Pinnacle, Mesaba, Colgan SLI

[CptMurf]

That is what should happen then. You guys merge, and we'll stay on our own.

Problem with comparing this to Usairways is the Arbitrator Nikolay disagrees with you. he seemed to think a mostly relative solution was the fairest way to go with the us east/west scenario.

I see the points of all sides here. There is no way that feels right to everyone. I feel that if I ended up a 55%, that i have nothing to gain in this merger and would rather stay separate. You feel that if you are usurped in bidding by a 6 year guy, you are getting royally screwed (i can easily see how you could feel that way). We can all agree our merger committee's have a tough job to do and no matter what they decide the top ten guys will probably be happy and with the rest of us, its a crap shoot at this point.

We have some really sharp, level headed guys on our merger committee, i am sure you guys do as well. We just have to leave it up to them.

I completely agree. And I can see both sides to this too. At the end of the day though, this lists WILL merge and there will be a lot of upset people, no matter what.

 

[mesaba13]

The difference with the NWA/DELTA deal is that with relative seniority you may have only lost around 2-years versus date of hire. Example: A 1978 hire at delta went ahead of a 1976 NWA hire. The hard part for me is that a 5 year guy at 9E is similiar relative seniority but has half the years I have.

I would be okay with a 8-9 year guy going ahead of me but a 5 year guy?

 

[suupah]

The difference with the NWA/DELTA deal is that with relative seniority you may have only lost around 2-years versus date of hire. Example: A 1978 hire at delta went ahead of a 1976 NWA hire. The hard part for me is that a 5 year guy at 9E is similiar relative seniority but has half the years I have.

I would be okay with a 8-9 year guy going ahead of me but a 5 year guy?

holy mother of @#%#$ could you imagine if comair merged with anyone? geezus. The seniority of the pilot groups should be a huge factor in analyzing the mergability (not a real word, i know) of two companies.

 

[xjhawk]

Your current seniority is based on your hire date at your originating airline. Your hire date is irrelevant to me. I don't work at your airline. In fact, you'll be coming to work at my airline.[/QUOTE

I believe it will be mine too since it was yours and my parent company who bought us (Mesaba). Not, get this through your head, your airline who bought mesaba. So in this real world in which we live you must care how my date of hire (we are all ALPA are we not?) is.

To answer that Colgan guys question now, about the 03 hires. I am an 03 hire and I am 403 on the list (36%). I would be more senior ( by a few numbers) on the 900 but sit on reserve on the 200.

 

[xjhawk]

The same thing can be said about a merger with Horizon. The difference with Horizon is that they all live out in the west so there would be no worries about using DOH or relative. They are most likely not coming this way. I am also happy we have good people who can think this through to come up with a solution. I think its ironic that the most vocal people for a certain viewpoint can say what they are saying given that their views exclude their own people. Take for instance the senior 9E guys want relative when DOH would greatly help the bottom half of their list. The reverse can be said for the MEsaba list. I was hired at Mesaba (03) before Pinnacle startd their first real big hiring in 04 and would be okay with either way (relative or DOH) but would be better off with DOH but understand fences need to be in place to protect the colgan pilots. I am no expert in fences (though I plan on building one)but they should protect the schedules and total QOL

 

[AiRegency]

Your current seniority is based on your hire date at your originating airline. Your hire date is irrelevant to me. I don't work at your airline. In fact, you'll be coming to work at my airline.[/QUOTE

I believe it will be mine too since it was yours and my parent company who bought us (Mesaba). Not, get this through your head, your airline who bought mesaba. So in this real world in which we live you must care how my date of hire (we are all ALPA are we not?) is.

To answer that Colgan guys question now, about the 03 hires. I am an 03 hire and I am 403 on the list (36%). I would be more senior ( by a few numbers) on the 900 but sit on reserve on the 200.

I would love to know if you'd be singin' this same tune if it had been MAIR holdings that bought 9E. I doubt you would be. Besides, its already been well established that 9E Inc is just an alter ego to 9E airlines. One arbitrator (or was it a mediator) already concluded this. But I imagine every XJ pilot is familiar with this concept.

The fact is that the only reason that 9E Inc had the cash to buy XJ and 9L is because of the hard work and suffering for the past 6 years of 9E pilots. They shouldn't lose ANY quality of life because of it.

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

The fact is that the only reason that 9E Inc had the cash to buy XJ and 9L is because of the hard work and suffering for the past 6 years of 9E pilots. They shouldn't lose ANY quality of life because of it.

The only reason 9e had the cash to buy XJ was a 100% financing deal that included a 10+ year contract extension for 200's and 900's. Maybe that argument is correct for 9L but don't put us in that category.

 

[CptMurf]

I would love to know if you'd be singin' this same tune if it had been MAIR holdings that bought 9E. I doubt you would be. Besides, its already been well established that 9E Inc is just an alter ego to 9E airlines. One arbitrator (or was it a mediator) already concluded this. But I imagine every XJ pilot is familiar with this concept.

The fact is that the only reason that 9E Inc had the cash to buy XJ and 9L is because of the hard work and suffering for the past 6 years of 9E pilots. They shouldn't lose ANY quality of life because of it.

Uhhh PNCL didn't have any cash to buy XJ. Delta financed the whole deal.

Our Section 1 is what started the JCBA/SLI. If it weren't there, I suppose we would be treated as 9L was. Wasn't there a push to scope them out? Alas, we did the same to BigSky though....

An alter ego scenario would only exist if there was only 1 airline, owned by 1 holdings company. Once 9L and XJ were purchased the situation changed, this is a true holdings company. The profits holdings realizes are not solely from the gains of one airline.

 

[DoinTime]

Uhhh PNCL didn't have any cash to buy XJ. Delta financed the whole deal.

Our Section 1 is what started the JCBA/SLI. If it weren't there, I suppose we would be treated as 9L was. Wasn't there a push to scope them out? Alas, we did the same to BigSky though....

An alter ego scenario would only exist if there was only 1 airline, owned by 1 holdings company. Once 9L and XJ were purchased the situation changed, this is a true holdings company. The profits holdings realizes are not solely from the gains of one airline.

Mesaba scope did nothing to push Corp into this 3-way integration.

 

[DoinTime]

To answer that Colgan guys question now, about the 03 hires. I am an 03 hire and I am 403 on the list (36%). I would be more senior ( by a few numbers) on the 900 but sit on reserve on the 200.

36% is mid-2004 hires at PCL. On the combined list, 36% would make you a pretty comfortable line holding jet captain in the base of your choosing. Contrast that with your being an FO at an independent Mesaba.

 

[CptMurf]

Contrast that with your being an FO at an independent Mesaba.

Hope your rationalization that cost him 1 1/2 years of longevity, makes you sleep better at night.

 

[CptMurf]

Mesaba scope did nothing to push Corp into this 3-way integration.

The fiasco following fragmentation without integration had everyting to do with the 2-way integration. Holdings had already decided to integrate XJ/9L at the purchase announcement.

 

[xjhawk]

Yes the writing was on the wall, it still is. The SAabs are leaving which would have put a lot of XJ captains in a bad position. For those of us hired before the bankruptcy we know the deal. Draw down, build up. I was displaced before and was prepared for it again but guess what? If you think Delta is just going to abandon all that flying you should look at what happened to the Avro flying-oh that is right there are 36 Emb 175's and 41 CRJ 900's flying those routes. Delta will replace that flying with something. I am willing to bet that is the back side deal Delta gave Pinnacle Holdings for them to take a company with higher pay and better work rules than they were willing to give to their workers.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Yes the writing was on the wall, it still is. The SAabs are leaving which would have put a lot of XJ captains in a bad position. For those of us hired before the bankruptcy we know the deal. Draw down, build up. I was displaced before and was prepared for it again but guess what? If you think Delta is just going to abandon all that flying you should look at what happened to the Avro flying-oh that is right there are 36 Emb 175's and 41 CRJ 900's flying those routes. Delta will replace that flying with something. I am willing to bet that is the back side deal Delta gave Pinnacle Holdings for them to take a company with higher pay and better work rules than they were willing to give to their workers.

Yea I am thinking more and more this is turning into a repeat of the "big announcement of 2005" here Something isn't adding up yet. Especially after the company voluntarily backfilled Saab CA's after NOT doing so for so long, granted I can see them not wanting to deal with buying yet another round of temporary 900 captain types like they had to do last year with this mess. But they have been delaying for a reason, the question is why?

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

I think it's funny that during our bankruptcy that all the small towns in North/South Dakota, Iowa, Minnesota had their Governors and Senators SCREAMING about losing air service but since DAL has said they are parking SAAB's I haven't heard anything from these places.

Between the agreement-guarantee DAL/NWA made to Minnesota to keep jobs in the state we haven't heard a word about that either since both Compass and Mesaba were sold.

It's possible that we could lose all the DAL SAAB's but I think there must be something going on in the background. While I don't think it's financially viable to have a Q400 doing Mason City/Ft Dodge or Devil's Lake, I don't think the turboprop is dead.

I don't think people care about props or jets. They care about overhead space, APU's, stand up cabin's, noise control, and comfy seats. I never heard a complaint about Republic's Convair 580's. I think it's cheaper to keep a SAAB than re-equip the fleet with a smaller Q. Although I think the 300 would be a great SAAB replacement. Heck take a 400 and put 12/16 First class seats in it and the rest regular seats and I think Delta would go for it. MSP-ASPEN becomes an option again. Very senior XJ guys go back to their first love...

I believe there is more to this turboprop stuff than we know.