Pinnacle, Mesaba, Colgan SLI

[Flyer1015]

You forget PDT/ALG a few years ago, and I think more recently, CHQ & Shuttle America.

No sheet Shirlock, I'm not talking about simple 2-airline mergers! Arbitrator Bloch just did the recent Delta and Northwest SLI. There are plenty of examples of just 2-airline mergers. Those are far easier than taking 3 (or more airlines) and merging them into one list. Arbitrator Bloch will have very few examples, Eagle being one of them.

 

[Flyer1015]

DOH will not be accepted at Colgan or Pinnacle. Mesaba won't like straight relative. Its going to have to be some sort of combo. How DOH is weighted toward Relative is the big question.

LOL! I love how people can speak like they can think what the arbitrator will rule or that they can somehow rule a binding arbitration decision. Face it, DOH *can* happen and if it's decided in binding arbitration, you will live with it.

I say again, we expect to be fairly integrated. I dont think that is unreasonable.

I don't think Colgan deserves anything but DOH. Your carrier, of all 3, has the fastest movement, and there are no 'by choice' FOs of 3-4+ years. Mesaba and Pinnacle are filled with those. On the CA side, Colgan is super junior because of fast movement, while Mesaba and Pinnacle are not (at least, not anymore).

But who am I to say? I highly, highly doubt the 3 pilot groups will agree on a method with 100% mutual agreement. This will go to the arbitrator, and a binding arbitration decision will be made.

 

[Flyer1015]

My bet is on an arbitrator. If I show up junior to a guy with half my longevity things will get ugly.

And very much a possibility if relative integration is decided. A 2 year Colgan FO will have 'relative seniority' to you as a 4 or 4.5 year FO at Pinnacle. And in fact, he may even end up being more senior than you. I honestly can't see any "split"... like a partial DOH and a partial relative integration. And people need to stop comaring us to US Air/Am West. Entirely different situation there altogether. We are regionals, and as much as I hate to say it, we are very similar (as opposed to Am West/US Air). If I was a bettin man in Vegas, my guess of an arbitrated decision would be DOH.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

What you fail to consider is that Mesaba's FOs have much less longevity than Pinnacle's as well. Your small footprint is not as small as you think.

And what's not fair about date of hire? Time served is the one thing we all have in common.

Not really, and you are forgetting that thanks to the end of the old NWA Saab flying the DOH for captains here is quickly heading north of the pre bankruptcy days of 2005.

 

[xjhawk]

Having a 2 year pilot from Colgan placed in front of a 3-4-5-6-7... year pilot at pinnacle or Mesaba in not "fair". If you were hired 2 years ago, you go behind someone hired 3 years ago. That is "fair".

I should think that with how Colgan has gotten so many improvements with this contract that they should not be looking to have a 1 year guy bump a 7 year guy at 9E or XJ. I mean come on, lets be real. When I look at this TA and I see my healtcare only getting a little better, vacation getting a little better, and ready reserve rules being thrown out the window I should think maybe xj should get something on SLI. I am just saying........ You (colgan) get great new work rules, huge pay raises and now you want my seniority? We all know DOH is not likely to happen as is straight relative is not fair either. Some mix of all will most likely prevail. But that is not for us to decide, that is for our 9 negotiators to agree upon. I do not envy their next few months. in the end we might all think we got screwed and that is how the arbitraitor might rule is "fair". Oh and to you colgan guys and gals, I should think that your most senior people have nothing to worry about, none but a couple of our top 200 live out east and want to go to the Q400. who knows, maybe some fences is not a bad idea to protect some of your current positions and bidding seniority and CA slots. in the end it is not us, but our designated guys who will figure this all out. cross your fingers

 

[CoATP]

How about DOH 9L and XJ then with that list relative to 9E?

 

[Ridgeback]

Fence the top paying positions at XJ & 9E (900's), that takes of the top guys at each company...then who cares

 

[Flyprdu]

Fence the top paying positions at XJ & 9E (900's), that takes of the top guys at each company...then who cares

I hope you're joking. If not, you're a d*uchebag.

 

[Smarta$$]

How about DOH 9L and XJ then with that list relative to 9E?

How about DOH.

 

[prtyprtyprncss]

We'll know when we know...until then, this is all a game of "pin the pen*s on the guy that desperately needs it"...but I'm guessing DOH...

 

[Yodafly]

How about DOH 9L and XJ then with that list relative to 9E?

Thats as stupid as saying how about DOH for XJ and 9E and then with that list Relative for 9L

 

[Yodafly]

Anyone try running the lists using DOH then run the list using Relative and combine the two. Not sure how it would come out but seams like it might address some of the extreame cases of QOL changes

 

[Cordell]

Just a thought from an outsider

How about separating the captains and the first officers into two groups. Date of hire for captains and relative for first officers, and then add the first officers to the bottom of the captains' list. Just a thought from a businessman with 31 years of non-aviation personnel department experience!

 

[Simon Says]

How about separating the captains and the first officers into two groups. Date of hire for captains and relative for first officers, and then add the first officers to the bottom of the captains' list. Just a thought from a businessman with 31 years of non-aviation personnel department experience!

Thinking outside of the box is what we all need. The process that you brought up would have difficulties because some FO, choose to be FO's. There are some out there with 10, 11, even 12 years of longevity.

 

[Smarta$$]

How about separating the captains and the first officers into two groups. Date of hire for captains and relative for first officers, and then add the first officers to the bottom of the captains' list. Just a thought from a businessman with 31 years of non-aviation personnel department experience!

Why? How about DOH? Done.

 

[Cordell]

Thinking outside of the box is what we all need. The process that you brought up would have difficulties because some FO, choose to be FO's. There are some out there with 10, 11, even 12 years of longevity.

Wouldn't that put those who were fos for all those years at the top of the fo list giving them the first shot at upgrades, schedules, vacations? What would they lose? Again, I'm an outsider making suggestions to a difficult challenge where there doesn't appear to be an easy solution.

 

[Cordell]

Thinking outside of the box is what we all need. The process that you brought up would have difficulties because some FO, choose to be FO's. There are some out there with 10, 11, even 12 years of longevity.

Perhaps adding a clause stating FOs, who were placed on the list by relative position in the SLI, when upgrading will be reslotted on the seniority list by their DOH. Those who want to stay FOs will probably still be on or near the top of their seniority list of FOs for choice schedules, vacation and upgrades.

 

[Simon Says]

Wouldn't that put those who were fos for all those years at the top of the fo list giving them the first shot at upgrades, schedules, vacations? What would they lose? Again, I'm an outsider making suggestions to a difficult challenge where there doesn't appear to be an easy solution.

Even though I am a Captain and have 12 years of Senority, if an FO upgrades and have been here for 13 years they will be senior. Captain, FO makes no difference on longevity.

Your senority doesn't reset when you upgrade to Captain.

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

There is something that a lot of people are forgetting in the little SLI discussion and that is the word "windfall".

In the context of the SLI and ALPA merger policy (something the arbitrator will have to use), there is a line that states something about no single pilot group can receive a "Windfall" or excessive benefit over another or other pilot groups. It could be argued that with the changes in work rules, pay, etc PLUS the added potential of placing a 3 year "Q" captain at the same seniority as a 9 to 12 year 900 captain would be a "windfall". Same could be said for a 2 year FO getting placed with 5 to 7 year FO's and Captains.

After hearing arguments from each group the arbitrator will go in a room and decide then bang - it's a seniority list. I'd prefer this to NOT go to arbitration because there could be some compromise, whereas arbitration could be a poo sandwich for a lot of us.

What I want is to be secure in my seat, my base, get off reserve some time before retirement, and the knowledge that I will get the 900 or "Q" some time in the reasonable future. That and not being JM'd on my days off or having sneaky extensions. Other than that I can be real flexible without the need to crush someone else.

 

[xjhawk]

There is something that a lot of people are forgetting in the little SLI discussion and that is the word "windfall".

In the context of the SLI and ALPA merger policy (something the arbitrator will have to use), there is a line that states something about no single pilot group can receive a "Windfall" or excessive benefit over another or other pilot groups. It could be argued that with the changes in work rules, pay, etc PLUS the added potential of placing a 3 year "Q" captain at the same seniority as a 9 to 12 year 900 captain would be a "windfall". Same could be said for a 2 year FO getting placed with 5 to 7 year FO's and Captains.

After hearing arguments from each group the arbitrator will go in a room and decide then bang - it's a seniority list. I'd prefer this to NOT go to arbitration because there could be some compromise, whereas arbitration could be a poo sandwich for a lot of us.


What I want is to be secure in my seat, my base, get off reserve some time before retirement, and the knowledge that I will get the 900 or "Q" some time in the reasonable future. That and not being JM'd on my days off or having sneaky extensions. Other than that I can be real flexible without the need to crush someone else.

That was well said "Mr Hirboubi" I agree on what you have stated. I want everyone to also realise that there are a lot of senior Saab captains and FO's that will soon need new spots. What I heard in recurrent is that sometime this summer MEM and DTW will be gone as Saab bases and next winter MSP will be gone. I have not looked in MEM or DTW but the last time I looked at the Captain list there are about 40 pilots more senior to the both of us. If I do my math right (make all the jokes you want about that) but I am about 20 numbers shy of holding a MSP captain position as things sit right now. The only way I will not be commuting will be if people leave to Delta or elsewhere in the next year.

That said I also think this TA was signed so quickly because there is something bigger than Saab flying coming our way. It is only because I am trying to think positive but I hope it is something like Q's in MSP or out west somewhere. I have commuted to reserve and do not want to do it again-I would hate to have to take a Fo position in MSP and be a almost 9 year FO and maybe not even be in the top 5! Oh and I have ran into a few FO's that think that those Saab pilots must stay in the Saab if they are displaced from MSP DTW or MEM. This is not the case, they will take whatever their seniority can hold them

 

[Ridgeback]

There is something that a lot of people are forgetting in the little SLI discussion and that is the word "windfall".

.

What do you mean...Colgan got that in the TA...9E wasn't far behind...Mesaba guys have to get their "windfall" in the SLI.

Meaba Pilots...

1 No raise
2 Lost flow
3 Will loose 108 senority spots to the grandfathered flows...Now you'll get 1/3 of the upward movement.
4 get a 9E pc
5 Crappy pass bennies
6 JFK base
7 ect

 

[DoinTime]

What do you mean...Colgan got that in the TA...9E wasn't far behind...Mesaba guys have to get their "windfall" in the SLI.

Meaba Pilots...

1 No raise
2 Lost flow
3 Will loose 108 senority spots to the grandfathered flows...Now you'll get 1/3 of the upward movement.
4 get a 9E pc
5 Crappy pass bennies
6 JFK base
7 ect

Mesaba pilots got to avoid 400 additional furloughs and 200 captain displacements. Seems pretty fair all around.

 

[xjhawk]

I know that in the end it will be a complicated process to come to an agreement (if not the arbitrator will take care of us all in whatever means he sees fit) decided by 9 pilots. But heck I would be game for a DOH with fences on 9E's 900's and the same for Mesaba's 900's. Then put fences on a certain number of Q400 at colgan that they have on property and maybe even some they have on order. Any new aircraft would be open to all. but with ALPA's guidance I am sure they will figure out a way to get this done in a way we will all ........like?

 

[xjhawk]

Mesaba pilots got to avoid 400 additional furloughs and 200 captain displacements. Seems pretty fair all around.

That is a good point. But even with this new deal I and many others will be displaced with the loss of Saabs

 

[xjgearbtch]

Mesaba pilots got to avoid 400 additional furloughs and 200 captain displacements. Seems pretty fair all around.

That is a staffing issue not a negotiated item. The bulk of the money that this contract doles out is to 9L first and 9E second. Mesaba pilots do not get a windfall out of this. I fully expect to see balancing of this disparity during SLI.

 

[prtyprtyprncss]

Ridgeback, I'm curious about the "9e PC" statement...I know that some of the MSP sim instructors are jittery about what the future holds for them...but I haven't seen anywhere in the summary (not saying it's not there, I could've missed it) that indicates XJ instructors won't be kept on as such...

 

[Ridgeback]

Ridgeback, I'm curious about the "9e PC" statement...I know that some of the MSP sim instructors are jittery about what the future holds for them...but I haven't seen anywhere in the summary (not saying it's not there, I could've missed it) that indicates XJ instructors won't be kept on as such...

Rvisions to your fom/pom in three segments. Shortly after the third phase 3-5 xj aircraft transfered to 9e's certificate/group. "X" number of XJ pilots will go with the aircraft, but first be givin 1 day ground, 1 sim, 1 pc to "operate" 9e aircraft 9e's way...

Hope the 9e check airman like mesaba guys...

 

[Ridgeback]

That is a staffing issue not a negotiated item. The bulk of the money that this contract doles out is to 9L first and 9E second. Mesaba pilots do not get a windfall out of this. I fully expect to see balancing of this disparity during SLI.[/QUOTE]


Bingo..the real prize of this TA goes to.......MESABA PILOTS!!!!

 

[CptMurf]

Mesaba pilots got to avoid 400 additional furloughs and 200 captain displacements. Seems pretty fair all around.

Pretty weak argument. Top 600 XJ pilots have seen little to no gain with the TA. We knew our next contract would have little gains for the 900 CAs, to straighten out the blended FO rate, so most of us rationalize the TA that way. But whatever happens with the SLI, this is a truth that should be understood by all.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Mesaba pilots got to avoid 400 additional furloughs and 200 captain displacements. Seems pretty fair all around.

Really.... We have 7 CA's being displaced as of monday which will cause several more (I one of them) to subsequently be displaced.... True there are no furloughs OR recalls right now. but to say we are not still displacing is not yet true. If I had the option to go now to 200 DTW captain then maybe I'd look the other way at the $5/hr paycut to not be having to commute and maybe even getting to hold a standup line.... Instead I will be looking at either a $36 paycut or a $21 paycut and a difficult (as they all have become) commute.
We might avoid any more furloughs in liew of you guys needing to hire as soon but as for captain displacements, unless you have been told something we haven't, there are still over 100 Saab captains that ARE going to be displaced, at this moment leading to potentially (read almost guaranteed) at least 70 900 captains being displaced. Thanks to the end of the flow up basically every Saab captain here has now changed their bid to 900 captain in thier chosen base as top priority.