serve to put even more turboprops in the mix. History and time will tell if the "large turboprop" revolution will be a success in the way that managers hoped offering "seem-less service" would be when Comair introduced the CRJ in 1992.
in 1992.

 

[suupah]

Going back to the large turboprop...75-90 seat airplane that has 350 knot TAS at 25K and sips fuel at half the amount of a 50-seater is the PERFECT airplane for the Northeast corridor especially and along the busy SAN-LAX-SFO-PDX-SEA corridor as well. I am not an expert, but I have done quite a bit of reading on this topic and have seen a revival of the large turboprop coming for many years.

precisely why I see pncl building a NorthEastern Q empire with domiciles in EWR, IAD, and ORD. It is the perfect mix of high density markets, short stage lengths and route overlap. I think IAH is not the best utilization of the Q and will likely not last long if at all.

 

[CptMurf]

Dredging up an old thread....

An XJ FO proposed this idea to me, it seems to have some potential, but I wanted to throw it to the wolves to pick apart.

What if you separated the 3 companies list by 0%-10%, 10%-20%, 20%-30%, etc. Then take the 3 0%-10% groups and merge them by DOH. And so on, and so on. This guarantees that you would stay in your 10% percentage, but corrects somewhat for DOH. I have not figured out how this would work for my seniority, but I see potential in this idea. It might even be better with 5% breaks.

 

[Jetjockey]

Wow, signs of intelligent life in FI. Good posts Kaman and suppah. I think you guys are going to be proven correct, large turbo-props will see a resurgence in the US airline market.

 

[Flyprdu]

Dredging up an old thread....

An XJ FO proposed this idea to me, it seems to have some potential, but I wanted to throw it to the wolves to pick apart.

What if you separated the 3 companies list by 0%-10%, 10%-20%, 20%-30%, etc. Then take the 3 0%-10% groups and merge them by DOH. And so on, and so on. This guarantees that you would stay in your 10% percentage, but corrects somewhat for DOH. I have not figured out how this would work for my seniority, but I see potential in this idea. It might even be better with 5% breaks.

Nice idea, but the smaller the divisions, the closer it resembles a relative method.

If you got caught on the edge of a cutoff, you could get completely screwed. It was a nice idea, but there are better ones out there.

Wouldn't it be unfortunate if a pilot that got stuck in subgroup E had more longevity than any of the pilots in subgroups C and D combined...