Pinnacle, Mesaba, Colgan SLI

[WMUSIGPI]

Yup, merging any of the 2 would be fairly easy but to throw the 3rd list into this mess makes it like a monkey F-ing a football... Funny to watch but terrible to try to actually participate in.

 

[MACH-TUCK]

Anyone hired at Colgan after Jan 18th 2007 should assume that they would have been put at the bottom of the combined Pinnacle and Colgan list, go DOH for the rest of the 9L and 9E guys. Then, with the XJ and 9E lists, do a combo of DOH and Relative.

 

[WayBack]

Colgan sure expects a lot out of this deal. We all had "expectations".

Ah yes, you bought into the "ALPA can bring happiness, rainbows and sunshine on a rainy day" sales pitch, didn't ya?

One thing to remember is that if this thing goes to an airbitrator the pilots have to foot the lawyer and arbitrator bills. ALPA will not do so to remove themselves from any legal liability resulting from people hacked off about how things went. I wonder how big that bill will be...

Isn't it amazing how little your ALPA dues cover?

I should think that with how Colgan has gotten so many improvements with this contract that they should not be looking to have a 1 year guy bump a 7 year guy at 9E or XJ.

Ok, first you're going to shaft the Colgan guys on the seniority list, then on pay? One or the other, pal.
Want a "fair" list? Then go back and tell PCL to have their accountant do a better job on the books, so Colgan pilots can get paid the same as Mesaba and PCL.
What ever happened to ALPA's "Solidarity in Brotherhood" mantra? I guess that only applies when it's not your seniority number at stake.

 

[xjgearbtch]

Ah yes, you bought into the "ALPA can bring happiness, rainbows and sunshine on a rainy day" sales pitch, didn't ya?

Isn't it amazing how little your ALPA dues cover?


Ok, first you're going to shaft the Colgan guys on the seniority list, then on pay? One or the other, pal.
Want a "fair" list? Then go back and tell PCL to have their accountant do a better job on the books, so Colgan pilots can get paid the same as Mesaba and PCL.
What ever happened to ALPA's "Solidarity in Brotherhood" mantra? I guess that only applies when it's not your seniority number at stake.

The majority of the money spent in this contract is on Colgan. Speak with you reps for more details. I'm getting a $0.40 raise, anyone at Colgan getting a $0.40 raise???? Nope, I better see something in return at the SLI.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

The majority of the money spent in this contract is on Colgan. Speak with you reps for more details. I'm getting a $0.40 raise, anyone at Colgan getting a $0.40 raise???? Nope, I better see something in return at the SLI.

$0.40, you are doing good, I get 0 raise and worse reserve rules... Plus I will be displaced out of my position and thanks to the integration will NEVER get a chance to get back on the plane, at least as captain. I am still waiting to see how this merger was at all good for us.

 

[Smarta$$]

Wayback... I wish that sausage in your mouth kept you from typing. Fak off.

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

$0.40, you are doing good, I get 0 raise and worse reserve rules... Plus I will be displaced out of my position and thanks to the integration will NEVER get a chance to get back on the plane, at least as captain. I am still waiting to see how this merger was at all good for us.

I also am not getting a raise but I don't understand the worse reserve rules. I went to the roadshow and 99% of that section sounded exactly the same as we have now (I'm XJ).

The new thing is Secondary RR and I am a bit leary but I wouldn't say worse. But I certainly don't understand so please explain.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Yes that is the one big thing worse from our side, there are a couple spots that are now worse for Pinnacle too. For example lets say they have 3 days of reserve, they get called for a 2 day trip that gets back early day 2, if they do not get anything added on then they are released from all duty the rest of that day and go back available to start their day 3 at the normal time. Now they lose that and take our lesser language that we stay contactable to the end of our original contact time or end of 14 hours from duty on. I am seeing several places where we didn't keep the best of each, such as medical and vacation slide. I am also very iffy on the changes to the displacement language among other things.

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

I also wish we had kept the Pinnacle Reserve language.

Displacement - haven't read it I will just take your word for it.

 

[WayBack]

Wayback... I wish that sausage in your mouth kept you from typing. Fak off.

Oh, you got me there! Total burn!

I wish your little after school tree house club, ALPA, would actually grow a spine.

 

[Ridgeback]

$0.40, you are doing good, I get 0 raise and worse reserve rules... Plus I will be displaced out of my position and thanks to the integration will NEVER get a chance to get back on the plane, at least as captain. I am still waiting to see how this merger was at all good for us.

What no fences?

 

[CptMurf]

What no fences?

I believe what he is saying, is that there is a chance he could be, or has been displaced before SLI. After SLI he is no longer 10-20 numbers from a CA slot, but 200-300 numbers. This is a risk at XJ, with every realignment/reduction prior to SLI. So, there might be fences, but they happened too late.

 

[beechjetdriver]

$0.40, you are doing good, I get 0 raise and worse reserve rules... Plus I will be displaced out of my position and thanks to the integration will NEVER get a chance to get back on the plane, at least as captain. I am still waiting to see how this merger was at all good for us.

This merger helps you because it gives you a chance to stay a captain, or re-upgrade in the near future. It may not be on the CRJ 900, but at least you might still hold captain. You were clinging to the bottom of the 900 anyways. Perhaps your quality of life will be better on a different aircraft. Without this merger, we park the saabs and you're an FO, period. This means your only chance to upgrade would be more aircraft or attrition, neither of which seem to be happening right now. At least now you may be able to displace to a 200/Saab/Q400 captain spot. Try to stay positive. It makes life a lot more enjoyable.

 

[Flyprdu]

I am still waiting to see how this merger was at all good for us.

Where do you possibly think you would be without the merger? Looking down the barrel of another massive fleet reduction.

Do not discount that.

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

Where do you possibly think you would be without the merger? Looking down the barrel of another massive fleet reduction.

Do not discount that.

Maybe you are the ones who are going to have a culture shock. I heard most of the contract is Mesaba Language. It will be Mesaba style staffing (per Delta), Safety Culture (no fatal accidents in 69 years), and it goes on.

You can keep TRYING to convince us that you're our saving grace and yes we may have gone to 600 pilots...for a while. But with both Delta and Continental being dissatisfied I wonder how long it would have been before Mesaba would have gotten 129 CRJ200's? It would have been a cluster for a while but we would have gotten back up to 98% on time performance.

Now I know it's going to take everyone to make this work and this new contract isn't perfect. Mesaba isn't saving 9E or 9L BUT you got to get off your high horse about this what would have happened stuff. We wouldn't have been at 600 pilots for long.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Where do you possibly think you would be without the merger? Looking down the barrel of another massive fleet reduction.

Do not discount that.

Where? Without the merger I would be back in the right seat for a little while. But by the end of the grandfathered flow ups to Delta I would be back in the left seat of the 900. Now I will never see the 900, I am now hoping that SLI happens BEFORE my displacement so I have a shot at 200 CA, The props are a dead issue because I will not lock myself into a horrific commuting situation that any of their current bases (outside the traditional Mesaba Saab bases) would cause me even to save a captain seat. The minimal pay boost isn't worth the lost time at home and cost of commuting.
If SLI happens after my downgrade to fo I may have to wait quite a while for a vacancy to get back to the left seat and when I do it would at best be to a 200 (lower pay and still bordering reserve likely) So no I don't see this merger as "saving me" especially with this TA basically extending our CONCESSIONARY contract 5 more years with almost no gains and several potential losses.

 

[Yodafly]

I for one am getting tired of the unknown and just want it all to be done so we can move on

 

[beechjetdriver]

Where? Without the merger I would be back in the right seat for a little while. But by the end of the grandfathered flow ups to Delta I would be back in the left seat of the 900. Now I will never see the 900, I am now hoping that SLI happens BEFORE my displacement so I have a shot at 200 CA, The props are a dead issue because I will not lock myself into a horrific commuting situation that any of their current bases (outside the traditional Mesaba Saab bases) would cause me even to save a captain seat. The minimal pay boost isn't worth the lost time at home and cost of commuting.
If SLI happens after my downgrade to fo I may have to wait quite a while for a vacancy to get back to the left seat and when I do it would at best be to a 200 (lower pay and still bordering reserve likely) So no I don't see this merger as "saving me" especially with this TA basically extending our CONCESSIONARY contract 5 more years with almost no gains and several potential losses.

You need to redo your math. Without this merger XJ has 41 CRJ 900's and 19 CRJ 200's (total 60 airframes after all saabs parked). At 10 pilots/plane thats 600 total pilots. Even if all grandfathered 108 flows ups were senior to you, and they all took the flow, that puts you around number 360 out of 600. Not even halfway up the list. That hardly puts you back in the left seat of the CRJ 900. If you're lucky, it might put you commuting to MSP as a reserve 200 captain, but most likely you'd be a senior FO. With this merger you might be stuck on reserve as a captain, but you could possibly stay in DTW (assuming you want to). Just playing devil's advocate. Regarding the TA, keep in mind that we would still be under the bankruptcy agreement and pay until Dec 1 2011, with only a 1.5% pay increase on every 12/1 until a new agreement is negotiated (who knows how long that would take). At least with this TA we get a 3% raise on 12/1/2011, and 12/1/2012, then 2% for the next 3 yrs. That puts pay much farther ahead of where we would have been. I'll agree that there are a few givebacks regarding work rules, but for the most part they are better rules, and put more money in our pockets. If you haven't already, go to the road show. The TA doesn't seem like a concessionary agreement after hearing all the details. In my opinion, this merger still gives you more/better options than you had before.

 

[CptMurf]

You need to redo your math. Without this merger XJ has 41 CRJ 900's and 19 CRJ 200's (total 60 airframes after all saabs parked). At 10 pilots/plane thats 600 total pilots. Even if all grandfathered 108 flows ups were senior to you, and they all took the flow, that puts you around number 360 out of 600. Not even halfway up the list. That hardly puts you back in the left seat of the CRJ 900. If you're lucky, it might put you commuting to MSP as a reserve 200 captain, but most likely you'd be a senior FO. With this merger you might be stuck on reserve as a captain, but you could possibly stay in DTW (assuming you want to). Just playing devil's advocate. Regarding the TA, keep in mind that we would still be under the bankruptcy agreement and pay until Dec 1 2011, with only a 1.5% pay increase on every 12/1 until a new agreement is negotiated (who knows how long that would take). At least with this TA we get a 3% raise on 12/1/2011, and 12/1/2012, then 2% for the next 3 yrs. That puts pay much farther ahead of where we would have been. I'll agree that there are a few givebacks regarding work rules, but for the most part they are better rules, and put more money in our pockets. If you haven't already, go to the road show. The TA doesn't seem like a concessionary agreement after hearing all the details. In my opinion, this merger still gives you more/better options than you had before.

We lost the flow-up because of the buy out. The spots were unlimited. The 108 was a negotiated number after the purchase.

The 1.5% raises were contractual. There was still a 3% longevity raise built in. He would be recording 4.5% increases every year.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

We lost the flow-up because of the buy out. The spots were unlimited. The 108 was a negotiated number after the purchase.

The 1.5% raises were contractual. There was still a 3% longevity raise built in. He would be recording 4.5% increases every year.

Somebody gets it.
And I did look at the numbers and believe it or not, yes I would likely be a bottom D9C with just the jets once the flows (even if it were just the 108) went. There are more captains staffed than fo's, plus you are forgetting how many mgmt and instructors that are actually phantoms currently senior to me that don't take up line spots.