Pinnacle gets TA

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Joe, you didn't seriously expect this contract to be "industry leading," did you? They are making the jump up from the bottom.

I wouldn't hold my breath on much in the way of more DCI flying to be awarded, anyways.


I def agree with you, don- it's going to be a pretty close vote probably. Much of the group is already springloaded to a no vote. It will be interesting to see the reaction when it comes out... and they had dang well better look beyond section 3 if they know what's good for them.

 

[PCL_128]

That is exactly why we have the situation we have....You support it, you participate in it....yet you admit that it is a problem....

I don't support it, I just recognize it as reality. You want to live in a fantasy world, but I'm a pragmatist. I'll deal with reality and then try to change it for the better.

3/4 of all regional pilots are planning to move on....Doesn't mean they will move on however.....

Very true, especially with all of the outsourcing destroying the few opportunities that are left at the mainline carriers.

Nobody is trying to "steal mainline seniority"....In fact, it is the other way around....I'm not trying to get 15 years longevity on a Maddog list.....but some of them are trying to have 2 years there bump me down on an RJ....Who is trying to "steal seniority"?

Both of you. They want super-seniority on your equipment, and you've said many times that you want a "W2 integration," which if your claims of your income are accurate, would put you above many DAL FOs. Neither is a reasonable demand.

We are getting somewhere with you...You admit there is "arrogance" at the mainline level....The "RJ lifers", who you just said you respect, just want protection....They are very open to a "reasonable integration proposal"...Why do you think they aren't?

Because they haven't been reasonable so far. As I said, you've long demanded a "W2 integration," which is completely unreasonable.

 

[Flyer1015]

Of course it did...It will pass at the pilot level also...

60/40 pass....

Joe Merchant knows us all to well. Of course it will pass. It will pass for the same reason we still have guys closing up the door and dropping the brake before the load slip is onboard. And for the same reason guys worry about being on time or at least within "Arrival+14"

Why else do you think 9E is always on top.

60/40 pass?

NO WAY.

My guess is AT LEAST 70/30 pass. More likely, 80/20 pass.

 

[Flyer1015]

On a separate note, the pay rates did go up then the previously disclosed amounts. Last minute adjustment to the industry average when compared to regional carriers. Bottom line is the compensation went up since the last time the pilot group heard about it, and the rates are a big reason people want to vote no. Silly in my opinion, because the rest of the TA needs to be considered too. Time will tell, but it does seem the compensation rates increased by a decent amount from the amounts we last heard, and there are increase provisions apparently sorta like Eagle.

But no matter, this TA passed the MEC with a decent margin (as in, not close), and it will pass the pilot group with a decent margin as well.

 

[73belair]

60/40 pass....

80/20 at least.

 

[JustaNumber]

They want super-seniority on your equipment, and you've said many times that you want a "W2 integration," which if your claims of your income are accurate, would put you above many DAL FOs. Neither is a reasonable demand.

By your logic then, the only thing that is a reasonable demand, that would avoid putting Joe above many DAL FOs, would be a staple. Is that your position?

Here's an interesting idea I've come up with. How about stapling a regional to the bottom of a mainline list, but with a permanent fence with a one-way gate. Any furloughs would come off of each separate list, just like happens now. Any openings on each list would be filled by anyone on the other list. Very similar to the way it's done now. That way, no one would get a seniority windfall, yet the two are "combined" for the purpose of ending whipsaw. I know it will never happen, but it's an idea.

 

[dondk]

But no matter, this TA passed the MEC with a decent margin (as in, not close), and it will pass the pilot group with a decent margin as well.

rumor was 5/3 on the MEC vote. Not that great of a margin.

I doubt 80/20, I don't think XJ had that much of a margin when they signed a few years back, and they did strike.

 

[PCL_128]

By your logic then, the only thing that is a reasonable demand, that would avoid putting Joe above many DAL FOs, would be a staple. Is that your position?

Here's an interesting idea I've come up with. How about stapling a regional to the bottom of a mainline list, but with a permanent fence with a one-way gate. Any furloughs would come off of each separate list, just like happens now. Any openings on each list would be filled by anyone on the other list. Very similar to the way it's done now. That way, no one would get a seniority windfall, yet the two are "combined" for the purpose of ending whipsaw. I know it will never happen, but it's an idea.

Actually, your idea is similar to what I've envisioned. I think it would be best to create two seniority lists: one combined list with the DCI carrier stapled to the bottom of the DAL list for the purposes of bidding all of the mainline equipment, and then a second list with the current DCI pilots at the top and the current DAL pilots under them for the purposes of bidding the DCI equipment for the DAL pilots. As newhires come on to the DAL property, they would go to the bottom of the combined list, and as DCI pilots retired, the second list would eventually go away and be replaced by the combined list.

This would give all DCI pilots the ability to bid up to mainline equipment as seniority allows, but guys like Joe that don't want to give up their seniority on their DCI equipment would have protection from being bumped down.

 

[Carl_Spackler]

I doubt 80/20, I don't think XJ had that much of a margin when they signed a few years back, and they did strike.

Did they? I remember that the 30 day cooling off period came to an end and they kept talking till they had a deal. Did it happen at 3am for a few minutes?

 

[Carl_Spackler]

The initial 76 seat rates are the average of:

ASA
Comair
Compass
Mesaba
Republic
Skywest

44-59 seat turbojet CA:

57.38
59.68
61.96
64.01
65.94
67.93
69.98
72.10
74.33
76.62
78.83
81.37
83.76
86.24
88.25
89.98
91.68
93.29

FO:
23.11
32.15
35.06
36.83
37.84
38.69
39.47
40.05


60-76 turbojet CA:
61.27
63.10
65.73
67.70
69.39
71.52
73.72
75.91
78.57
81.31
83.78
86.48
89.02
91.77
94.52
97.07
99.55
102.09

FO:
25.73
34.48
36.81
38.33
39.30
40.26
41.25
42.03
42.06
42.08
42.08
42.08
42.08
42.08
43.07
44.03
44.93
45.96

 

[PCL_128]

Did they? I remember that the 30 day cooling off period came to an end and they kept talking till they had a deal. Did it happen at 3am for a few minutes?

No, they never technically went on strike, but they hit the deadline at midnight and the airline shut down for a couple of days while they worked out the details of a deal. The process works when politicians don't get their slimy hands in it. This was one of the few cases where Bush's NMB actually let the process work as it was supposed to.

 

[e=mc2]

Sounds like it will take a whole lot of lipstick to get this pig to look good.

The new call sign for you Pinnacleites - "We are Mesa lite"

New corporate motto - We lead the race to the bottom

 

[PCL_128]

The PCL MEC did the right thing by voting to send this out for a vote. If they had voted it down at the MEC level, there's no doubt that the NMB would have parked them. But if the pilot group votes it down, then it's likely that the NMB will just ask them to return to the table to fix a few key items so it will be able to be ratified by the pilots.

 

[JustaNumber]

The PCL MEC did the right thing by voting to send this out for a vote. If they had voted it down at the MEC level, there's no doubt that the NMB would have parked them. But if the pilot group votes it down, then it's likely that the NMB will just ask them to return to the table to fix a few key items so it will be able to be ratified by the pilots.

...if you call a few key items COLA raises to match inflation, rigs, 100%DH, and an overhaul of reserve rules. I'm not saying it needs to be industry-leading, but there is no reason it should be anything less than industry standard in all respects; "taking it back" shouldn't mean "taking it from the back."

 

[lrb]

Rates still less comair after the pay cut taken at comair 2.5 yrs ago, and that is after being frozen at the same rate pre-bankruptcy.
Would someone get a pair, you need to go above industry average.

 

[JoeMerchant]

The PCL MEC did the right thing by voting to send this out for a vote. If they had voted it down at the MEC level, there's no doubt that the NMB would have parked them. But if the pilot group votes it down, then it's likely that the NMB will just ask them to return to the table to fix a few key items so it will be able to be ratified by the pilots.

I thought your Messiah, Obama, was going to fix all this....Are you saying a Democratic NMB would park Pinnacle? How can that be?

 

[dondk]

Did they? I remember that the 30 day cooling off period came to an end and they kept talking till they had a deal. Did it happen at 3am for a few minutes?

I vaguely remember it was about 3 days worth. I started a trip as they went out and finished it when they came back. The place was a ghost town down in the old op's. Call it what you want, but the only flights operating were management pilots and the few that didn't go home.

 

[PCL_128]

...if you call a few key items COLA raises to match inflation, rigs, 100%DH, and an overhaul of reserve rules. I'm not saying it needs to be industry-leading, but there is no reason it should be anything less than industry standard in all respects; "taking it back" shouldn't mean "taking it from the back."

I wouldn't expect a complete overhaul of anything, but you could probably ratchet up the days off for reserves, get 100% DH, and bring up the pay rates. Rigs probably wouldn't happen, though. You could get a few things done pretty quickly with a rejected TA and get it back out for a new vote, but completely rewriting it will mean another 1-2 years.

I thought your Messiah, Obama, was going to fix all this....Are you saying a Democratic NMB would park Pinnacle? How can that be?

Haven't we been through this a dozen times already, Joey? The NMB would be right to park an MEC that rejected its own TA. The MEC has no one but themselves to blame if their own NC brings back a TA that they find unacceptable.

 

[pinn82]

Rates still less comair after the pay cut taken at comair 2.5 yrs ago, and that is after being frozen at the same rate pre-bankruptcy.
Would someone get a pair, you need to go above industry average.

I Don't know what you are looking at FO is pretty much the same as Comair and CA is on average $3 more an hour.

 

[AiRegency]

The initial 76 seat rates are the average of:

ASA
Comair
Compass
Mesaba
Republic
Skywest

44-59 seat turbojet CA:

57.38
59.68
61.96
64.01
65.94
67.93
69.98
72.10
74.33
76.62
78.83
81.37
83.76
86.24
88.25
89.98
91.68
93.29

FO:
23.11
32.15
35.06
36.83
37.84
38.69
39.47
40.05


60-76 turbojet CA:
61.27
63.10
65.73
67.70
69.39
71.52
73.72
75.91
78.57
81.31
83.78
86.48
89.02
91.77
94.52
97.07
99.55
102.09

FO:
25.73
34.48
36.81
38.33
39.30
40.26
41.25
42.03
42.06
42.08
42.08
42.08
42.08
42.08
43.07
44.03
44.93
45.96

Can anyone post the previous pay scale or a link to it?

 

[WayBack]

I thought your Messiah, Obama, was going to fix all this....Are you saying a Democratic NMB would park Pinnacle? How can that be?

Remember this bumbling fool (PFT-128)how he was prancing around and pounding his fist saying that PCL was going to strike, and the NMB would release them because Osama was President?
Hey PFT_128, I thought you were "ready to take it to the mat!"??? What happened? Just the thought of it has you get out of breath and cramp up in your hairy axe wound?

 

[BoilerUP]

If those posted rates are accurate, both the CA & FO 50 seat rates are below the Oct 2008 rates in AWAC's CONCESSIONARY 2003 contract...and the 60-76 seat FO rates are, too.

 

[dondk]

it is important to note these are the rates effective 5/04 and the rates they have been working off of since. The CAP was 15 years, the new CAP is 18 years.


-200 CA

[FONT=&quot]5/1/04[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 55.07 [/FONT][FONT=&quot] 56.76 [/FONT][FONT=&quot] 58.51 [/FONT][FONT=&quot] 60.31 [/FONT][FONT=&quot] 62.14 [/FONT][FONT=&quot] 63.96 [/FONT][FONT=&quot] 65.52 [/FONT][FONT=&quot] 67.42 [/FONT][FONT=&quot] 69.62 [/FONT][FONT=&quot] 71.62 [/FONT][FONT=&quot] 73.68 [/FONT][FONT=&quot] 75.80 [/FONT][FONT=&quot] 77.96 [/FONT][FONT=&quot] 80.21 [/FONT] 82.37

-200 FO

​

[FONT=&quot]5/1/04[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 20.73 [/FONT][FONT=&quot] 24.39 [/FONT][FONT=&quot] 30.09 [/FONT][FONT=&quot] 33.28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot] 34.31 [/FONT][FONT=&quot] 35.06 [/FONT][FONT=&quot] 35.64 [/FONT][FONT=&quot] 36.23 [/FONT][FONT=&quot] 36.23 [/FONT][FONT=&quot] 36.23 [/FONT][FONT=&quot] 36.23 [/FONT][FONT=&quot] 36.23 [/FONT][FONT=&quot] 36.23 [/FONT][FONT=&quot] 36.23 [/FONT][FONT=&quot] 36.23 [/FONT]

​

These rates for the -900 went into effect as of 12/07


900 pay
Year Captain First Officer
1 $61.27 $25.73
2 $63.10 $32.81
3 $65.73 $35.49
4 $67.70 $37.24
5 $69.20 $38.06
6 $71.31 $39.22
7 $73.32 $40.32
8 $75.69 $40.32
9 $78.10 $40.32
10 $80.73 $40.32
11 $83.19 $40.32
12 $85.19 $40.32
13 $88.35 $40.61
14 $91.10 $41.90
15 $93.62 $43.07
16 $95.72 $44.03
17 $97.67 $44.93
18 $99.69 $45.96


A quick snapshot, it appears the majority are getting 3% COLA for the last 5 years and about $2-$4 bucks more for waiting 5 years. With the exception of the top 5% of the seniority list which appears to get nothing.

 

[73belair]

Are there any steps built in for (at least) the next 5 years of the contract duration? Or it just one raise right now?

 

[PCL_128]

Are there any steps built in for (at least) the next 5 years of the contract duration? Or it just one raise right now?

It has a system somewhat similar to the EGL contract. Minimum 1% raises are guaranteed each year, but if the industry average increases, then their rates increase with it, up to a max of 3% each year. Not a horrible system, but not great either.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Yep, such is the industry. Everyone is trying to move on to a "career airline" that has good pay, work rules, and benefits. Until we fix the outsourcing problem, that's not going to go away, Joey. Most people aren't content to spend a career at the regionals. You say yourself that "30%" of the regional guys are lifers (I think that's an exaggeration, but for argument's sake...), so you're admitting that nearly 3/4 of all regional pilots are planning to move on. It's just reality.



Not at all. I don't ridicule that guys that are making a career out of the regionals, I ridicule guys that are doing so and have such an inferiority complex that they've devoted their lives to trying to steal mainline seniority while simultaneously trying to convince everyone that their regional is the best thing since sliced bread.



Not too good. Arrogant mainline pilots wouldn't sit down to talk about it, and arrogant RJ lifers wouldn't consider reasonable integration proposals. People like you killed the idea, Joey.

You are debating a guy that trumpets conservative values all while he sued his union for the biggest socialist welfare distribution of wealth pay out via the RJDC.......