Pinnacle gets TA

[dondk]

From what I've read, they didn't push for flight/duty rigs because it really wouldn't make that much of a difference. Pilots at Pinnacle know that generally, we're scheduled fairly tightly. Yes, there might be a 4 hour sit, but usually a 4 day trip will be scheduled near 29 hours. In the future with future rest rules, now, that might be when duty rigs would be really nice. What bugs me the most is the near lack of reserve rules. A big part of our pilot group will continue to suffer under scheduling's grip.

your scheduled tight because 9E has been understaffed for years. Do you remember the few months of the 32 hours sits in those garden spots? With reduction of flying and staffing that probably will balance out, you will see the ineffective scheduling return. When you have the cream sitting on the 4 day at 28 hours, someone else is doing the 4 day with 4 dhd's worth 12 hours. Overall, rigs would do little for the top 50%, the bottom 50% is a different story?

reserves were negotiated that way about 3 years ago, don't think your MEC hasn't known that all this time. Nothing in the TA is a surprise to
them, NOTHING!

If the MEC does not pass it, that implies the NC may not be up to the task and should be replaced. If the MEC passes it and the pilot group votes it down both the MEC and NC can point fingers it did not meet the majority vote and can send it back.

I see the MEC passing this to the group, I also see some hard sales pitches coming with it. I see this MEC wanting to pass this TA and try to "fix" it in arbitration. They already have cleared out the grievances to "fix" the TA. There are 3 spots left this year for arbitrations for the new contract and up to 6 for next year. The argument will be they can get more from an arbitrator than from sending it back to the table, the pilots get immediate relief with new pay rates and some subtle changes the TA provides. The downside will be there is no guarantee a arbitrator will side with the association.

a big risk in my opinion, but the question to the pilot group will be, do you want your money now or do you want to wait another 2-3 years. Can you live with the problems until they fix them?

There lies the problem, I think too many will be fixated on the cash and not enough fixated on what accepting the TA really means for the entire pilot group. For the pilot who's life is good now, and very little will change other than a few more bucks in the bank, how do you think they will vote?

 

[dondk]

Let me correct your correction: There is no contractual ability to refuse a junior assignment in the current agreement. The "right", if you wish to call it that, is contained in a mgmt. policy.

what are you correcting to my correction? that is basically what I said. You cannot "refuse" a junior assignment. Under the company policy, less than 72 hours there is relief provided if you are not available. Better yet, the current contractual language does not compel a pilot to be available for any junior assignment, the company policy details what it considers to be available.

In the new contractual language, it now defines contractually what is available and what is not and provides relief to refuse such assignment. The trade off is, after so many contractual refusals you are fair game for discipline. The current contract has no discipline tied to junior assignments. The only discipline comes from a policy that management created. Why would you allow discipline to be contractually acceptable?

Raw FOQA data was not used. Mgmt attempted to use the FOQA software and was twarted by the VP Safety. They subsequently went to the FDR and has an engineer read the raw data stream. This incident created the negotiating position that resulted in an agreement in TA that protects pilots even if the FOQA program disappears.

You are correct, it was rose (sp?) data or raw maintenance data. The issue though under LOA 05-05.

[FONT=&quot]“Identifying Data”[/FONT][FONT=&quot] is any data or combination of data which allows recorded or collected flight data to be associated with a specific crew member.[/FONT]

was ignored. Thus creating the position where the pilots ASAP was denied and he was subsequently terminated. Why was it denied? because they had factual data elsewhere. The LOA that supposedly protected the pilot failed. No matter what language the TA has, the bottom line is it already failed and getting language to cover the future does not put that pilot back on the property. Does the TA bring him back? if not, all that was done was readdress something that was already negotiated and failed. At best it is a bandaid to something that should have never occurred, it is not an improvement.

 

[WayBack]

Overall, the contract may not be great, but it is pretty good. And let's be honest: if they reject it, they'll probably be parked and spend another 1-2 years in bargaining. That's certainly a choice they can make, but I hope they make it with the full knowledge that they'll be waiting a long while for a new deal.

Right here is the problem with your typical ALPO rep.
"Here is a POS contract that we have "negotiated". Either you sign it, or live under the old POS until we can draw up another gem of a contract"

PFT128 is so far removed from reality, this clown actually called this contract "industry leading", when in fact it's "Industry Average".
Average pay, work rules and everything else.
It's guys like him who has destroyed this industry. The self serving, greedy POS's. This guy claims to be united in "brotherhood"....but he also bent over the industry by paying a SCAB for his first job. Then he worked on the beautiful contract you PCL pilots fly under now. He loves ALPA so much, he left for a non-ALPA carrier that is now home for many SCABs from EAL, CAL and UAL.
He's just like Obama. "Do as I say, not as I do"

 

[pipejockey]

Could someone from PCL look at their bid packets and tell me how many lines have over 16 days off and how many have less than 16. Your grossly overpaid ceo claims you all average 16 days off a month. Include your reserve lines as well. I am sure your reserves get the minimum days off allowed as they are worked everyday. Management just can't stomach having any pilots at home waiting on edge wondering if they are going to be called or not. Oh, and he claims you only are flying 50 some hours a month. It was in his farce of a testimony before congress.

 

[PCL_128]

If the MEC does not pass it, that implies the NC may not be up to the task and should be replaced.

I disagree with this just a bit. If the MEC does not pass it, the blame really should lie squarely at the feet of the MEC itself. The NC is a committee that works for the MEC. It doesn't make decisions for itself (at least it isn't supposed to), it just follows the direction of the MEC. If the MEC doesn't provide the proper oversight and guidance, then do you really blame the NC, or do you blame the MEC? Personally, I blame the latter. Yes, the NC made bad decisions, but why were they allowed to make those decisions at all?

 

[dondk]

Right here is the problem with your typical ALPO rep.
"Here is a POS contract that we have "negotiated". Either you sign it, or live under the old POS until we can draw up another gem of a contract"

PFT128 is so far removed from reality, this clown actually called this contract "industry leading", when in fact it's "Industry Average".
Average pay, work rules and everything else.
It's guys like him who has destroyed this industry. The self serving, greedy POS's. This guy claims to be united in "brotherhood"....but he also bent over the industry by paying a SCAB for his first job. Then he worked on the beautiful contract you PCL pilots fly under now. He loves ALPA so much, he left for a non-ALPA carrier that is now home for many SCABs from EAL, CAL and UAL.
He's just like Obama. "Do as I say, not as I do"

Sorry, I need to correct you. I don't recall that he ever stated it was industry leading contract. Back when he was on the property, we all knew it would never be industry leading.

How a person gets into this industry is their own choice. What is the difference from the guy who slept in the hangar for no pay to get the opportunity to fly a twin? or the guy who changed the owners oil in his Mercedes for the same opportunity? The CFI at the puppy mills that would rake over students just to burn holes in the sky? None of us are Lilly white in what we did to get into the industry. Heck, we also know at least one pilot that padded their logbook.

Are these examples greedy? are they POS? Did they bend over or bend someone to be where they are today?

We as a group are responsible for destroying our own industry with SJS. My 8 year old looks up at the plane overhead and says "ohh, I'd like to fly that one day". That is the problem, we all want it.

 

[dondk]

I disagree with this just a bit. If the MEC does not pass it, the blame really should lie squarely at the feet of the MEC itself. The NC is a committee that works for the MEC. It doesn't make decisions for itself (at least it isn't supposed to), it just follows the direction of the MEC. If the MEC doesn't provide the proper oversight and guidance, then do you really blame the NC, or do you blame the MEC? Personally, I blame the latter. Yes, the NC made bad decisions, but why were they allowed to make those decisions at all?

good point... they are both to blame. Who do you really point the finger at? I don't think this MEC will point the finger at themselves, I see them pointing the finger at the NC for failing to produce. To say the MEC did not provide direction or guidance is saying the MEC is not listening to the members they are supposedly representing.

Either way it is ugly with no winners, especially the pilot group that has been waiting for many years for something that may not pass.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Sorry, I need to correct you. I don't recall that he ever stated it was industry leading contract. Back when he was on the property, we all knew it would never be industry leading.

How a person gets into this industry is their own choice. What is the difference from the guy who slept in the hangar for no pay to get the opportunity to fly a twin? or the guy who changed the owners oil in his Mercedes for the same opportunity? The CFI at the puppy mills that would rake over students just to burn holes in the sky? None of us are Lilly white in what we did to get into the industry. Heck, we also know at least one pilot that padded their logbook.

Are these examples greedy? are they POS? Did they bend over or bend someone to be where they are today?

We as a group are responsible for destroying our own industry with SJS. My 8 year old looks up at the plane overhead and says "ohh, I'd like to fly that one day". That is the problem, we all want it.

Valid point.... our entire culture is of competition and "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" with hard work, drive and initiative. We condition kids in this country to be self sufficient and autonomous...

Pilot puppy schools are not illegal. They are free market catalyst to obtain a job. How is ERAU/UND really different from GIA.

So young kids do what our culture teaches them to do.... and they go to GIA.... but when they do... they get chided.... suddenly GIA pilots are supposed to be good custodians to the profession... they are supposed to be... dare I say... socialist?

I don't like the pilot puppy schools....they should go away... but let's step back and be real here...

GIA is nothing but a reflection of free market principles.... don't judge someone for being what we value and champion in this country and economy...

 

[WayBack]

Sorry, I need to correct you. I don't recall that he ever stated it was industry leading contract.

Page 2

Industry leading.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Valid point.... our entire culture is of competition and "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" with hard work, drive and initiative. We condition kids in this country to be self sufficient and autonomous...

Actually we getting away from conditioning people to be "self sufficient and autonomous" unfortunately...Your side won and now we are going to teach kids to be reliant on the govt. and unions to take care of them...You got what you want Rez...We would be better off teaching people to be "self sufficient and autonomous".

Pilot puppy schools are not illegal. They are free market catalyst to obtain a job. How is ERAU/UND really different from GIA.

You really don't understand how these are different? One is a 121 airline job that charges pilots to occupy the right seat. The other two are 4 year universities with aviation programs. I'm not surprised that you can't distinguish between the two...

So young kids do what our culture teaches them to do.... and they go to GIA.... but when they do... they get chided.... suddenly GIA pilots are supposed to be good custodians to the profession... they are supposed to be... dare I say... socialist?

Actually they go to places like GIA because our system in this profession is based on seniority and "stepping stone" jobs....To hit paydirt and reach the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, you have to become a mainline widebody pilot...The sooner, the better, from a career earnings standpoint. Time is money in this business, and the fast track "kids" earn more...We did this to ourselves with the union seniority system, and the ALPA negotiated disparity between "regional" wages and widebody mainline wages.

By the way...the folks who got GIA, then PCL, then Air Tran only get chided when they come back and lecture everyone else about doing what is "best for the profession" after they did what was best for them....That's called being a hypocrite..

I don't like the pilot puppy schools....they should go away... but let's step back and be real here...

GIA is nothing but a reflection of free market principles.... don't judge someone for being what we value and champion in this country and economy...

Your right Rez...Let's get real here...

Instead of blaiming people who are "self sufficient", and instead of blaming teaching self sufficient behavior....maybe ALPA should look in the mirror and accept the part they had in getting us to this point...However I don't expect that to happen, and fully expect you and your fellow ALPA cheerleading comrades to blame society for teaching "self sufficient" behavior....Don't worry, Obama and Nancy are making sure we have to rely on them to be taken care of...

 

[dondk]

Page 2

I dunno.. he did say that for the scope language, not for the WHOLE TA. If he did, then I would have called him out as well.

I don't know about the scope language, after we got our head handed to us by the change in position by the arbitrator. That has been classified as top secret.

The post below PCL_128 is from a guy in the know. Take your pick if it is in line with the industry leaders or just a little short.

Leading the industry right behind several other carriers.

 

[PCL_128]

I dunno.. he did say that for the scope language, not for the WHOLE TA.

Exactly.

 

[JoeMerchant]

From what I've seen, even the scope section isn't "industry leading".

 

[PCL_128]

From what I've seen, even the scope section isn't "industry leading".

I highly doubt you've seen anything at all.

 

[WayBack]

From what I've seen, even the scope section isn't "industry leading".

Joe, you have to remember he's so delusional, ALPO can do no wrong.
My friend who is a captain at AirTran has flown with this guy. From what he said, PFT128 is even worse in person. Besides being an ALPO cheerleader, he's annoying as hell.

 

[Flyer1015]

PCL. ASA Signed what (sadly) is probably the industry leading contract now during worse labor relation times. If you guys have anything less then that then what is the point? 75% deadhead!!!?? Are you kidding me? Did you all really sign off on that? WHY!?

We have way more things to be worried about than just 75% deadhead pay.......

 

[73belair]

We have way more things to be worried about than just 75% deadhead pay.......

That was my point. Even such a little thing as this... 100% pay for being at work, couldn't get done.

 

[Flyer1015]

That was my point. Even such a little thing as this... 100% pay for being at work, couldn't get done.

I won't be too wrapped up about DH pay, because 75% sounds about industry average. Who has 100%? XJT, ASA/Skywest, and someone else? I know Eagle has 75% as one example. It's the other stuff in the contract TA that I want to see. I can live with 75% deadhead pay. But I want to see payrates, scheduling section, QOL improvements, scope protection, etc. before I decide yes/no.

 

[BoilerUP]

i won't be too wrapped up about dh pay, because 75% sounds about industry average. Who has 100%? Xjt, asa/skywest, and someone else?

awac.

 

[73belair]

I won't be too wrapped up about DH pay, because 75% sounds about industry average. Who has 100%? XJT, ASA/Skywest, and someone else? I know Eagle has 75% as one example. It's the other stuff in the contract TA that I want to see. I can live with 75% deadhead pay. But I want to see payrates, scheduling section, QOL improvements, scope protection, etc. before I decide yes/no.

But they have had that for YEARS! I wasn't at ASA for the start of the 98 contract, but it was in there. Believe me I'm not saying that that is a no deal item either, but from everything I've heard (from one of your union members) this contract is not a step in the right direction.

p.s. You already only get paid from door closed to door open. Why do you want to not get paid fully for the time you are riding in the back?