Pinnacle, Mesaba, Colgan SLI

[xjhawk]

if you are so worried about the most senior of the senior I have a solution. at pinnacle your most senior position is ATL and your 900's and the same can be said about the DTW/MEM/MSP mesaba 900's. So lets fence all those and keep them exclusively for the pilots of each company. That would protect your most senior guys precious summer vacations and weekends. I am not one to think this is a good solution to bring us together but it would give me a chance to get to the 900 if I do not move on. If I do not move on, my plan was to be on the 900 but is unlikely if a bad SLI happens.

 

[Simon Says]

Listen, I understand you have more time at company than I and I don't think I should be senior to you. I just hope they can find a solution that is the least detrimental to everyone's quality of life pre merger.

Do you think I should take a big hit in my quality of life over this merger? Should I have to go back to tuesday, wednesday's off because PNCL decided to purchase Mesaba?

What is fair? How would you define it?

First off you qualified your statement of merging the list by saying "all CJC pilots" and "merging without fences"

I think what you meant was specifically you, and not all CJC pilots...which is fine. I just want what I am saying in context.

Second is merging without fences. This merge will more than likely have fences. One on the Q-400 CA, and the other on the CRJ-900 CA. With that said I should be senior to you on the list, but I could not bump you out of position or schedule for a time being. What is that time? I don't know, but with the merger of the SLI their will be quite a few guys coming in senior to you fair or not. For me guys with less years of service will be coming in senior to me fair or not. It is the way it is.

With all of that said here is what you need to think about with the TA contract. You may be able to hold whatever you want now and bid whatever schedule you may desire. Once the SLI is integrated then you may be worrying about the 4 hour min day/ reserve/ and section 25.

 

[suupah]

One thing is for certain: The merger committee has a tough job to do.

 

[CptMurf]

Date of hire without fences would not be fair to cjc pilots. I think that longevity should count for something, but there must be a way to integrate such that in the new company, your bidding for schedules and vacation will be close to what you had prior to the merger. I have been at cjc for 6 years and am sitting at about 15%. I hold weekends off/capt on the Q. I don't expect to come out at 15% on the combined list but anywhere under 25% would be justifiable and acceptable to me.

The argument about CJC gaining so much in the contract does not work for me personally as I would rather keep my current pay and workrules with weekends off then get the pay bump (I rarely if ever get extended or junior manned, have less then 11 days off, work for less than 4 hours in a day as it is so the work rules I have seen so far don't help me that much) and lose my schedule. My schedule is my quality of life.

In all fairness suupah, I respect every point you make, but I could also apply every point to myself. 12 years at XJ gets you about 21%-25% of our list, and a descent schedule. With the JCBA we get NO raise whatsoever. Exactly how is it fair to us, if we get no raise and have to let you in front of us at 15%-25% (with a huge raise) to ensure your quality of life? Although it may seem fair to you to not end up lower than 25% on the combined list, it is unfair to the 7-10 year people at XJ/9E that you would get to integrate in front of.

The thing is, there is no right answer. Everyone of us will be affected differently no matter how we integrate. We will have to make personal changes (Seat/Base/Equipment) to get back to an acceptable QOL for ourselves.

 

[Smarta$$]

You guys keep talking about the 900 like it is a FU#%^NG A330. IT IS A CRJ! It has an extra ugly old lady and a forward potty. Oh, and FIVE WHOLE EXTRA DOLLARS PER HOUR.

I'm sure it is a nice plane, but put your boners away already. Your a CRJ pilot, get over yourselves.

 

[Simon Says]

You guys keep talking about the 900 like it is a FU#%^NG A330. IT IS A CRJ! It has an extra ugly old lady and a forward potty. Oh, and FIVE WHOLE EXTRA DOLLARS PER HOUR.

I'm sure it is a nice plane, but put your boners away already. Your a CRJ pilot, get over yourselves.

I could careless what airplane it is. I chase the pay and quality of life. Between those two I don't know what is more important. So, for me it is not the type of airplane I fly.

 

[Ridgeback]

You guys keep talking about the 900 like it is a FU#%^NG A330. IT IS A CRJ! It has an extra ugly old lady and a forward potty. Oh, and FIVE WHOLE EXTRA DOLLARS PER HOUR.

I'm sure it is a nice plane, but put your boners away already. Your a CRJ pilot, get over yourselves.

WRONG!!

when dual qual is implemented if your a 900 captain you will always get 900 pay

If you were a 900 captain and now your a 200 captain you'll only get the 900 pay when you fly the 900. So yet again Mesaba Pilots are set up to get screwed again...by $5/hour...

 

[CptMurf]

You guys keep talking about the 900 like it is a FU#%^NG A330. IT IS A CRJ! It has an extra ugly old lady and a forward potty. Oh, and FIVE WHOLE EXTRA DOLLARS PER HOUR.

I'm sure it is a nice plane, but put your boners away already. Your a CRJ pilot, get over yourselves.

Quite honestly, it's the biggest POS of the 3 transport category that I've flown. But it pays better and the schedules nice.

 

[RJLoser]

Yes folks, Put away the boners. Classic!

 

[Smarta$$]

If QOL was truly the primary factor, your relative seniority will go farther on the 200, i.e. better choice of vacations, more days off, holidays off and weekends off, because it is slightly more junior.

I'm not buying it. I think it is not the 5 bucks an hour you are whining about.

 

[CptMurf]

If QOL was truly the primary factor, your relative seniority will go farther on the 200, i.e. better choice of vacations, more days off, holidays off and weekends off, because it is slightly more junior.

I'm not buying it. I think it is not the 5 bucks an hour you are whining about.

Except I don't live in MSP, which is our only 200 base. And for me that commute would be much harder. I'm personally looking forward to the possibility the Q. But without knowing how the SLI will go, or Q bases, it's a wait and see.

 

[Simon Says]

If QOL was truly the primary factor, your relative seniority will go farther on the 200, i.e. better choice of vacations, more days off, holidays off and weekends off, because it is slightly more junior.

I'm not buying it. I think it is not the 5 bucks an hour you are whining about.

You are truly living by your username. I said pay and quality of life. The pay difference is actually 5.97 difference and I live out of domicile, but based in MEM. Easiest commute to MEM because of Fed Ex.

So, if I would commute to MSP and take the 5.97 pay bump would not be worth it. Plus our 200 is fairly senior in MSP. I think I would bid about the same as I do on the 900.

 

[Yodafly]

Lots of opinions but mine has not changed, Years of service and Relative senority need to be equally weighted. This will prevent the windfall or significant loss of quality of life.

 

[suupah]

Except I don't live in MSP, which is our only 200 base. And for me that commute would be much harder. I'm personally looking forward to the possibility the Q. But without knowing how the SLI will go, or Q bases, it's a wait and see.

If you are a commuter I would avoid the Q. Thing is responsible for so many missed commutes because of reliability issues. But then again, hopefully Mesaba mx will be taking over hopefully and things will get a bit better.

 

[suupah]

Lots of opinions but mine has not changed, Years of service and Relative senority need to be equally weighted. This will prevent the windfall or significant loss of quality of life.

This, I can get jiggy with.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Why do I (as a memeber of the 6-8 year junior 900 CA group) feel like I am about to get boned so hard that not only will I have to be here at least 10 more years to get back my 900 CA seat once the downgrade comes in a couple months but I may well be put in a position that I may well not even be able to get to a 200 CA spot anytime soon. I feel like I am being set up to be forced to commute to a Colgan Saab base or sit as a 900 FO for eternity...

And yes for the record spots 15 and 16 are the new LGA spots on my pref bid. As would any JFK or EWR basing on any type... You couldn't talk me into a 748 to have to be based around NYC.

 

[Flyer1015]

CptMurf has good points. I honestly think it'll end up being straight-up DOH, with protection for current seat/base. Any future upgrades/vacancies will be whatever your seniority can hold. That'd be my best guess. I really don't think an arbitrator is going to start goin in percentages for 3 regionals, like 25% DOH, 50% SLI, and 25% whatever else. It's gonna most likely be a straight up DOH, straight up relative, or straight up whatever else. Opinions will vary, but again, I'm thinking DOH with protection for current base/seat is what will end up happening.

 

[suupah]

Why do I (as a memeber of the 6-8 year junior 900 CA group) feel like I am about to get boned so hard that not only will I have to be here at least 10 more years to get back my 900 CA seat once the downgrade comes in a couple months but I may well be put in a position that I may well not even be able to get to a 200 CA spot anytime soon. I feel like I am being set up to be forced to commute to a Colgan Saab base or sit as a 900 FO for eternity...

And yes for the record spots 15 and 16 are the new LGA spots on my pref bid. As would any JFK or EWR basing on any type... You couldn't talk me into a 748 to have to be based around NYC.

there are some pretty senior guys at 9e and xj. How big are the over ten year guys? I'm assuming the bulk of the pilot groups are around 03 and newer with a smaller group with really senior hire dates?

 

[Carl_Spackler]

It should be relative. I know it sucks to have people move ahead of you that have fewer years of service, but relative would allow all to keeps their base, seat and schedule. Schedule is the big one. Who would want to keep their seat and base but go from 18 days off to 12?

No matter what happens, there will be plenty of people that will feel screwed. I just hope it doesn't make it to arbitration. I'd much rather have 9 pilots decide my seniority that 1 arbitrator.

 

[suupah]

It should be relative. I know it sucks to have people move ahead of you that have fewer years of service, but relative would allow all to keeps their base, seat and schedule. Schedule is the big one. Who would want to keep their seat and base but go from 18 days off to 12?

No matter what happens, there will be plenty of people that will feel screwed. I just hope it doesn't make it to arbitration. I'd much rather have 9 pilots decide my seniority that 1 arbitrator.

I agree with the exception that some credit should go toward longevity. A hybrid of DOH and Relative seniority. Has this ever been done?

 

[Flyprdu]

It should be relative. I know it sucks to have people move ahead of you that have fewer years of service, but relative would allow all to keeps their base, seat and schedule. Schedule is the big one.

^^^ FALSE. This is all about a windfall grab of maintaining lifestyle on the backs (once again) of junior pilots at Pinnacle that will get destroyed by relative.

You've got the signing bonus. You've had cherry schedules for years. What else do you want now?
"Oh yeah, make sure I don't lose any of it... Thanks for all you do, Junior guys."

 

[Carl_Spackler]

^^^ FALSE. This is all about a windfall grab of maintaining lifestyle on the backs (once again) of junior pilots at Pinnacle that will get destroyed by relative.

You've got the signing bonus. You've had cherry schedules for years. What else do you want now?
"Oh yeah, make sure I don't lose any of it... Thanks for all you do, Junior guys."

I fail to see how keeping your seat/ base/schedule with a relative integration will destroy any group of pilots.

Pinnacle got the signing bonus because we have been the ones working under an amendable contract for the last 5.5 years. What else do I want? How about keeping a similar schedule to what I've had for the past few years. I'm not expecting to be able to hold tue-thu 3 day trips on the 900, but I don't think it would be fair to go to 12 days off and work every weekend either. I nothing is fair, but relative is the least unfair.

 

[Yodafly]

Straight DOH would not be accepted by our SLI team.

Therefore....

either: relative...or...hybrid...or...arbitration.

 

[CptMurf]

It should be relative. I know it sucks to have people move ahead of you that have fewer years of service, but relative would allow all to keeps their base, seat and schedule. Schedule is the big one. Who would want to keep their seat and base but go from 18 days off to 12?

No matter what happens, there will be plenty of people that will feel screwed. I just hope it doesn't make it to arbitration. I'd much rather have 9 pilots decide my seniority that 1 arbitrator.

So your saying it should be relative to protect YOUR schedule at the loss of someone else's schedule. *Nice*

 

[DoinTime]

So your saying it should be relative to protect YOUR schedule at the loss of someone else's schedule. *Nice*

Relative doesn't degrade anyones schedule. Not even yours.

 

[Carl_Spackler]

So your saying it should be relative to protect YOUR schedule at the loss of someone else's schedule. *Nice*

The idea is that if everyone stays in their seat, base and holds the same schedule there is no loss to anyone. No one gains and no one loses QOL.

 

[CptMurf]

Relative doesn't degrade anyones schedule. Not even yours.

Until the first vacancy... Then it's a slow death.

 

[CptMurf]

The idea is that if everyone stays in their seat, base and holds the same schedule there is no loss to anyone. No one gains and no one loses QOL.

But they may lose seniority (read longevity) and therefore do lose schedule and QOL, just over time. Wish I had those rose colored glasses.

The more and more that I think of it DOH is the ONLY fair way. Everything else is a fantasy in not hurting your coworkers feelings at your own loss. Sorry coworkers, don't mean to hurt your feelings, but this IS a seniority based industry based on your HIRE date.

 

[DoinTime]

Sorry coworkers, don't mean to hurt your feelings, but this IS a seniority based industry based on your HIRE date.

Your current seniority is based on your hire date at your originating airline. Your hire date is irrelevant to me. I don't work at your airline. In fact, you'll be coming to work at my airline.

 

[the palm]

The "winners" of the SLI should be from the acquiring carrier, Pinnacle. That would mean a relative seniority integration with Mesaba and then staple Colgan. Thats how I would do it anyway.