Pinnacle, Mesaba, Colgan SLI

[WMUSIGPI]

Yup, merging any of the 2 would be fairly easy but to throw the 3rd list into this mess makes it like a monkey F-ing a football... Funny to watch but terrible to try to actually participate in.

 

[MACH-TUCK]

Anyone hired at Colgan after Jan 18th 2007 should assume that they would have been put at the bottom of the combined Pinnacle and Colgan list, go DOH for the rest of the 9L and 9E guys. Then, with the XJ and 9E lists, do a combo of DOH and Relative.

 

[WayBack]

Colgan sure expects a lot out of this deal. We all had "expectations".

Ah yes, you bought into the "ALPA can bring happiness, rainbows and sunshine on a rainy day" sales pitch, didn't ya?

One thing to remember is that if this thing goes to an airbitrator the pilots have to foot the lawyer and arbitrator bills. ALPA will not do so to remove themselves from any legal liability resulting from people hacked off about how things went. I wonder how big that bill will be...

Isn't it amazing how little your ALPA dues cover?

I should think that with how Colgan has gotten so many improvements with this contract that they should not be looking to have a 1 year guy bump a 7 year guy at 9E or XJ.

Ok, first you're going to shaft the Colgan guys on the seniority list, then on pay? One or the other, pal.
Want a "fair" list? Then go back and tell PCL to have their accountant do a better job on the books, so Colgan pilots can get paid the same as Mesaba and PCL.
What ever happened to ALPA's "Solidarity in Brotherhood" mantra? I guess that only applies when it's not your seniority number at stake.

 

[xjgearbtch]

Ah yes, you bought into the "ALPA can bring happiness, rainbows and sunshine on a rainy day" sales pitch, didn't ya?

Isn't it amazing how little your ALPA dues cover?


Ok, first you're going to shaft the Colgan guys on the seniority list, then on pay? One or the other, pal.
Want a "fair" list? Then go back and tell PCL to have their accountant do a better job on the books, so Colgan pilots can get paid the same as Mesaba and PCL.
What ever happened to ALPA's "Solidarity in Brotherhood" mantra? I guess that only applies when it's not your seniority number at stake.

The majority of the money spent in this contract is on Colgan. Speak with you reps for more details. I'm getting a $0.40 raise, anyone at Colgan getting a $0.40 raise???? Nope, I better see something in return at the SLI.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

The majority of the money spent in this contract is on Colgan. Speak with you reps for more details. I'm getting a $0.40 raise, anyone at Colgan getting a $0.40 raise???? Nope, I better see something in return at the SLI.

$0.40, you are doing good, I get 0 raise and worse reserve rules... Plus I will be displaced out of my position and thanks to the integration will NEVER get a chance to get back on the plane, at least as captain. I am still waiting to see how this merger was at all good for us.

 

[Smarta$$]

Wayback... I wish that sausage in your mouth kept you from typing. Fak off.

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

$0.40, you are doing good, I get 0 raise and worse reserve rules... Plus I will be displaced out of my position and thanks to the integration will NEVER get a chance to get back on the plane, at least as captain. I am still waiting to see how this merger was at all good for us.

I also am not getting a raise but I don't understand the worse reserve rules. I went to the roadshow and 99% of that section sounded exactly the same as we have now (I'm XJ).

The new thing is Secondary RR and I am a bit leary but I wouldn't say worse. But I certainly don't understand so please explain.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Yes that is the one big thing worse from our side, there are a couple spots that are now worse for Pinnacle too. For example lets say they have 3 days of reserve, they get called for a 2 day trip that gets back early day 2, if they do not get anything added on then they are released from all duty the rest of that day and go back available to start their day 3 at the normal time. Now they lose that and take our lesser language that we stay contactable to the end of our original contact time or end of 14 hours from duty on. I am seeing several places where we didn't keep the best of each, such as medical and vacation slide. I am also very iffy on the changes to the displacement language among other things.

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

I also wish we had kept the Pinnacle Reserve language.

Displacement - haven't read it I will just take your word for it.

 

[WayBack]

Wayback... I wish that sausage in your mouth kept you from typing. Fak off.

Oh, you got me there! Total burn!

I wish your little after school tree house club, ALPA, would actually grow a spine.

 

[Ridgeback]

$0.40, you are doing good, I get 0 raise and worse reserve rules... Plus I will be displaced out of my position and thanks to the integration will NEVER get a chance to get back on the plane, at least as captain. I am still waiting to see how this merger was at all good for us.

What no fences?

 

[CptMurf]

What no fences?

I believe what he is saying, is that there is a chance he could be, or has been displaced before SLI. After SLI he is no longer 10-20 numbers from a CA slot, but 200-300 numbers. This is a risk at XJ, with every realignment/reduction prior to SLI. So, there might be fences, but they happened too late.

 

[beechjetdriver]

$0.40, you are doing good, I get 0 raise and worse reserve rules... Plus I will be displaced out of my position and thanks to the integration will NEVER get a chance to get back on the plane, at least as captain. I am still waiting to see how this merger was at all good for us.

This merger helps you because it gives you a chance to stay a captain, or re-upgrade in the near future. It may not be on the CRJ 900, but at least you might still hold captain. You were clinging to the bottom of the 900 anyways. Perhaps your quality of life will be better on a different aircraft. Without this merger, we park the saabs and you're an FO, period. This means your only chance to upgrade would be more aircraft or attrition, neither of which seem to be happening right now. At least now you may be able to displace to a 200/Saab/Q400 captain spot. Try to stay positive. It makes life a lot more enjoyable.

 

[Flyprdu]

I am still waiting to see how this merger was at all good for us.

Where do you possibly think you would be without the merger? Looking down the barrel of another massive fleet reduction.

Do not discount that.

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

Where do you possibly think you would be without the merger? Looking down the barrel of another massive fleet reduction.

Do not discount that.

Maybe you are the ones who are going to have a culture shock. I heard most of the contract is Mesaba Language. It will be Mesaba style staffing (per Delta), Safety Culture (no fatal accidents in 69 years), and it goes on.

You can keep TRYING to convince us that you're our saving grace and yes we may have gone to 600 pilots...for a while. But with both Delta and Continental being dissatisfied I wonder how long it would have been before Mesaba would have gotten 129 CRJ200's? It would have been a cluster for a while but we would have gotten back up to 98% on time performance.

Now I know it's going to take everyone to make this work and this new contract isn't perfect. Mesaba isn't saving 9E or 9L BUT you got to get off your high horse about this what would have happened stuff. We wouldn't have been at 600 pilots for long.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Where do you possibly think you would be without the merger? Looking down the barrel of another massive fleet reduction.

Do not discount that.

Where? Without the merger I would be back in the right seat for a little while. But by the end of the grandfathered flow ups to Delta I would be back in the left seat of the 900. Now I will never see the 900, I am now hoping that SLI happens BEFORE my displacement so I have a shot at 200 CA, The props are a dead issue because I will not lock myself into a horrific commuting situation that any of their current bases (outside the traditional Mesaba Saab bases) would cause me even to save a captain seat. The minimal pay boost isn't worth the lost time at home and cost of commuting.
If SLI happens after my downgrade to fo I may have to wait quite a while for a vacancy to get back to the left seat and when I do it would at best be to a 200 (lower pay and still bordering reserve likely) So no I don't see this merger as "saving me" especially with this TA basically extending our CONCESSIONARY contract 5 more years with almost no gains and several potential losses.

 

[Yodafly]

I for one am getting tired of the unknown and just want it all to be done so we can move on

 

[beechjetdriver]

Where? Without the merger I would be back in the right seat for a little while. But by the end of the grandfathered flow ups to Delta I would be back in the left seat of the 900. Now I will never see the 900, I am now hoping that SLI happens BEFORE my displacement so I have a shot at 200 CA, The props are a dead issue because I will not lock myself into a horrific commuting situation that any of their current bases (outside the traditional Mesaba Saab bases) would cause me even to save a captain seat. The minimal pay boost isn't worth the lost time at home and cost of commuting.
If SLI happens after my downgrade to fo I may have to wait quite a while for a vacancy to get back to the left seat and when I do it would at best be to a 200 (lower pay and still bordering reserve likely) So no I don't see this merger as "saving me" especially with this TA basically extending our CONCESSIONARY contract 5 more years with almost no gains and several potential losses.

You need to redo your math. Without this merger XJ has 41 CRJ 900's and 19 CRJ 200's (total 60 airframes after all saabs parked). At 10 pilots/plane thats 600 total pilots. Even if all grandfathered 108 flows ups were senior to you, and they all took the flow, that puts you around number 360 out of 600. Not even halfway up the list. That hardly puts you back in the left seat of the CRJ 900. If you're lucky, it might put you commuting to MSP as a reserve 200 captain, but most likely you'd be a senior FO. With this merger you might be stuck on reserve as a captain, but you could possibly stay in DTW (assuming you want to). Just playing devil's advocate. Regarding the TA, keep in mind that we would still be under the bankruptcy agreement and pay until Dec 1 2011, with only a 1.5% pay increase on every 12/1 until a new agreement is negotiated (who knows how long that would take). At least with this TA we get a 3% raise on 12/1/2011, and 12/1/2012, then 2% for the next 3 yrs. That puts pay much farther ahead of where we would have been. I'll agree that there are a few givebacks regarding work rules, but for the most part they are better rules, and put more money in our pockets. If you haven't already, go to the road show. The TA doesn't seem like a concessionary agreement after hearing all the details. In my opinion, this merger still gives you more/better options than you had before.

 

[CptMurf]

You need to redo your math. Without this merger XJ has 41 CRJ 900's and 19 CRJ 200's (total 60 airframes after all saabs parked). At 10 pilots/plane thats 600 total pilots. Even if all grandfathered 108 flows ups were senior to you, and they all took the flow, that puts you around number 360 out of 600. Not even halfway up the list. That hardly puts you back in the left seat of the CRJ 900. If you're lucky, it might put you commuting to MSP as a reserve 200 captain, but most likely you'd be a senior FO. With this merger you might be stuck on reserve as a captain, but you could possibly stay in DTW (assuming you want to). Just playing devil's advocate. Regarding the TA, keep in mind that we would still be under the bankruptcy agreement and pay until Dec 1 2011, with only a 1.5% pay increase on every 12/1 until a new agreement is negotiated (who knows how long that would take). At least with this TA we get a 3% raise on 12/1/2011, and 12/1/2012, then 2% for the next 3 yrs. That puts pay much farther ahead of where we would have been. I'll agree that there are a few givebacks regarding work rules, but for the most part they are better rules, and put more money in our pockets. If you haven't already, go to the road show. The TA doesn't seem like a concessionary agreement after hearing all the details. In my opinion, this merger still gives you more/better options than you had before.

We lost the flow-up because of the buy out. The spots were unlimited. The 108 was a negotiated number after the purchase.

The 1.5% raises were contractual. There was still a 3% longevity raise built in. He would be recording 4.5% increases every year.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

We lost the flow-up because of the buy out. The spots were unlimited. The 108 was a negotiated number after the purchase.

The 1.5% raises were contractual. There was still a 3% longevity raise built in. He would be recording 4.5% increases every year.

Somebody gets it.
And I did look at the numbers and believe it or not, yes I would likely be a bottom D9C with just the jets once the flows (even if it were just the 108) went. There are more captains staffed than fo's, plus you are forgetting how many mgmt and instructors that are actually phantoms currently senior to me that don't take up line spots.

 

[Carl_Spackler]

Are there 108 guys that are going to flow or are just the first 108 on the xj seniority list that are offered the flow?

 

[CptMurf]

DAL wanted it to be a set group of individuals. The negotiated terms allowed for 1 years worth of flows, which was 108. The first 124 on our list had already had the chance to flow. So the next 108 were allowed to flow. This allowed up to number 233 on the seniority list. Only these individuals could go, no replacements. In other words, if 232 decides not to flow, 234 is not allowed to take his place.


Sucks to be 250ish.

 

[Ridgeback]

If you haven't already, go to the road show. The TA doesn't seem like a concessionary agreement after hearing all the details. In my opinion, this merger still gives you more/better options than you had before.

Road shows are like time share presentations...you go in knowing you don't want to buy one...but after hearing the relentless pressure of how much you need it you walk out buying it hook line and sinker

This weeks Mesaba union Rep had a disturbing sales pitch during Reccurrent GS. Told the younger guys this contract was a good deal because without the union was worried about furloughs down to 600. And that somehow that justifies why mesaba guys get didn't get that many improvements in the contract. THATS NOT THE PURPOSE OF A CONTRACT!!! It's the companys job to get flying to keep our pilots employed...not the unions.

 

[Smarta$$]

Road shows are like time share presentations...you go in knowing you don't want to buy one...but after hearing the relentless pressure of how much you need it you walk out buying it hook line and sinker

This weeks Mesaba union Rep had a disturbing sales pitch during Reccurrent GS. Told the younger guys this contract was a good deal because without the union was worried about furloughs down to 600. And that somehow that justifies why mesaba guys get didn't get that many improvements in the contract. THATS NOT THE PURPOSE OF A CONTRACT!!! It's the companys job to get flying to keep our pilots employed...not the unions.

Says the guy that isn't on the chopping block. I bet you think the 401k plan is great! too.

 

[beechjetdriver]

We lost the flow-up because of the buy out. The spots were unlimited. The 108 was a negotiated number after the purchase.

The 1.5% raises were contractual. There was still a 3% longevity raise built in. He would be recording 4.5% increases every year.

His initial complaint was "how is the merger good for me?", not "how is the sale of XJ good for me?" You missed the point of what we were discussing. I agree that the sale of XJ is what terminated the flow, however, selling XJ and merging XJ are two completely different things. Delta was going to sell XJ regardless (and not necessarily to PNCL corp) , therefore, the flow was going away. It was PNCL corp management's decision to merge all 3 airlines. They could have left us as 3 stand alone carriers. The merge had nothing to do with losing the flow, the sale had everything to do with it. I still think he's going to be better off post merger, than pre merger. Only time will tell.

Regarding the TA payrates, there is still about a 3% longevity raise/year built into the TA charts too, just like the bankruptcy agreement. Then you add your cost of living increases/year. So if you want to look at it that way, Years 1 and 2 he'd get 6% raises, then 5% for the next 3 years instead of the 4.5%/year you talked about. Seems like he's still coming out ahead under the new TA.

Either way it doesn't matter. The merger is happening weather we like it or not. There's no sense complaining about it since it does no good. Life isn't always full of choices that benefit us. The sooner some of us on this message board realize this, and stop having the "it's all about me attitude", the better off all of us are. Enjoy life, it's short.

 

[Smarta$$]

His initial complaint was "how is the merger good for me?", not "how is the sale of XJ good for me?" You missed the point of what we were discussing. I agree that the sale of XJ is what terminated the flow, however, selling XJ and merging XJ are two completely different things. Delta was going to sell XJ regardless (and not necessarily to PNCL corp) , therefore, the flow was going away. It was PNCL corp management's decision to merge all 3 airlines. They could have left us as 3 stand alone carriers. The merge had nothing to do with losing the flow, the sale had everything to do with it. I still think he's going to be better off post merger, than pre merger. Only time will tell.

Regarding the TA payrates, there is still about a 3% longevity raise/year built into the TA charts too, just like the bankruptcy agreement. Then you add your cost of living increases/year. So if you want to look at it that way, Years 1 and 2 he'd get 6% raises, then 5% for the next 3 years instead of the 4.5%/year you talked about. Seems like he's still coming out ahead under the new TA.

Either way it doesn't matter. The merger is happening weather we like it or not. There's no sense complaining about it since it does no good. Life isn't always full of choices that benefit us. The sooner some of us on this message board realize this, and stop having the "it's all about me attitude", the better off all of us are. Enjoy life, it's short.

Very well said, and I believe a more fair and accurate assessment of the situation.

 

[CptMurf]

It was PNCL corp management's decision to merge all 3 airlines. They could have left us as 3 stand alone carriers.

Instead they leave us as 2 stand alone carriers. It was XJs fragmentation policy that forced the JCBA and SLI, without it, this "asset transfer" would be the ugliest thing ever seen in aviation, with 1/3 of the workforce walking immediately, a defined "struck work" the other 2/3 should not be doing, and idle aircraft stuck between 3 airlines and 2 carriers. It would have also bankrupt PNCL holdings. In fact it still could happen if the JCBA is voted down. Which is why Ridgebacks ALPA rep stated what he did in the RGS.

The path we are on, is the best outcome for ALL three of our carriers. The TA, although not perfect by any means is our best chance at survival in this merger/aqusition/asset transfer. If it is voted down, there is NO obligation to merge the contracts or lists. 9L will take on XJs contract and would be merged by an SLI negotiated between the two. The jets would be transferred to 9E with no obligation to any transferring pilots other than "offer employment." Since no XJ guys in their right mind would go, esp. under the current 9E contract, (and they cannot be forced to go) 9E would crumble under training costs, increase accidents (associated to ALL rapid expansions), and increased unemployment costs (at XJ). 9E would continue to work under contract '99, until forced to take concessions under BK.

We are all in this together, none better than the other. Our symbiotic relationship depends on working through the JCBA and SLI methodically, and as fairly as possible. We have a descent TA, not great, not industry leading, but definately a good starting point to combine this company into a great regional airline (if there is such a thing). The negotiation timeline was fast, but needed to be. After talking to my negotiator friends, we achieved EVERYTHING we were going to get out of mgmt. In the end they were arguing over reseting longevity dates for pay for the 9E guys to Day 1 of training. (An item that was only listed for 1 million or so) Yet there was absolutely no way mgmt. would even move that small amount (relative) to finish the TA. (ie. You know you got the best deal on a car if you are haggling over the last $100 dollars)

I, for one, do not want to be the biggest, or best paid in the industry. Because when you are, there is only ONE way to go (ala Comair '00). I want to be in the upper third. Stable....Competative....Happy.

If you think voting no will lead to a better contract, then vote no. But understand the risks. Vote your conscience, vote you heart, but vote informed also. The airplanes will transfer no matter what in May. There is a risk to us all in that.

 

[sinkrate]

Instead they leave us as 2 stand alone carriers. It was XJs fragmentation policy that forced the JCBA and SLI, without it, this "asset transfer" would be the ugliest thing ever seen in aviation, with 1/3 of the workforce walking immediately, a defined "struck work" the other 2/3 should not be doing, and idle aircraft stuck between 3 airlines and 2 carriers. It would have also bankrupt PNCL holdings. In fact it still could happen if the JCBA is voted down. Which is why Ridgebacks ALPA rep stated what he did in the RGS.

The path we are on, is the best outcome for ALL three of our carriers. The TA, although not perfect by any means is our best chance at survival in this merger/aqusition/asset transfer. If it is voted down, there is NO obligation to merge the contracts or lists. 9L will take on XJs contract and would be merged by an SLI negotiated between the two. The jets would be transferred to 9E with no obligation to any transferring pilots other than "offer employment." Since no XJ guys in their right mind would go, esp. under the current 9E contract, (and they cannot be forced to go) 9E would crumble under training costs, increase accidents (associated to ALL rapid expansions), and increased unemployment costs (at XJ). 9E would continue to work under contract '99, until forced to take concessions under BK.

We are all in this together, none better than the other. Our symbiotic relationship depends on working through the JCBA and SLI methodically, and as fairly as possible. We have a descent TA, not great, not industry leading, but definately a good starting point to combine this company into a great regional airline (if there is such a thing). The negotiation timeline was fast, but needed to be. After talking to my negotiator friends, we achieved EVERYTHING we were going to get out of mgmt. In the end they were arguing over reseting longevity dates for pay for the 9E guys to Day 1 of training. (An item that was only listed for 1 million or so) Yet there was absolutely no way mgmt. would even move that small amount (relative) to finish the TA. (ie. You know you got the best deal on a car if you are haggling over the last $100 dollars)

I, for one, do not want to be the biggest, or best paid in the industry. Because when you are, there is only ONE way to go (ala Comair '00). I want to be in the upper third. Stable....Competative....Happy.

If you think voting no will lead to a better contract, then vote no. But understand the risks. Vote your conscience, vote you heart, but vote informed also. The airplanes will transfer no matter what in May. There is a risk to us all in that.

Keep in mind all PCL pilots are giving up their ability to decline involuntary assignements. This JCBA pays a lot for them but most PCL pilots are more about days off - which we are giving up some of those too. And a good number of pilots are going to see their take home pay after medical premiums/deductibles decrease. Lets see, less money, fewer days off and they can't tell them 'no thanks, I'm going home' anymore.

The JNC is claiming junior assignments will be very expensive. They will be. The problem is the pay over guarentee provisions for reserves, among other provisions, makes it even more expensive to overstaff or correctly staff the airline. Say good bye to your days off. The only good thing that I see in this Agreement is it makes junior manning truly junior, instead of the senior manning PCL has currently.

The price some PCL pilots are being asked to pay for the job security of this merger is leaving a very bitter taste in their mouths. So much for the 'No pilot left behind' battle cry.

 

[beechjetdriver]

Instead they leave us as 2 stand alone carriers. It was XJs fragmentation policy that forced the JCBA and SLI, without it, this "asset transfer" would be the ugliest thing ever seen in aviation, with 1/3 of the workforce walking immediately, a defined "struck work" the other 2/3 should not be doing, and idle aircraft stuck between 3 airlines and 2 carriers. It would have also bankrupt PNCL holdings. In fact it still could happen if the JCBA is voted down. Which is why Ridgebacks ALPA rep stated what he did in the RGS.

The path we are on, is the best outcome for ALL three of our carriers. The TA, although not perfect by any means is our best chance at survival in this merger/aqusition/asset transfer. If it is voted down, there is NO obligation to merge the contracts or lists. 9L will take on XJs contract and would be merged by an SLI negotiated between the two. The jets would be transferred to 9E with no obligation to any transferring pilots other than "offer employment." Since no XJ guys in their right mind would go, esp. under the current 9E contract, (and they cannot be forced to go) 9E would crumble under training costs, increase accidents (associated to ALL rapid expansions), and increased unemployment costs (at XJ). 9E would continue to work under contract '99, until forced to take concessions under BK.

We are all in this together, none better than the other. Our symbiotic relationship depends on working through the JCBA and SLI methodically, and as fairly as possible. We have a descent TA, not great, not industry leading, but definately a good starting point to combine this company into a great regional airline (if there is such a thing). The negotiation timeline was fast, but needed to be. After talking to my negotiator friends, we achieved EVERYTHING we were going to get out of mgmt. In the end they were arguing over reseting longevity dates for pay for the 9E guys to Day 1 of training. (An item that was only listed for 1 million or so) Yet there was absolutely no way mgmt. would even move that small amount (relative) to finish the TA. (ie. You know you got the best deal on a car if you are haggling over the last $100 dollars)

I, for one, do not want to be the biggest, or best paid in the industry. Because when you are, there is only ONE way to go (ala Comair '00). I want to be in the upper third. Stable....Competative....Happy.

If you think voting no will lead to a better contract, then vote no. But understand the risks. Vote your conscience, vote you heart, but vote informed also. The airplanes will transfer no matter what in May. There is a risk to us all in that.

Just to clarify, I think this merger could be a good thing, and I'm voting yes to the TA. I thought I had made this fairly clear in my previous posts. I was purely responding and disagreeing to WMUSIGPI's negativity on the whole situation, and commenting/correcting a few things that you had said earlier. From your last post it appears you are blasting me, but essentially saying the same thing that I was saying the whole time. Maybe I'm misreading your post. If so, I apologize. Either way, I agree with your last post. Sorry for the confusion...

 

[CptMurf]

No blasting intended. I used your quote only to start the reply. Sorry if it was taken that way.