Pinnacle gets TA

[20sx]

You will be able to refuse JA similar to how we can refuse extensions now.

There are other companies that get by fine with either JA or extensions. If they make the price right, there are pilots volunteering to do either.

 

[dondk]

You will be able to refuse JA similar to how we can refuse extensions now.

I don't know if I would go THAT far.

Prior to LOA 05-03 you had unlimited extension refusals, that was given up for ASAP and FOQA.

The highlights are down to 2 days per month and down to 9 days per year (from current LOA 03-01).

Anything over 48 hours is now fair game. A pilot must CONSENT is now there(like that means anything), with the allowance to decline 1 per month or 6 in a year. Although, if you exceed that, absent compelling reasons you are looking at a LOW.

Right now you have unlimited JA refusals under 72 hours. JA's refusals were given up for what?

I never understood why give up something that is unlimited to something that is now limited.

 

[JustaNumber]

Prior to LOA 05-03 you had unlimited extension refusals, that was given up for ASAP and FOQA.

You had to give stuff up to get some well-proven safety programs that benefit the company as much if not more than they benefit you? Your management sucks!

 

[dondk]

Correction to my post.

Currently you cannot "refuse" a JA, you can be unavailable (unlimited times) for a JA less than 72 hours. The new language now allows for an outright refusal.

It was a all or none deal, 3 LOA's as a package. ASAP and FOQA were desired by the union, extension language by the company. The ASAP program has been pulled by the union a few times. Mgmt has stated they would love to see it go away. Raw FOQA data was used to fire a pilot about a year ago.

Basically all of those LOA's could be considered a failure.

 

[73belair]

Correction to my post.

Currently you cannot "refuse" a JA, you can be unavailable (unlimited times) for a JA less than 72 hours. The new language now allows for an outright refusal.

It was a all or none deal, 3 LOA's as a package. ASAP and FOQA were desired by the union, extension language by the company. The ASAP program has been pulled by the union a few times. Mgmt has stated they would love to see it go away. Raw FOQA data was used to fire a pilot about a year ago.

Basically all of those LOA's could be considered a failure.

ASAP and FOQA are about to be required by the FAA. Glad your union fought for that one! ASA signed a contract and then worried about dealing with ASAP, which BTW benefits the company as much as the pilots.

 

[callowayhd]

will i get more than 11 days off every month?

and anything more than a 10 hour overnight?

 

[20sx]

Actually, I meant to say other companies do fine WITHOUT JA's or extensions.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Isn't that the point of reserves though??

To continuously abuse 15% of your pilot force as second class citizens?

 

[pipejockey]

will i get more than 11 days off every month?

and anything more than a 10 hour overnight?

You apparently don't work for PCL!! I guess you didn't hear the CEO before congress stating that the average days off are 16 days and that they have crew schedulers work with the pilots creating trips that provide for adequate rest! I have a feeling you are jealous and were probably turned down by PCL and would love to work there!

 

[XJohXJ]

Isn't that the point of reserves though??

No, that is absolutely not the point of reserves. If any union treats a segment as "less than" or "second class" or "available for outright abuse", that union opens itself up to equal protection action.

Reserves have every same right to QOL, pay, and safe scheduling as any other pilot. Period.

 

[Raoul Duke]

You have absolutely no understanding of how DFR claims work. Reserves do not have the same rights as lineholders period. They are on call for trips (which must be legal trips) and do not have same schedule benefits as lineholders. DFR has nothing to do with this. If you want a primer on DFR claims, take a look at USAPA, they do an excelent job of showing how to breach the duty of fair representation.

 

[XJohXJ]

Yeah, your right. I overspoke on that one. Gotta stop coming here. However, reserves are there to cover flying. Not to be abused.

 

[Grinder10]

I don't know if I would go THAT far.

Prior to LOA 05-03 you had unlimited extension refusals, that was given up for ASAP and FOQA.

The highlights are down to 2 days per month and down to 9 days per year (from current LOA 03-01).

Anything over 48 hours is now fair game. A pilot must CONSENT is now there(like that means anything), with the allowance to decline 1 per month or 6 in a year. Although, if you exceed that, absent compelling reasons you are looking at a LOW.

Right now you have unlimited JA refusals under 72 hours. JA's refusals were given up for what?

I never understood why give up something that is unlimited to something that is now limited.

All I had heard was that we will be able to refuse JA's. I will read the whole agreement before I vote, but at this point I have very little faith that it will be worth a damn. And besides the fact that the $10 mill signing bonus is completely inadequate, this split payment b.s. will not work.

 

[FightingIrish]

I thought Obama was going to fix this with the NMB? PCL128 what are your thoughts? Shouldn't things be better than under the Bush NMB? I am hearing this is worse than the ASA contract. What the heck? Why?

 

[PCL_128]

I thought Obama was going to fix this with the NMB? PCL128 what are your thoughts? Shouldn't things be better than under the Bush NMB? I am hearing this is worse than the ASA contract. What the heck? Why?

Things are better under the Obama NMB. Much better. There are several issues here, though.

1. PCL ALPA had the same issue that Mesa did about 7 years ago: scope. The Colgan operation is hanging over their heads. An arbitrator ruled in their favor, but he refused to enforce the ruling by requiring the company to integrate the lists. In order to fix it, they had to negotiate for it. Scope takes a lot of bargaining leverage.

2. A huge amount of the agreement was already TA'd under the old Bush NMB when they didn't have a whole lot of leverage at all. Once a new NMB comes in you can't just pull old TAs off the table. They're already done. Once you've accepted something like 75% deadhead pay to try to move the process along when the NMB isn't helping you, you can't take it back once you've got a more favorable NMB.

3. The contract was so horrible in the first place that it was never reasonable to expect an industry-leading contract to come out of these negotiations. You guys had an industry-average agreement and were trying to make improvements from that. The Pinnacle guys were starting from 10 steps back, and there was just no way they could catch up in a single agreement. They had to fix something as basic as block-or-better, for heaven's sake!

Overall, the contract may not be great, but it is pretty good. And let's be honest: if they reject it, they'll probably be parked and spend another 1-2 years in bargaining. That's certainly a choice they can make, but I hope they make it with the full knowledge that they'll be waiting a long while for a new deal.

 

[FightingIrish]

1. PCL ALPA had the same issue that Mesa did about 7 years ago: scope. The Colgan operation is hanging over their heads. An arbitrator ruled in their favor, but he refused to enforce the ruling by requiring the company to integrate the lists. In order to fix it, they had to negotiate for it. Scope takes a lot of bargaining leverage.

I am well aware of the scope issue. However ALPA told us that a single list with Skywest wasn't achievable. Now Pinnacle gets it. WTFO?

3. The contract was so horrible in the first place that it was never reasonable to expect an industry-leading contract to come out of these negotiations. You guys had an industry-average agreement and were trying to make improvements from that. The Pinnacle guys were starting from 10 steps back, and there was just no way they could catch up in a single agreement. They had to fix something as basic as block-or-better, for heaven's sake!

Where does it end then? We have always pushed for industry leading here at ASA. CMR has also. Then we hear that PCL is "just trying to catch up". I thought we were trying to stick together. The hell with that. It's clear that Pinnacle is trying to capture the future flying and any growth.

Overall, the contract may not be great, but it is pretty good. And let's be honest: if they reject it, they'll probably be parked and spend another 1-2 years in bargaining. That's certainly a choice they can make, but I hope they make it with the full knowledge that they'll be waiting a long while for a new deal.

How can they be parked? We have a Democrat in the White House. A Democratic NMB. A Democratic Congress. How could they be parked given what little they make? It doesn't make sense.

 

[PCL_128]

I am well aware of the scope issue. However ALPA told us that a single list with Skywest wasn't achievable. Now Pinnacle gets it. WTFO?

I think you've been a bit misinformed. My understanding is that Pinnacle hasn't necessarily achieved a single list. Last I heard, there are a few hoops to jump through to get to that process, including the approval of the CJC pilots. With Skywest not being ALPA, it's a much different situation for you trying to get a single list than it is for PCL.

Where does it end then? We have always pushed for industry leading here at ASA. CMR has also.

Why did you guys not achieve the industry-leading contract? Pinnacle certainly pushed for it, but was unable to achieve it, just like you were. You aren't always successful at getting industry-leading. Very few are.

Then we hear that PCL is "just trying to catch up". I thought we were trying to stick together. The hell with that. It's clear that Pinnacle is trying to capture the future flying and any growth.

I'm sorry, but you're completely out in left field on this. The Pinnacle pilots are pretty upset that this deal isn't better, actually. I'm not even sure it's going to get past their MEC. The idea that they're trying to capture flying is absurd. That's never been the MO of the Pinnacle pilot group.

How can they be parked? We have a Democrat in the White House. A Democratic NMB. A Democratic Congress. How could they be parked given what little they make? It doesn't make sense.

Having a Democrat in the White House doesn't mean that you get whatever the hell you want. It means that the NMB carries out the process as it was originally intended when the RLA was written. What was the primary goal of the RLA when it was conceived? Allowing organized labor to achieve CBAs without unnecessarily disrupting the transportation system. If you come to a TA and then reject it, the NMB isn't just going to let you strike, because that's not the intent of the Act. The intent is to try to get you to a ratified deal without disrupting commerce, if possible. That means that the NMB will park you so you can collect your thoughts, put together a new NC possibly, and get prepared for new bargaining sessions. You can't go directly from failed TA to a strike. Even a pro-labor NMB would call you crazy for that.

 

[dondk]

All I had heard was that we will be able to refuse JA's. I will read the whole agreement before I vote, but at this point I have very little faith that it will be worth a damn. And besides the fact that the $10 mill signing bonus is completely inadequate, this split payment b.s. will not work.

What I wrote is from the actual language, you can refuse a JA once a month/ six in a year. They can't tag on a unsolicited call to CS, but nothing about CT. If this is passed, they can JA everyone now, including #1 senior guy (hey, he can refuse it). When the peeps start capping out monthly or annually there is no where to hide. Everyone is guaranteed of doing a JA with the language.


read what PCL_128 wrote over and over, one of the best statements on what you can EXPECT on the T/A.

2. A huge amount of the agreement was already TA'd under the old Bush NMB when they didn't have a whole lot of leverage at all. Once a new NMB comes in you can't just pull old TAs off the table. They're already done. Once you've accepted something like 75% deadhead pay to try to move the process along when the NMB isn't helping you, you can't take it back once you've got a more favorable NMB.

3. The contract was so horrible in the first place that it was never reasonable to expect an industry-leading contract to come out of these negotiations. You guys had an industry-average agreement and were trying to make improvements from that. The Pinnacle guys were starting from 10 steps back, and there was just no way they could catch up in a single agreement. They had to fix something as basic as block-or-better, for heaven's sake!

the language is already 3+ years old and AT THE TIME, what they got was the best the could have gotten. Not what it should be or what it "could" be today.

I would expect the T/A will be slightly disappointing to those waiting for the 4+ years. There was no way for it to be industry leading to start with, if signed, you have another 5 years before you can go back to get another step closer to industry leading.

There is no one anyone can blame, the company played this well.

 

[73belair]

PCL. ASA Signed what (sadly) is probably the industry leading contract now during worse labor relation times. If you guys have anything less then that then what is the point? 75% deadhead!!!?? Are you kidding me? Did you all really sign off on that? WHY!?

 

[PCL_128]

PCL. ASA Signed what (sadly) is probably the industry leading contract now during worse labor relation times. If you guys have anything less then that then what is the point? 75% deadhead!!!?? Are you kidding me? Did you all really sign off on that? WHY!?

First, it's not "you all," because I no longer work there.

Second, the ASA contract still lagged the XJT deal when you signed it, and it still does. It was not industry-leading, although it is very good.

I agree that 75% deadhead is BS. But again, the alternative is voting it down and waiting 1-2 years for something that will maybe be better. I honestly don't know what my vote would be if I were still there, but I want everyone to make an informed decision and understand that the NMB isn't going to just release them if they reject the deal. This process will go on for a while longer.

 

[Flyprdu]

I agree that 75% deadhead is BS. But again, the alternative is voting it down and waiting 1-2 years for something that will maybe be better. I honestly don't know what my vote would be if I were still there, but I want everyone to make an informed decision and understand that the NMB isn't going to just release them if they reject the deal. This process will go on for a while longer.

Since the new contract will have a lifespan of 10 years or so... then waiting another year to get it right will not be that much of a loss.

I am disappointed at the posturing and excuse making that is already started about this contract. Hopefully the MEC will not even let the pilot group see it.

 

[PCL_128]

Since the new contract will have a lifespan of 10 years or so... then waiting another year to get it right will not be that much of a loss.

If the Democratic Administration gets elected to another term, then you won't see another 5-year bargaining cycle for your next contract. Historically, the average time spent in mediation is only about 2-2.5 years. Only under the Bush Administration did that start to get screwed up.

What is the duration on this TA, by the way? That's one of the things I haven't heard yet.

 

[CopilotDoug]

If the Democratic Administration gets elected to another term, then you won't see another 5-year bargaining cycle for your next contract. Historically, the average time spent in mediation is only about 2-2.5 years. Only under the Bush Administration did that start to get screwed up.

What is the duration on this TA, by the way? That's one of the things I haven't heard yet.

And the PCL pilots are to believe this why? The fact of the matter is that we have your "perfect storm" (Democratic Administration) and the excuses keep coming as they always have. But we understand...ALPA promised the pilots more than the Dems could deliver...and now ALPA needs to come up with excuses for the lack of change.

It's funny, though...9E management is pissing on the pilots and you're telling them it's raining. How about you step down from your soapbox and let the 9E pilots decide what is and what isn't an acceptable TA? Sounds to me like this TA doesn't exactly fall in line with ALPA's pipedream of "Pattern Bargaining"...unless that pattern is one crappy contract after another?

 

[Smarta$$]

And the PCL pilots are to believe this why? The fact of the matter is that we have your "perfect storm" (Democratic Administration) and the excuses keep coming as they always have. But we understand...ALPA promised the pilots more than the Dems could deliver...and now ALPA needs to come up with excuses for the lack of change.

It's funny, though...9E management is pissing on the pilots and you're telling them it's raining. How about you step down from your soapbox and let the 9E pilots decide what is and what isn't an acceptable TA? Sounds to me like this TA doesn't exactly fall in line with ALPA's pipedream of "Pattern Bargaining"...unless that pattern is one crappy contract after another?

Just out of curiosity, what is your detailed solution to improving pilot pay and job protections in this industry?

 

[PCL_128]

And the PCL pilots are to believe this why? The fact of the matter is that we have your "perfect storm" (Democratic Administration) and the excuses keep coming as they always have. But we understand...ALPA promised the pilots more than the Dems could deliver...and now ALPA needs to come up with excuses for the lack of change.

Lack of change? The PCL pilots have a TA within 7 months of Obama taking office after slogging through no progress for 5 years, and you don't see change?! You're blind as a f&^#ing bat.

Sounds to me like this TA doesn't exactly fall in line with ALPA's pipedream of "Pattern Bargaining"...unless that pattern is one crappy contract after another?

PCL's contract has been one of the laggards for a while in the regional industry, so getting it up to industry-average along with some excellent scope is certainly helpful to the pattern. What stopped ASA from being able to get an industry-leading contract a couple of years ago was the fact that there were several laggards in the industry (TSA, PCL, MAG). If those carriers had had industry-average agreements, then achieving an industry-leading agreement at places like ASA, XJT, and CMR would be a lot easier. Pattern bargaining is a hell of a lot more complicated than your simplistic notions of "highest pay +1%!"

Just out of curiosity, what is your detailed solution to improving pilot pay and job protections in this industry?

He's just like Joey: he doesn't have any solutions, just mindless complaining.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Just out of curiosity, what is your detailed solution to improving pilot pay and job protections in this industry?

To let the pilots of each carrier negotiate what they deem to be a fair contract. The last thing I would buy into is a pipedream involving every pilot group holding hands and singing "If I could teach the world to sing"

Sorry, but that isn't going to happen.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Lack of change? The PCL pilots have a TA within 7 months of Obama taking office after slogging through no progress for 5 years, and you don't see change?! You're blind as a f&^#ing bat.

If it makes you feel good to give politicians credit for coincidences...be my guest.

Pattern bargaining is a hell of a lot more complicated than your simplistic notions of "highest pay +1%!"

Pattern bargaining is a dreamed up feel-good concept. Where did I mention highest pay plus 1%? All I'm saying is to let the 9E pilots decide what works for them, without having every other ALPA carrier out there telling them what's really in their best interest. Or is that too fair?

He's just like Joey: he doesn't have any solutions, just mindless complaining.

Hmmmm...9E pilots determining what's a fair contract...nah...that's not pragmatic at all!

 

[PCL_128]

If it makes you feel good to give politicians credit for coincidences...be my guest.

You should probably talk to some people that deal directly with the NMB before you assume what is a coincidence and what is not.

Pattern bargaining is a dreamed up feel-good concept. Where did I mention highest pay plus 1%? All I'm saying is to let the 9E pilots decide what works for them, without having every other ALPA carrier out there telling them what's really in their best interest. Or is that too fair?

Hmmmm...9E pilots determining what's a fair contract...nah...that's not pragmatic at all!

I have no problem with the PCL pilots determining what is acceptable them. In fact, that's pretty much what I've been saying throughout this thread. Make an educated decision on what is best. Pretty simple.

 

[Smarta$$]

To let the pilots of each carrier negotiate what they deem to be a fair contract. The last thing I would buy into is a pipedream involving every pilot group holding hands and singing "If I could teach the world to sing"

Sorry, but that isn't going to happen.

Just what I thought. Nothing usefull what so ever.

 

[MINIME]

Lack of change? The PCL pilots have a TA within 7 months of Obama taking office after slogging through no progress for 5 years, and you don't see change?! You're blind as a f&^#ing bat.

Sadly, this is one of our profession's worst problems, most of us simply don't understand something as basic as the NMB. We don't understand how it's appointed, who is appointed, or what the appointee's agenda might be. Plus, the huge impact it has on our leverage at the bargaining table.

It's very simple gents, if management doesn't think you'll be allowed to strike, then they have no reason to settle. If I was management I'd do the same thing! Why not? Why pay when there's no legal way for you to make me pay. It has nothing to do with ethics or happy go lucky feelings. It has everything to do with dollars and the bottom line. At least at most places anyway.