Pinnacle gets TA

[PCL_128]

.....then why do you promote it?

I don't. I promote brand scope, eventually leading to single lists. The outsourcing whipsaw must stop.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I don't. I promote brand scope, eventually leading to single lists. The outsourcing whipsaw must stop.

You also went from Gulfstream to Pinnacle to Air Tran....Chasing the "greener grass" yourself....You also ridicule those who actually stay and make a career out of the regionals...You are part of this problem....Don't you see that?

By the way, how is that "brand scope" going?

 

[PCL_128]

You also went from Gulfstream to Pinnacle to Air Tran....Chasing the "greener grass" yourself....

Yep, such is the industry. Everyone is trying to move on to a "career airline" that has good pay, work rules, and benefits. Until we fix the outsourcing problem, that's not going to go away, Joey. Most people aren't content to spend a career at the regionals. You say yourself that "30%" of the regional guys are lifers (I think that's an exaggeration, but for argument's sake...), so you're admitting that nearly 3/4 of all regional pilots are planning to move on. It's just reality.

You also ridicule those who actually stay and make a career out of the regionals...You are part of this problem....Don't you see that?

Not at all. I don't ridicule that guys that are making a career out of the regionals, I ridicule guys that are doing so and have such an inferiority complex that they've devoted their lives to trying to steal mainline seniority while simultaneously trying to convince everyone that their regional is the best thing since sliced bread.

By the way, how is that "brand scope" going?

Not too good. Arrogant mainline pilots wouldn't sit down to talk about it, and arrogant RJ lifers wouldn't consider reasonable integration proposals. People like you killed the idea, Joey.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

The TA apparently just passed the MEC. Read EVERY word, guys and gals.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Yep, such is the industry. Everyone is trying to move on to a "career airline" that has good pay, work rules, and benefits. Until we fix the outsourcing problem, that's not going to go away, Joey. Most people aren't content to spend a career at the regionals. You say yourself that "30%" of the regional guys are lifers (I think that's an exaggeration, but for argument's sake...), so you're admitting that nearly 3/4 of all regional pilots are planning to move on. It's just reality.

That is exactly why we have the situation we have....You support it, you participate in it....yet you admit that it is a problem....

3/4 of all regional pilots are planning to move on....Doesn't mean they will move on however.....

Not at all. I don't ridicule that guys that are making a career out of the regionals, I ridicule guys that are doing so and have such an inferiority complex that they've devoted their lives to trying to steal mainline seniority while simultaneously trying to convince everyone that their regional is the best thing since sliced bread.

Nobody is trying to "steal mainline seniority"....In fact, it is the other way around....I'm not trying to get 15 years longevity on a Maddog list.....but some of them are trying to have 2 years there bump me down on an RJ....Who is trying to "steal seniority"?

Not too good. Arrogant mainline pilots wouldn't sit down to talk about it, and arrogant RJ lifers wouldn't consider reasonable integration proposals. People like you killed the idea, Joey.

We are getting somewhere with you...You admit there is "arrogance" at the mainline level....The "RJ lifers", who you just said you respect, just want protection....They are very open to a "reasonable integration proposal"...Why do you think they aren't?

 

[JoeMerchant]

The TA apparently just passed the MEC. Read EVERY word, guys and gals.

Of course it did...It will pass at the pilot level also...

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Of course it did...It will pass at the pilot level also...

I've heard a few of the rumors in regards to the contents arent as bad as was first thought, esp in regarding to pay (apparently starting with the current industry average and a min raise per year as well as a max raise per year to keep up with the average).

We'll see what comes out when it's actually put out to the masses.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I've heard a few of the rumors in regards to the contents arent as bad as was first thought, esp in regarding to pay (apparently starting with the current industry average and a min raise per year as well as a max raise per year to keep up with the average).

We'll see what comes out when it's actually put out to the masses.

It's far below ASA...This will put Pinnacle at the head of the line for new flying...The undercutting amongst union "brothers" continues...

 

[dondk]

I've heard a few of the rumors in regards to the contents arent as bad as was first thought, esp in regarding to pay (apparently starting with the current industry average and a min raise per year as well as a max raise per year to keep up with the average).

We'll see what comes out when it's actually put out to the masses.

I just hope they don't flip to section 3 and base everything on that (some will though).

For Joe, if it does pass, it will not be a landslide, that is certain. The MEC did not vote unanimously, nor do I think the pilot group will.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I just hope they don't flip to section 3 and base everything on that (some will though).

For Joe, if it does pass, it will not be a landslide, that is certain. The MEC did not vote unanimously, nor do I think the pilot group will.

60/40 pass....

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Joe, you didn't seriously expect this contract to be "industry leading," did you? They are making the jump up from the bottom.

I wouldn't hold my breath on much in the way of more DCI flying to be awarded, anyways.


I def agree with you, don- it's going to be a pretty close vote probably. Much of the group is already springloaded to a no vote. It will be interesting to see the reaction when it comes out... and they had dang well better look beyond section 3 if they know what's good for them.

 

[PCL_128]

That is exactly why we have the situation we have....You support it, you participate in it....yet you admit that it is a problem....

I don't support it, I just recognize it as reality. You want to live in a fantasy world, but I'm a pragmatist. I'll deal with reality and then try to change it for the better.

3/4 of all regional pilots are planning to move on....Doesn't mean they will move on however.....

Very true, especially with all of the outsourcing destroying the few opportunities that are left at the mainline carriers.

Nobody is trying to "steal mainline seniority"....In fact, it is the other way around....I'm not trying to get 15 years longevity on a Maddog list.....but some of them are trying to have 2 years there bump me down on an RJ....Who is trying to "steal seniority"?

Both of you. They want super-seniority on your equipment, and you've said many times that you want a "W2 integration," which if your claims of your income are accurate, would put you above many DAL FOs. Neither is a reasonable demand.

We are getting somewhere with you...You admit there is "arrogance" at the mainline level....The "RJ lifers", who you just said you respect, just want protection....They are very open to a "reasonable integration proposal"...Why do you think they aren't?

Because they haven't been reasonable so far. As I said, you've long demanded a "W2 integration," which is completely unreasonable.

 

[Flyer1015]

Of course it did...It will pass at the pilot level also...

60/40 pass....

Joe Merchant knows us all to well. Of course it will pass. It will pass for the same reason we still have guys closing up the door and dropping the brake before the load slip is onboard. And for the same reason guys worry about being on time or at least within "Arrival+14"

Why else do you think 9E is always on top.

60/40 pass?

NO WAY.

My guess is AT LEAST 70/30 pass. More likely, 80/20 pass.

 

[Flyer1015]

On a separate note, the pay rates did go up then the previously disclosed amounts. Last minute adjustment to the industry average when compared to regional carriers. Bottom line is the compensation went up since the last time the pilot group heard about it, and the rates are a big reason people want to vote no. Silly in my opinion, because the rest of the TA needs to be considered too. Time will tell, but it does seem the compensation rates increased by a decent amount from the amounts we last heard, and there are increase provisions apparently sorta like Eagle.

But no matter, this TA passed the MEC with a decent margin (as in, not close), and it will pass the pilot group with a decent margin as well.

 

[73belair]

60/40 pass....

80/20 at least.

 

[JustaNumber]

They want super-seniority on your equipment, and you've said many times that you want a "W2 integration," which if your claims of your income are accurate, would put you above many DAL FOs. Neither is a reasonable demand.

By your logic then, the only thing that is a reasonable demand, that would avoid putting Joe above many DAL FOs, would be a staple. Is that your position?

Here's an interesting idea I've come up with. How about stapling a regional to the bottom of a mainline list, but with a permanent fence with a one-way gate. Any furloughs would come off of each separate list, just like happens now. Any openings on each list would be filled by anyone on the other list. Very similar to the way it's done now. That way, no one would get a seniority windfall, yet the two are "combined" for the purpose of ending whipsaw. I know it will never happen, but it's an idea.

 

[dondk]

But no matter, this TA passed the MEC with a decent margin (as in, not close), and it will pass the pilot group with a decent margin as well.

rumor was 5/3 on the MEC vote. Not that great of a margin.

I doubt 80/20, I don't think XJ had that much of a margin when they signed a few years back, and they did strike.

 

[PCL_128]

By your logic then, the only thing that is a reasonable demand, that would avoid putting Joe above many DAL FOs, would be a staple. Is that your position?

Here's an interesting idea I've come up with. How about stapling a regional to the bottom of a mainline list, but with a permanent fence with a one-way gate. Any furloughs would come off of each separate list, just like happens now. Any openings on each list would be filled by anyone on the other list. Very similar to the way it's done now. That way, no one would get a seniority windfall, yet the two are "combined" for the purpose of ending whipsaw. I know it will never happen, but it's an idea.

Actually, your idea is similar to what I've envisioned. I think it would be best to create two seniority lists: one combined list with the DCI carrier stapled to the bottom of the DAL list for the purposes of bidding all of the mainline equipment, and then a second list with the current DCI pilots at the top and the current DAL pilots under them for the purposes of bidding the DCI equipment for the DAL pilots. As newhires come on to the DAL property, they would go to the bottom of the combined list, and as DCI pilots retired, the second list would eventually go away and be replaced by the combined list.

This would give all DCI pilots the ability to bid up to mainline equipment as seniority allows, but guys like Joe that don't want to give up their seniority on their DCI equipment would have protection from being bumped down.

 

[Carl_Spackler]

I doubt 80/20, I don't think XJ had that much of a margin when they signed a few years back, and they did strike.

Did they? I remember that the 30 day cooling off period came to an end and they kept talking till they had a deal. Did it happen at 3am for a few minutes?

 

[Carl_Spackler]

The initial 76 seat rates are the average of:

ASA
Comair
Compass
Mesaba
Republic
Skywest

44-59 seat turbojet CA:

57.38
59.68
61.96
64.01
65.94
67.93
69.98
72.10
74.33
76.62
78.83
81.37
83.76
86.24
88.25
89.98
91.68
93.29

FO:
23.11
32.15
35.06
36.83
37.84
38.69
39.47
40.05


60-76 turbojet CA:
61.27
63.10
65.73
67.70
69.39
71.52
73.72
75.91
78.57
81.31
83.78
86.48
89.02
91.77
94.52
97.07
99.55
102.09

FO:
25.73
34.48
36.81
38.33
39.30
40.26
41.25
42.03
42.06
42.08
42.08
42.08
42.08
42.08
43.07
44.03
44.93
45.96