Pinnacle, Mesaba, Colgan SLI

[Carl_Spackler]

Fine, I'm for DOH as well as long as I get to use my DOH from the first airline I worked for.

Would you still be for DOH, if you were merging with Comair? I understand that you want DOH because it would be a great benefit to you, but going from 25% to 12% would be considered a windfall.

 

[Flyprdu]

Relative doesn't degrade anyones schedule. Not even yours.

But it sure puts the brakes on any chance of advancement.

 

[Flyprdu]

Until the first vacancy... Then it's a slow death.

Exactly. Seniority is everything. Those who are selling relative as a "won't change anything" scenario are either blind or willfully deceptive.

I'm trying to figure out which is worse.

 

[CptMurf]

The "winners" of the SLI should be from the acquiring carrier, Pinnacle. That would mean a relative seniority integration with Mesaba and then staple Colgan. Thats how I would do it anyway.

Except XJ was bought by PNCL Holdings. This merger is a just that. Equal for both parties.

 

[CptMurf]

Fine, I'm for DOH as well as long as I get to use my DOH from the first airline I worked for.

Would you still be for DOH, if you were merging with Comair? I understand that you want DOH because it would be a great benefit to you, but going from 25% to 12% would be considered a windfall.

Absolutely I would merger DOH with Comair if that was the case. Quite frankly, ALPA should have created a single seniority list when the first ALPA carrier failed/merged. Then we would not have been forced to deal with this at USAir/Delta/TWA/ATA/Etc/Etc.

Yet you believe going from 10% of a 200 pilot company to 10% of a 5000 pilot company is not a windfall???(numbers exaggerated)

 

[CptMurf]

If I were a negotiator....

I would research when each of us entered this sector of the industry (for protecting previous furloughed types and the non union ie. SkyWest types) and create a DOH list from those dates. That would be the starting point.

No one would be allowed to lose aircraft or seat. But as vacancies open, someone could bid into a position above them.

Then I would the break the list into 6 parts. CA and FO for the 3 companies. I would identify 3 individuals from each group representing 25%/50%/75% and track how much the DOH list moves them. I would identify any specific areas that would affect them and negotiate any type of kicker (or loss) to protect "Windfalls" specific to the individuals. That gives you 9 resetting points to manage these.

Copied this from page 5 for you Carl. Notice the reference to research entrance dates to the 121 world.

And as a further note.... My math was off. 6 divisions with 3 reps from each group would be 18 resetting points to manage windfalls (not 9).

 

[Ridgeback]

The idea is that if everyone stays in their seat, base and holds the same schedule there is no loss to anyone. No one gains and no one loses QOL.

WRONG WRON WRONG!

Example your #20 in you base, position, ect...What happens when a junior guys moves on and creates a vacancy...someone senior to you moves in that was junior to you DOH now your #21

 

[CptMurf]

WRONG WRON WRONG!

Example your #20 in you base, position, ect...What happens when a junior guys moves on and creates a vacancy...someone senior to you moves in that was junior to you DOH now your #21

I agree. And the first step of the "Asset Transfer" will be a vacancy... You'll never see #20.

 

[suupah]

How did Delta/NorthWest work it out in such a way that everyone was happy, or at the very least not riotous?

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

WRONG WRON WRONG!

Example your #20 in you base, position, ect...What happens when a junior guys moves on and creates a vacancy...someone senior to you moves in that was junior to you DOH now your #21

I hate to say this but you don't need a merger to have this kind of situation. Some how I managed to get the 200 at XJ and while I am grateful, 95% of the vacancy's have gone over me.

Been on the plane 3 years. I've had 3 lines and I am embarrassed to tell you how much PIC I've gotten since upgrading. I am hoping to be able to get a few more days off a month and and get more flying. Maybe even a regular line.

 

[CptMurf]

I hate to say this but you don't need a merger to have this kind of situation. Some how I managed to get the 200 at XJ and while I am grateful, 95% of the vacancy's have gone over me.

Been on the plane 3 years. I've had 3 lines and I am embarrassed to tell you how much PIC I've gotten since upgrading. I am hoping to be able to get a few more days off a month and and get more flying. Maybe even a regular line.

Difference is, you had a choice to take that upgrade when you did. And knew the consequences.

 

[CptMurf]

How did Delta/NorthWest work it out in such a way that everyone was happy, or at the very least not riotous?

Their seniority lists were much more in line with each other. ie. Both companies were hiring (not hiring) at the same time. The biggest difference to overcome in their lists was that DAL offered an early out and NWA did not, which left NWA top heavy in seniority. They also had similar fleets, but with a more diverse fleet makeup than our 4 types. They went relative with fences. Biggest fences on the largest aircraft 777/747.

Unfortunately, we are more like USAir/AmericaWest when it comes to our seniority lists. Relative seniority would work much better if it were just XJ/9E merging, but when you add in 9L it gets complicated.

 

[suupah]

Fine, I'm for DOH as well as long as I get to use my DOH from the first airline I worked for.

Would you still be for DOH, if you were merging with Comair? I understand that you want DOH because it would be a great benefit to you, but going from 25% to 12% would be considered a windfall.

True, didn't even consider the other scenario.

 

[suupah]

Unfortunately, we are more like USAir/AmericaWest when it comes to our seniority lists. Relative seniority would work much better if it were just XJ/9E merging, but when you add in 9L it gets complicated.

That is what should happen then. You guys merge, and we'll stay on our own.

Problem with comparing this to Usairways is the Arbitrator Nikolay disagrees with you. he seemed to think a mostly relative solution was the fairest way to go with the us east/west scenario.

I see the points of all sides here. There is no way that feels right to everyone. I feel that if I ended up a 55%, that i have nothing to gain in this merger and would rather stay separate. You feel that if you are usurped in bidding by a 6 year guy, you are getting royally screwed (i can easily see how you could feel that way). We can all agree our merger committee's have a tough job to do and no matter what they decide the top ten guys will probably be happy and with the rest of us, its a crap shoot at this point.

We have some really sharp, level headed guys on our merger committee, i am sure you guys do as well. We just have to leave it up to them.

 

[Ridgeback]

I hate to say this but you don't need a merger to have this kind of situation. Some how I managed to get the 200 at XJ and while I am grateful, 95% of the vacancy's have gone over me.

Been on the plane 3 years. I've had 3 lines and I am embarrassed to tell you how much PIC I've gotten since upgrading. I am hoping to be able to get a few more days off a month and and get more flying. Maybe even a regular line.

Your a perfect example...With realative you'll vever get past that 95%. At xj everytime 1 person left you would move up one spot...now it takes three people to leave to move up that same 1 spot, difference is 2 out of the 3 are junior to you on DOH. Also look at it this way, when the 108 flows leave, your only going to move up 1/3 of those..."realativly" speaking...

DOH with fences is by far the only fair thing

 

[CptMurf]

That is what should happen then. You guys merge, and we'll stay on our own.

Problem with comparing this to Usairways is the Arbitrator Nikolay disagrees with you. he seemed to think a mostly relative solution was the fairest way to go with the us east/west scenario.

I see the points of all sides here. There is no way that feels right to everyone. I feel that if I ended up a 55%, that i have nothing to gain in this merger and would rather stay separate. You feel that if you are usurped in bidding by a 6 year guy, you are getting royally screwed (i can easily see how you could feel that way). We can all agree our merger committee's have a tough job to do and no matter what they decide the top ten guys will probably be happy and with the rest of us, its a crap shoot at this point.

We have some really sharp, level headed guys on our merger committee, i am sure you guys do as well. We just have to leave it up to them.

I completely agree. And I can see both sides to this too. At the end of the day though, this lists WILL merge and there will be a lot of upset people, no matter what.

 

[mesaba13]

The difference with the NWA/DELTA deal is that with relative seniority you may have only lost around 2-years versus date of hire. Example: A 1978 hire at delta went ahead of a 1976 NWA hire. The hard part for me is that a 5 year guy at 9E is similiar relative seniority but has half the years I have.

I would be okay with a 8-9 year guy going ahead of me but a 5 year guy?

 

[suupah]

The difference with the NWA/DELTA deal is that with relative seniority you may have only lost around 2-years versus date of hire. Example: A 1978 hire at delta went ahead of a 1976 NWA hire. The hard part for me is that a 5 year guy at 9E is similiar relative seniority but has half the years I have.

I would be okay with a 8-9 year guy going ahead of me but a 5 year guy?

holy mother of @#%#$ could you imagine if comair merged with anyone? geezus. The seniority of the pilot groups should be a huge factor in analyzing the mergability (not a real word, i know) of two companies.

 

[xjhawk]

Your current seniority is based on your hire date at your originating airline. Your hire date is irrelevant to me. I don't work at your airline. In fact, you'll be coming to work at my airline.[/QUOTE

I believe it will be mine too since it was yours and my parent company who bought us (Mesaba). Not, get this through your head, your airline who bought mesaba. So in this real world in which we live you must care how my date of hire (we are all ALPA are we not?) is.

To answer that Colgan guys question now, about the 03 hires. I am an 03 hire and I am 403 on the list (36%). I would be more senior ( by a few numbers) on the 900 but sit on reserve on the 200.

 

[xjhawk]

The same thing can be said about a merger with Horizon. The difference with Horizon is that they all live out in the west so there would be no worries about using DOH or relative. They are most likely not coming this way. I am also happy we have good people who can think this through to come up with a solution. I think its ironic that the most vocal people for a certain viewpoint can say what they are saying given that their views exclude their own people. Take for instance the senior 9E guys want relative when DOH would greatly help the bottom half of their list. The reverse can be said for the MEsaba list. I was hired at Mesaba (03) before Pinnacle startd their first real big hiring in 04 and would be okay with either way (relative or DOH) but would be better off with DOH but understand fences need to be in place to protect the colgan pilots. I am no expert in fences (though I plan on building one)but they should protect the schedules and total QOL